Talon rework vs Old Talon.

Shiznyte··4 votes·6,565 views

Anyone think that Talon's rework was actually a slight nerf? I wanna start with the Pro's of the rework first, because yes there are some nice parts too his new kit as well as bad ones.

First off he has great early damage (if he can proc his passive) and great Single target assassination potential, which is nice for killing the pesky ADC's in the ADC meta we're currently in. He isn't just a farm till 6 then dominate the lane he has kill potential starting at level 2 but with 2 points into his Rake at level 3 he is very dangerous.

Second his assassin's path is a great escape tool for a champion who had to use his Escape tool to go in (formerly Cut Throat and Shadow Assault were his escape tools as well as damage tools) But it offers nothing in Lane so i Don't end up getting it till level 4 because its pretty useless in lane.

Third his new Q has a Forced Melee Crit which is great for melee match ups and gives him quite a bit of power early.

My problems with Talon are with his new Gap closer. It is extremely slow and Predictable and actually makes laning vs Mages mid harder than it used to be. Before hand you could use Cut throat to dodge skills because it was a blink, and if you dodge a spell with the Blink you were in great position to make a good trade. Vs any mage with CC its actually pretty hard for Talon to get in on them Because the Q has such a Slow animation and is not a Dash which can easily be Stopped by a Charm, a Scatter the Weak, or a Tectonic Disruption. Also While Trying to gap close on the ADC it is very easy to get Stopped by a support, So while yes single target damage is up, you are much less likely to get it off do to the predictability of his Kit.

A lot of people may say Cut throat was a very predictable skill as well it always blinked you behind them, so a good player would hold off on CC until Cut throat was used, then use it behind them. The counter to that point was if you were a good Talon you can hold Cut Throat Walk up to them and Rake, Shadow assault, do your damage and if you needed to Kill Pounce with Cut Throat. At any point in time you could Use his old E as a Dodge, while yes it was a sorta Difficult play to do, if you dodged a CC with Cut throat chances are you got your kill. (I understand the first version of Cut Throat had a Silence and I agree that was way to OP and left very little counter play if maxed because the Silence Duration was too long for anyone to make a move.)

His old Rake had very limited range and did less damage early on but applied it's slow on this first hit as well as the second hit and had a much Faster Travel time. Currently Rake is slightly Further in Range but Doesn't come back Right away and the Missile speed had been toned down quite a bit. The slow also Only applies on the way back and is Very easy to dodge because of the timing it takes to return to Talon. His R missile Speed has also been slowed down, but it has and interesting Trade off of being easier to control the Damage, so while yes it has had an AoE damage nerf it got a single Target damage buff so Overall i think the New Shadow Assault is better.

I think many of the New Talon changes made him a Worse Mid laner, But a better Top laner depending on the match ups (he does much better vs melee than ranged) But over all I think he is harder to play vs Ranged Champions and not actually a viable pick into Most Mid match ups. I still Enjoy both versions of the Champion, but started to realize as you climb to plat or higher Talon becomes less and less viable in the Mid lane He is better early which is great for Snowballing, but is worse late game, so if you don't end the game ASAP you start to drop off and it is a very hard Drop off. So I was just curious too Talon players out there, do you like the New Talon or the Old Talon better?

6 Comments

Alex h87212 votes

I never had the chance to play old talon, but am mastery 7 on new talon, and from what I understand you are correct in saying his rework made him stronger early and stronger against melee, while making him weaker against ranged champs, especially control mages since he has no reliable way to dodge their skills. Also the rework gated a lot of his burst through his passive (similarly to the leblanc rework), and in mid/lategame teamfights/skirmishes it feels really bad to get your passive prepped but not be able to proc it because you got slowed/cc'd and couldn't get the autoattack off, so your target ends up living with a bit of hp.

Imo talon and khazix have too similar of a niche, they both excell at deleting an isolated target, having the 1v1 advantage vs most champs and tools to escape if the fight is turning bad. But if the enemy team groups of smartly and positions well it makes going in to attempt an assassination almost certain death and we are in a teamfight meta right now in which assassins are very weak.

I believe in a different meta talon could and would be a highly viable pick, though this is in part due to the versatility of AD itemization, and being able to comfortably buy item 3156 item 3026 for added durability to make talon nigh unbeatable 1v1 in a sidelane. But that would require a meta where split pushing was a more effective tactic and currently it is suboptimal in our current "protect the adc" meta.

Shiznyte1 votes

Do you think TP Talon is Viable? not in this meta but just overall do you think he could get away with Running TP and not ignite?

Alex h87212 votes

Short answer is Absolutely yes. But I would replace flash with ignite, and only in some matchups

Longer answer: Ignite is best for that early pressure (cheese) and dealing w/ enemies w/ very strong sustain, by the time you've built item 3142 you are highly likely to have kill pressure on your lane opponent w/ full combo/passive proc without ignite, especially after using W to poke them down a bit.

Assuming we are talking about toplane, there are actually some matchups where I would say you can comfortably go summoner 12 summoner 14 , for example into Camille Fiora and certain other melee matchups where the lane opponent is not ridiculously tanky. Obviously with these summoner choices you'll want to play safe and ward smartly to avoid ganks before 6 when you get the escape tool of your ult.

Though in tank lanes where they have strong gank assist for their jungler and you have significantly reduced kill pressure (because tank) you are far better off running summoner 12 summoner 4. In the carry/splitpush matchups i mentioned before you take ignite over flash for the advantage in the 1v1, and because the opposing carry doesn't have the amount of CC you would have to flash out of as a tank does. But in these tank matchups you are moreso going to want to waveclear and roam and push the enemy jungler out of his topside jg (preferably with the help of your jungler), and moving together with another team member makes ignite's kill pressure less necessary. Plus with this strat you will be in enemy territory more often and having flash to get into range to walljump/flash over a wall thats on cooldown is very good to have.

Imo you want TP in both situations because vs a carry matchup it helps you get back to lane to keep applying splitpush pressure, and in the tank matchup you want it to TP flank the backline from a deep ward.

Shiznyte2 votes

I like this Idea a lot actually. Treat him like a Fizz Top lane sorta... very insightful!

Wukong Airlines2 votes

Talon is strongest early - Mid game, but when teamfights start kicking you'll be completely uselss unless you burn your summs and get a kill if lucky, Tank support + support items meta + DD P.D meta is not in favor of Talon at all.

Old Talon was way better because he actually had a good AOE damage which benefits your team by dealing damage to more than 1 target. know that your Damage is enhanced on the target you E at, new talon lost all of this in exchange of his passive which has the most damage and your only way to kill someone.

Shiznyte1 votes

Yeah i agree with this completely! I don't want this post to come off is Talon is bad... because he isn't, but Comparing him to his old self I just think he is Weaker over the course of an entire game. Old Talon also had a lot more room to out play people than New talon does currently.

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