faiied reworks: zilean

Final Raid Boss·Apr 25, 2015·50 votes·20,374 views

+1 rito

edit: can't fix title apparently

146 Comments

narkApr 25, 201562 votes

Interestingly enough, one of Zilean 's biggest problems (at least for me) is that old Zil was super fun to play, but horrendously annoying to play against.

Here's the train of thought of the old Zilean player:

Ooh look at that. That moron carry is within 500 yards, let me take away half their health with 3 buttons real quick. Oh, would you look at that, my tank/adc/idiot friend is dying, press R. Boom, FAKER!

Contrast that with the enemy's thoughts, same game:

Oh shit did I just walk in range of Zilean, fuck me (report for unskilled). ... Hell yeah we caught their tank/adc/idiot friend warding and now he's dead! Oh shit, it was a bait, he's still alive, we're fucked. 5 v 5 and we have no CC.

Old Zilean induced these kinds of feelings all the time, I suspect. New Zilean kinda turns the tables around. I think he's much more interesting to play against: dodging skill shots, watching out for his zone control, his ulti isn't on CD all the fucking time. However, he's not as fun to play.

I think he just needs time. Overall, I think he's in a healthier state, but may need adjustments.

disregardableApr 25, 201516 votes

Why is making him completely unplayable a more healthy state? He wasn't exactly dominating the meta. If you weren't able to rework him properly, you may as well have just disabled him or left him alone.

shalecApr 25, 20158 votes

Did you not pay any attention in Season 4? He was like a pick or ban in competitive.

disregardableApr 25, 20159 votes

In solo-queue his pick rate was under 5%.

DrNovaApr 25, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OuLarldV,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-04-25T20:43:50.472+0000)

Why is making him completely unplayable a more healthy state? He wasn't exactly dominating the meta. If you weren't able to rework him properly, you may as well have just disabled him or left him alone.

This.

LarasoApr 25, 20153 votes

How does the original post that you quoted have -1, but your response of "This" has +2?

I swear...

DrNovaApr 26, 20152 votes

lol. Cause forums bring out the trolls.

Masked PariahApr 25, 20156 votes

I agree with this post, but maybe more range (very little but enough to get the job done) on the q would be nice. I like a Zileans play style of being hard to use but when used properly its effective.

narkApr 25, 201512 votes

Yeah there's certainly some kinks to work out. I used to play a crap ton of Zil when I first started playing the game, so he's certainly near and dear, but I find him less fun to play currently. Damage, range might be what he needs to get his win rate closer to 50%. But I wonder if there's some mechanical changes he might need to make him, fun. And I'm not talkin' old Zilean crap on your enemies when you're ahead, get shat on when you're behind. I'm talkin' this champion just feels fun to play, even if I don't absolutely wreck my enemies.

Masked PariahApr 25, 20151 votes

I dont know why but maybe give him his w working back to his ult, BUT having a longer CD on his ult. This might help him support or make him be CD oriented mage. The change I have in mind is where his ult will be shorter when having CD and spamming W than the current/live zilean. As well as like you said buffing the damage because he only has 1 move that does damage.

narkApr 25, 20158 votes

Yeah I mean part of the problem is this question: "What is Zilean, really? Is he a support mage, nuking mage, utility carry, etc..."

Being able to fulfill many roles is not necessarily a bad thing. Look at Lux, Orianna, and Lulu who can fulfill multiple roles within a team composition. Zilean could certainly be among them. But traditionally, I believe he's suffered from being TOO good in one area, and lacking in the others. One second Faker's playing him as a utility carry, the next we see him support, the next see him for no other reason than the fact that Faker played him. I think his numbers/kit just need to settle him comfortably into a utility carry role. Play him support, play him mid. He won't be overpowered in one role or the other, but be suitable in both. This is perfect world kind of thinking, look how hard it has been to balance Lulu, and a lot of people have complained about Ori's dominance in competitive play.

Very Hard EngageApr 25, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Yeah I mean part of the problem is this question: "What is Zilean, really? Is he a support mage, nuking mage, utility carry, etc..."

Being able to fulfill many roles is not necessarily a bad thing. Look at Lux, Orianna, and Lulu who can fulfill multiple roles within a team composition. Zilean could certainly be among them. But traditionally, I believe he's suffered from being TOO good in one area, and lacking in the others. One second Faker's playing him as a utility carry, the next we see him support, the next see him for no other reason than the fact that Faker played him. I think his numbers/kit just need to settle him comfortably into a utility carry role. Play him support, play him mid. He won't be overpowered in one role or the other, but be suitable in both. This is perfect world kind of thinking, look how hard it has been to balance Lulu, and a lot of people have complained about Ori's dominance in competitive play.

and whats veigar? because he was a single target burst mage

YOU BEEN WARNEDApr 26, 20155 votes

Ok, review what Zilean did prior to the rework.

As a support he was picked for the revive and slows.

As a midlaner he was picked because of damage presence and revive.

So you have to keep these things to stay true to Zilean . The double bomb stun wasn't necessary, it works for support Zilean better so you can kinda justify the massive slow nerf for that, but not quite. What about the revive nerfs? ( in terms of W and duration ) both Zileans suffered for that one, which is a core identity for him at this point.

Right now, neither support or mid Zilean is in a good spot. I'm not happy with the changes.

As a midlaner, the double stun means nothing to me because when I accomplish it I'm left to auto attack the target ( no additional benefit to the most difficult combo to land in the game, IT IS THE MOST DIFFICULT TO LAND AGAINST ANYONE WHO IS NOT A POTATO )

Look at Sion , he has a bunch of skillshots and /some/ of them land even though they are telegraphed. Zilean bombs shouldn't have become "raw" skillshots, if you wanted to change them they probably should have been a different spell suitable for a time mage.

What I mean by "raw skillshots" is that they need additional design to work; the first bomb must slow the zone of control area or something; his kit doesn't synergize with itself, it is very awkward.

You need to put a lot more work into Zilean, don't leave his kit the way it is please. Number changes on Q won't fix his midlane needs, number changes on E & R can fix his support needs only.

AbyssphereApr 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yeah there's certainly some kinks to work out. I used to play a crap ton of Zil when I first started playing the game, so he's certainly near and dear, but I find him less fun to play currently. Damage, range might be what he needs to get his win rate closer to 50%. But I wonder if there's some mechanical changes he might need to make him, fun. And I'm not talkin' old Zilean crap on your enemies when you're ahead, get shat on when you're behind. I'm talkin' this champion just feels fun to play, even if I don't absolutely wreck my enemies.

I think the fact that his W is just a way to make his Q and E more powerful is the main problem with him being unfun. He just can only really do so much with 3 abilities, especially when his passive has no gameplay to it at all. Buff-wise I'd ask for the radius on his bomb's attachment circle being wider/longer duration on E but fun-wise I think his passive should be changed completely, and maybe something to his W too.

ZarxisApr 25, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Yeah there's certainly some kinks to work out. I used to play a crap ton of Zil when I first started playing the game, so he's certainly near and dear, but I find him less fun to play currently. Damage, range might be what he needs to get his win rate closer to 50%. But I wonder if there's some mechanical changes he might need to make him, fun. And I'm not talkin' old Zilean crap on your enemies when you're ahead, get shat on when you're behind. I'm talkin' this champion just feels fun to play, even if I don't absolutely wreck my enemies.

You're on the right track. I really hope that he gets some follow-up work besides flat buffing. Numbers changes might enhance his winrate, but they won't make him more fun to play or a "better champion."

His Q is an extremely fun and rewarding skill, but it really needs its targeting priorities fixed— it sucks to watch your second bomb attach to an enemy champion instead of the minion you wanted to use for a stun. Increasing Q's projectile speed would be reasonable considering just how small the sticky AOE is. It's like playing Heimerdinger with only his E, and it only does damage if you land it in the tiny "sweet spot" center.

Zilean's W might as well be scrapped and replaced with a new skill now that its only use is to limit when he can double-Q/E. Zilean's playstyle is relatively fun (less so when your bombs don't work correctly and you can't afford to get close enough to slow enemies), but he's still extremely binary due to the fact that he only has one way to damage his opponents. I think he'd really benefit from a thematically-fitting damage-over-time skill (perhaps a skillshot AOE of healing over time or damage over time, depending on what team the champion walking through it is on). The current W is clunky, non-thematic, handicapping, and a waste of potential.

Zilean's new E... Is just a super-nerfed version of his old one. Did Riot decide that his ability to perma-speed himself too much? I thought that was the best thing about his E. The soft caps on movespeed (both for slowing and speeding up) ruin intensity of the skill (99%), and the reduced duration means that Zilean can't go fast all the time. The reduced range means slowing enemies is dangerous, but it's practically a necessity for making sure you get off a double-Q stun.

Chronoshift is perfectly fine as-is. The reduced duration of the buff means Zilean players have to be more careful about putting it on someone.

Heightened Learning/Zilean's passive needs to go. It's non-interactive. It's not really thematic. It doesn't help mid Zilean as much as it helps support Zilean. It gives Zilean (and his ADC, if he's supporting) a sort of invisible advantage over his opponents. I'm not sure what I would replace it with (perhaps an aura or on-cast effect that lowers allied cooldowns/increases enemy cooldowns?), but I am convinced that it needs replacing.

Another thing... Why was Zilean's attack range reduced when he was reworked? His autoattacks weren't problematic before his rework (he wasn't a Lich Bane user or auto-reliant). Are there concerns that he would use Spellthief's Edge too well?

narkApr 25, 20159 votes

Hmm... I think you're asking some good questions.

First things first, even though I'm a Rioter, I am speaking as a fellow Zil player. I have no influence over any decisions made as to his kit (though I am certainly empowered to suggest changes).

With that out of the way, let me try and answer some of these questions. (not in any particular order)

I agree with your thoughts on the passive. I get the idea thematically, I can speed up/slow down the amount of time it takes you to learn something. But its use in game is rather limited, and is almost nullified when Zilean goes mid.
E. I have no insight to the context of his E changes.
Auto range change, no insight here either. I didn't even know about this change. I certainly don't find him a problem from an auto attack perspective. I've personally never seen a Zil build in a SR game. Maybe it was a support problem?

Next time I hangout with some of my design colleagues, I'll ask these questions (hopefully they're reading this now :p)

decembraApr 26, 20152 votes

I'm so glad there's a Rioter that actually likes Zilean too. There's hope!

A passive like Nami's suits Zilean perfectly because all of them, save Rewind, can target allies. Fortunately, Rewind has synergy with that type of passive as well. Giving Zilean a reason to land Q on allies expands his playstyle a bit and blatantly suggests synergy with tanks and fighters, or even characters with Dash abilities, and gives him some more strategic worth. For example, what if landing your abilities on an ally restores their mana and gives them increased experience for a duration? That's perfect for mid-lane Zilean, without taking away from support Zilean. It's also wonderful for that duo partner who picks Amumu - I'll be your friend, sad boy!
I think his E is perfectly fine, except that your teammates barely even notice or thank you for it most of the time.
I'll let you handle this, but I do miss that extra range.

New:

Zilean's Q. I'm actually quite happy with it. Quality of life changes and interaction with a new passive will reinforce this as Zilean's bread and butter.
W - Rewind. This is also important. Can we give Zilean some form of durability outside of R - Chronoshift? I suggest that on cast, Rewind also gives you a buff that reduces the damage you take from the next source of damage from an enemy champion's ability or basic attack. This is more for the skilled, timing-focused player, but it's also a strong suggestion to the average Zilean player that when you are aware of that timing window, you can negate that incredible urge to cast your Chronoshift on yourself and be reported by your ADC. Lolz.

SpecterVonBarenApr 26, 20153 votes

What if his passive gave some health regeneration (And maybe mana regeneration) for allies, and caused a dot if used on an enemy? To symbolize rejuvenation of being restored to youthfulness or being withered with age?

decembraApr 28, 20151 votes

The DoT I can get on board with, definitely. Not the healing though. It can be justified thematically but functionally it just becomes too much utility.

SpecterVonBarenApr 28, 20153 votes

Then perhaps just the mana regen? We could use a support that can give mana ever since the Soraka changes.

decembraApr 29, 20152 votes

"For example, what if landing your abilities on an ally restores their mana and gives them increased experience for a duration?" - Decembra

I like the mana regen direction, it's definitely in line with his kit. It should be an interactive "restore" though, and not just a passive mana regen buff. Zilean's current passive is too hidden and he's not that obvious in what he does if you aren't able to read his ability tooltips, so I still believe that a passive like Nami's is the best option for Zilean to stand out more - to your allies as well.

The animation for the buff could make it look like the ally has four sets of runic numbers on the ground around them that "roll up" at their own individual paces into the hundreds, thousands, hundred thousands, etc. Runic roll counters, basically. The numbers could be a bold, but not too bright, glowing-gold color. (I'm not implying that he's a numbers mage.)

This is a roll counter

What do you think?

TL;DR

Zilean's passive restores mana to any ally affected by his abilities, and grants them a buff that increases their experience gained by a % for the duration of the ability.

Note: The duration of the buff is probably longer by a fraction of a second so that it accounts for the Q - Time Bomb killing a unit.

HellioningApr 25, 201515 votes

Honestly, I feel that the Zilean rework was shortsighted. Essentially, they saw the problem you outlined in your first post (this champion feels terrible to play against because he can point and click you to death) and...I'm going to say took the lazy way out (this champion no longer has point and click! COUNTERPLAY!)

He probably could have benefitted from a bigger rework than he got. He has exactly one damaging spell, which means he either maxes that first and has lane prescence, but is weaker later when his damage drops off and he has nothing to fall back on, or he maxes his utility (E) first, and does a bunch of fun speed-up/slow-down things later on, but in exchange paints a big neon target on his head for his opponents (I CANNOT HURT YOU! GO IN ALL THE TIME!)

I'd move his W to his passive slot and give him a new W with some damage on it; maybe replacing the double bomb for stun (since I don't think any other champion requires you to land two skillshots for a stun) with a Q-W for stun (meaning you can still avoid being stunned, but if Zil does land a bomb, he gets to capitalize off that without having to deal with Qs wonky physics.)

narkApr 25, 20156 votes

Yeah there's certainly a slight problem there. Though I don't know if it's as drastic as it might seem. I don't know if the the problem is he only has one damage spell. Sona and Braum's ultimates do damage, yes, but I doubt there are very many people out there (now that URF is over) casting Sona ulti for damage. I personally think it'd be cool if we had more champions that had little to no damage output directly but majorly impact the game.

I mean, look at Thresh. While he has three damaging abilities, and his auto passive is a pretty powerful harass tool, his beauty is in the straight up utility he provides to his team through hook/lantern/flay/box.

VenowolfApr 25, 20153 votes

Sona and Braum have a passive that empowered the damages that they do.

Zilean with only a damage skill, but with a passive that empowered his damage can be better, because he can W+Q to make another bomb, if Zilean have a passive that help him to amp his damage.

For example if Zilean can got a Q W Q and proc the stun, then he don`t have any source damage than his auto attacks, so in this exaple, if he have a passive that amp the damage if the enemy are cc or something like that, his damage can be more revelant IMO.

HellioningApr 26, 20155 votes

Zilean has three spells, essentially, including his ult. As such, having only one spell that deals damage hurts him far more than Braum and Sona; sure, they basically only get damage from one spell, but they have two other spells and an ultimate that lets them do cool things while that damage spell is on cooldown.

Zilean gets a low powered E (if he's maxing Q for damage) and an ult. Since if you want Q to do anything useful you have to double bomb using it, W is on cooldown. So now he just...wanders around in a teamfight autoing. And it's not like Sona autos, which can proc special effects, or Braum autos, which can stun. He just throws tiny clocks at people ineffectually.

narkApr 25, 20158 votes

Also, fun fact. I just looked through all the champions, and I only saw two champions that have only one direct damage spell: Zilean and Shen

Did I miss one? It's an interesting observation I haven't thought about.

Phoenix Kotori Apr 25, 201528 votes

{quoted}

Also, fun fact. I just looked through all the champions, and I only saw two champions that have only one direct damage spell: and

Did I miss one? It's an interesting observation I haven't thought about.

MasterYi Surprisingly

EvilMerodachApr 25, 201512 votes

{quoted}

Also, fun fact. I just looked through all the champions, and I only saw two champions that have only one direct damage spell: and

Did I miss one? It's an interesting observation I haven't thought about.

*coughbardcough

narkApr 25, 201513 votes

Nice catch! Bard too!

ZetaApr 26, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Nice catch! Bard too!

For me, I don't care about his power or that he only has one nuke.

I care that he's SUPPOSED to be a time mage.

But actually, he's bomb mage.

Which is supposed to be Zigg's identity.

So Zilean has no place at all in League of Legends.

Affinity2Apr 25, 201511 votes

{quoted}

Also, fun fact. I just looked through all the champions, and I only saw two champions that have only one direct damage spell: and

Did I miss one? It's an interesting observation I haven't thought about.

dude u want to talk about failed reworks? how about olaf? He still has 0 playpattern counterplay and is picked up only for that reason. the way you beat olaf is out powerspike him by trashing on his terrible teamfighting after his basevalues fall off and having his low mobility be a liability in terms of positioning

Hes less fun to play as post rework

hes as unfun to play against post rework

and everytime i bring up the topic i get shutdown or shutup about it.

If you want ill start a different thread for the topic if you reply to it for visibility but i have my doubts

narkApr 26, 20157 votes

No he's always a valid champion to discuss when reworks are mentioned. And even though this discussion isn't necessarily about all failed Rito reworks, Olaf is always worth a mention.

A5W9VPIhgQApr 27, 20154 votes

maybe giving zilean an ability to reverse damage taken in a time frame would increase his identity, he dosnt really have a good one right now I believe.

ex.) assassin damages adc, zilean uses ability, all damage within lets say maybe 0.5 or maybe even 1 second is given back to the adc as health with a 50 or what ever % decrease as health... if i worded that right?

his identity now is throwing bombs and reviving, ziggs, ga...

this is more pushing to support zilean though, even though it would be great agaist mid burst assassin and would suffer from sustained assassins

CuixApr 28, 20152 votes

Yeah, talking about all failed reworks would mean actually thinking about Cassiopeia again

the blue moongodApr 25, 201519 votes

Not to rain on your parade, but shadow dash deals damage too

Crystal CastlesApr 26, 20154 votes

As everyone else said, Shen's dash does damage, and Bard should be included as well.

Also, you missed a couple: MasterYi : The only direct damage skill is Q. W is a heal, E is an auto attack modifier to true damage, and R is a speed and attack speed boost with slow immunity. (Of course E and R have passives, but again that's not direct damage)

Udyr : The only direct damage skill is R on activation. Everything else (including R) has a persistent effect based on auto attacking, but again I would consider these auto attack modifiers and not direct damage, per say.

These two champions are interesting because although they technically have 1 direct damage spell, they have identities of auto-attackers. However, they have two completely different identities. Master Yi wants to quickly burst down your carries and then finish off anyone else. Udyr has more options, but he's seen nowadays as a tankier champion, focusing on early game ganks and objective control to close out a game quickly.

As you can tell, Zilean does not even fit this profile, but falls in the same category as Bard. These two champions are very hard to play well without some form of communication in the support role because they are so utility based.

While play Zilean, there have been countless amount of times where my ADC could easily kill the retreating enemy, so I speed them up. Their reaction? Walk around in circles. While playing Bard, I can ping as much as I want to dive the low health enemy team by using my ult to disable the turret; usually there's no follow up. It just feels so dissatisfying to play these champions solo because there is so much play potential. However, when you do have a team that listens, it is a glorious feeling.

narkApr 26, 20153 votes

Yeah I wasn't sure if I was to include auto-attack modifiers or not, as that may have opened the door for a few more.

I didn't see Bard on my list so I missed him :(

Nice catch with Shen... Wow.

Anyways, What do you think about the effect that champions have on the game when they don't provide direct damage? I personally think it's cool that there are some champions that can be such a terror with only one direct damage ability.

ZarxisApr 26, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Yeah I wasn't sure if I was to include auto-attack modifiers or not, as that may have opened the door for a few more.

I didn't see Bard on my list so I missed him :(

Nice catch with Shen... Wow.

Anyways, What do you think about the effect that champions have on the game when they don't provide direct damage? I personally think it's cool that there are some champions that can be such a terror with only one direct damage ability.

It's definitely possible for a champion to feel impactful without having a lot of direct damage abilities (a well-guarded ADC can get by with nothing but autoattacks, for example), but Zilean has the added disadvantage of effectively not having anything in his W slot (plus his autoattacks are like tiny, ticking backrubs). I think the closest comparison to his W is Zyra's W, but she gets free wards from her seeds (and "spotting," if the seed is stepped on) and free CDR. Zilean just gets a simple handicap mechanism for his double Q combo. It's not something than anyone else can see; with a ton of CDR, it's very hard for enemies to really keep track of when he can or can't double-Q because there's almost always a time bomb on the field. Sure, the pseudo-presence of his W allows him to make his Q and E more impactful, but that's not adding another way for Zilean to interact and be interacted with. It is, again, just an invisible handicap and waste of potential.

I really don't want free CDR strapped to Zilean's W, though; that puts restrictions on his builds and adds "boring" power. At the very least, it could be changed to do something more dynamic to his Q and E. QWQ is often simply referred to as "Q stun" or "double Q" because Zilean's W is so... Dull, unnoticeable, etc. It's just not an ability, and it's obviously not a passive. It doesn't do Zilean justice to have nothing in that slot. I feel that he could afford to have another ability without removing his double-Q stun. Flat number buffs will make for a viable but boring Zilean; a new ability could revitalize him as a character, as a motif/archetype (time mage), and as an in-game champion.

VenowolfApr 26, 20154 votes

Yeah I completly agree, his W can have a better skill, some skill more interactive, without taking off the chance if double bomb, maybe add some kind of recharge mechanic like Teemo R and Corki R, with a max of 3 bombs on stock. Move some kind of his actual W to his passive to make feel like the same.

Passive:

When Zilean uses an ability, all of his other abilities have their cooldown reduced by 1 second.

Q: Time Bomb

RANGE: 1000 COST: 70 MANA STATIC COOLDOWN: 1.5 RECHARGE TIME 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8

PASSIVE: Zilean reloads a bomb every few seconds, up to a maximum of 3 stored at once.

ACTIVE: Zilean throws a ticking time bomb to a target location that detonates after 3 seconds, dealing magic damage in a 330-radius area. If the bomb lands within 100-units of a unit or a unit moves within range while the bomb is on the ground, it will attach to them and will detonate from their current position at the end of its lifetime.

MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 300 (+ 90% AP) If a bomb is placed on a unit already holding a bomb, the first will detonate immediately, also stunning all enemies in range for a brief duration. STUN DURATION: 1.1 / 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 / 1.5

W: New Ability Temporal Fold

RANGE: 700 COST: 80 / 85 / 90 / 95 / 100 MANA COOLDOWN: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10

FIRST CAST: Zilean charges for up to 2 seconds, marking an area to disrupt time. While charging, Zilean is immobile, and cannot attack or use his other abilities. After charging for 4 seconds, Temporal Fold goes on full cooldown and has half its mana cost refunded.

SECOND CAST: Zilean releases a bubble of frozen time at the target location that rapidly expands to between 200 and 400 units in radius, depending on how long the ability was charged. All affected enemies take magic damage and are frozen in time, becoming stunned for a duration based on how long Temporal Fold was charged and remaining suspended mid-action, resuming at the end of the stun. Projectiles are also suspended in mid-air for the same duration before resuming their course.

MAGIC DAMAGE: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 60% AP) MINIMUM STUN DURATION: 0.6 / 0.7 / 0.8 / 0.9 / 1 MAXIMUM STUN DURATION: 1.2 / 1.4 / 1.6 / 1.8 / 2

Enemies frozen in time cannot be affected by Temporal Fold for the next 4 seconds after the effects end.

A barely idea like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQAdbiPy50U

E and R can work like the actuals.

In Time Warp a slighty change like this: the amount for 2.5 seconds can be increased in +1s by every 100AP; can make the skill more revelant.

ZarxisApr 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yeah I completly agree, his W can have a better skill, some skill more interactive, without taking off the chance if double bomb, maybe add some kind of recharge mechanic like Teemo R and Corki R, with a max of 3 bombs on stock. Move some kind of his actual W to his passive to make feel like the same.

That passive would require a rebalancing of all of Zilean's cooldowns in order to be balanced, and it would be a carbon-copy of Ryze's current passive. I'm not a fan of that proposal.

While I do support the possibility of giving Zilean's Q a charge system, I can't say that giving him a maximum storage of three bombs is a good idea without other significant changes. With three bombs, Zilean could stun an entire enemy team twice (approximately 3 seconds total, without adding your proposed W). Even if Zilean was given a sort of stun marking system (think Udyr's Bear Stance or Skarner's Crystal Poison), he'd be getting off a massive amount of AOE damage because his third bomb could not miss (his targets would already be stunned from the second bomb).

Your concept of a "time bubble" for a new W is a good possible direction for Riot to follow in making a new W for Zilean, but I don't think Zilean can afford to have any more stuns in his kit. Even if he was given a Q stun marking system like I mentioned earlier (to reiterate: Zilean would be unable to Q stun enemies that have already been Q stunned within X seconds), he would be able to get off a guaranteed second stun with his W because he could charge it during his original Q stun's time. If Riot really doesn't want to give Zilean another damaging ability (if so, I truly hope they reconsider, given that Zilean's only damaging ability is extremely unreliable— it seems that the other 1-damaging-ability champions have much more reliable methods), giving him an AOE of projectile-pausing (not projectile-deleting, like Braum's E and Yasuo's Wind Wall) would be thematically fitting and probably not overly-powerful in terms of gameplay (the projectile-pause would probably need to be shorter than 2 seconds, even if Zilean has to channel it). Perhaps it could support that small burst of AOE damage that you mentioned without being overpowered when combined with Zilean's Q stun; I don't know. Another way to tweak the projectile-pause AOE would be making it persistent (pausing new projectiles as they enter the already-paused AOE) or not (allowing them to pass through, with the paused projectiles remaining so until the end of of the pause duration).

magic poleApr 26, 20152 votes

LETS NOT GET OFF TOPIC.

YOU BEEN WARNEDApr 26, 20157 votes

About the combo skillshot stuns;

There is but his spells have gigantic hitboxes unlike Zilean 's impossible to land stuns. This is all because of the "time" when the Zilean rework happened.

Look at the delay on Veigar E; it was buffed because of the community backlash but it was horrifyingly bad.

Soraka is supposed to have an aggressive all-in combo with sweet spot Q into E. I think you know that combo is nearly impossible because reworks done in this "time frame" have an overload of ridiculous delays and skillshots for the so called counterplay.

YOU BEEN WARNEDApr 26, 20156 votes

I disagree, when old Zilean was losing, he had a ton of utility in form of super slows and a revive. So long you have 1 important person on your team [ be it Jax Darius Draven Fiddlesticks whatever person that can dish out good damage ] and the situation wasn't completely hopeless ( that no other champion can get out of except for Blitzcrank because ) you will still be relevant.

Now you don't have that anymore, none of it. The slow is bad, the Q zoning only works when you have AP to make it threatening. The double bomb will only work if an enemy is CC'd, your ult lasts for a very short time and it's CD isn't nearly as short.

Right now, both winning and losing as Zilean feels bad. Why would I even pick Zilean ? Might as well pick Lulu or Kayle whose kit stays relevant while having better early game presence.

VenowolfApr 26, 20152 votes

Yeah I completly agree, his W can have a better skill, some skill more interactive, without taking off the chance of cast the double bomb, maybe add some kind of recharge mechanic like Teemo R and Corki R, with a max of 3 bombs on stock. Move some kind of his actual W to his passive to make feel like the same and open a free slot to the new skill. Changes like this:

Passive:

When Zilean uses an ability, all of his other abilities have their cooldown reduced by 1 second.

Q: Time Bomb

RANGE: 1000 COST: 70 MANA STATIC COOLDOWN: 1.5 RECHARGE TIME 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8

PASSIVE: Zilean reloads a bomb every few seconds, up to a maximum of 3 stored at once.

ACTIVE: Zilean throws a ticking time bomb to a target location that detonates after 3 seconds, dealing magic damage in a 330-radius area. If the bomb lands within 100-units of a unit or a unit moves within range while the bomb is on the ground, it will attach to them and will detonate from their current position at the end of its lifetime.

MAGIC DAMAGE: 80 / 135 / 190 / 245 / 300 (+ 90% AP) If a bomb is placed on a unit already holding a bomb, the first will detonate immediately, also stunning all enemies in range for a brief duration. STUN DURATION: 1.1 / 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 / 1.5

W: New Ability Temporal Fold

RANGE: 700 COST: 80 / 85 / 90 / 95 / 100 MANA COOLDOWN: 14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10

FIRST CAST: Zilean charges for up to 2 seconds, marking an area to disrupt time. While charging, Zilean is immobile, and cannot attack or use his other abilities. After charging for 4 seconds, Temporal Fold goes on full cooldown and has half its mana cost refunded.

SECOND CAST: Zilean releases a bubble of frozen time at the target location that rapidly expands to between 200 and 400 units in radius, depending on how long the ability was charged. All affected enemies take magic damage and are frozen in time, becoming stunned for a duration based on how long Temporal Fold was charged and remaining suspended mid-action, resuming at the end of the stun. Projectiles are also suspended in mid-air for the same duration before resuming their course.

MAGIC DAMAGE: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 60% AP) MINIMUM STUN DURATION: 0.6 / 0.7 / 0.8 / 0.9 / 1 MAXIMUM STUN DURATION: 1.2 / 1.4 / 1.6 / 1.8 / 2

Enemies frozen in time cannot be affected by Temporal Fold for the next 4 seconds after the effects end.

A barely idea like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQAdbiPy50U

E and R can work like the actuals.

In Time Warp a slighty change like this: the amount for 2.5 seconds can be increased in +1s by every 100AP; can make the skill more revelant.

MrSlowDieApr 25, 20154 votes

is there any plan to make zil's ult more a "time-magic" instead of "revive-with-lots-of-hp-magic" ??

Earl EulrichApr 25, 20153 votes

I think most players would actually agree that a rework had been needed...but the way it went down just had been outright wrong. He had no dmg later on in the game anyway, and now that the little dmg he offers is also unreliable and his support doesnßt really scale that well through the game and with ap - well, midlane Zilean is just pretty dead. His only real strength had been countering squishy, high-mobile mages like Ahri pretty darn hard.

And for a support there are just so many that do almost anything better than he does...e.g. Lulu just has way more dmg, a shield, a similar speed-buff (but stronger scaling) and an ultimate that works out pretty similar (you get a certain amount of bonus-life). So as a support Zilean just gets outclassed. I think he would deserve a rework on the Sion-level, as his current kit just doesnßt accomplish anything, and the bombs aren´t even that tight thematically (and the passive is just horrible, too much hidden power and takes too much of his budget).

Final Raid BossApr 26, 20153 votes

Using your comparison, to me it seems like things are reversed now after his rework, he's somewhat frustrating and not as fun to play, i'd say he doesn't feel rewarding either but if you land the skillshot i suppose it is, although i don't feel him to be anymore rewarding than the pre-rework zil, and for the enemy team he's easy to play around and isn't much of a threat outside of his revive (if the player can use it properly).

Speaking from my own experience, landing one bomb on an enemy champ is more difficult than it should be and getting two in that short time frame rarely happens. I've probably played a dozen or so games with him since the rework and honestly have gotten off only a handful of his double bomb stuns on enemy champs. For being one of his main spells (and his only damaging one) it's way too unreliable, I wouldn't even consider picking him because of that alone.

The old Zil was bordering on toxic, but it's not like he was a meta/pick or ban champ, seems like he's never been extremely popular, and because of that I think he should've just been left alone until a later time, like Mordekaiser was several weeks ago. The rework solved the issue of his q having no real counterplay, and made it healthier for the game, but it didn't really make Zilean himself any better than he already was pre-rework. It was more so just for the games sake than it was for the champions sake. And honestly you could apply the argument of point and click abilities having no counterplay to any champ, Annie's q for example.

In my eyes he wasn't some ridiculously toxic champion that needed a rework ASAP. He had to get in a fairly close range to drop his bombs on someone, and when you factor in his insane squishiness, it somewhat balanced it out, you were putting yourself at risk to get off a double bomb, and i think most people would know not to get too close or suffer the consequence. Now you have to not only put yourself in danger, you have to land a fairly difficult skillshot twice, not having that reliability totally killed off mid Zilean, you'd be a huge detriment to your team by picking him now to be an adequate APC. His mana costs were also keeping him in check, it's not like you could infinitely spam abilities (bombs), he goes oom very easily early on in the games, has a strong mid game where you can really shine and late game he kinda falls off in terms of damage, but makes up for it with his utility. The old Q was 130 mana I think, and considering how much you'd spam it I think that was pretty fair.

I don't know where the idea for the stun came from but I always thought he had enough utility with his time warp (e) and revive, instead of a stun i'd rather just be rewarded for landing the bombs with more damage, like if you land one and land another before it pops then you get a 20% damage increase, something like that. Or another idea: if your target is slowed by your E you can instantly cast a bomb on them or have some kind of lock on that makes it much easier to land one.

And separately from his Q, I really don't like his passive, it just doesn't seem useful at all, 8% is not significant, even it's for you and another nearby ally. If It was so that you ended up being several levels above everyone else then it'd be insanely broken, and it would never be like that, and what we have is just a barely noticeable effect that ultimately has no major outcome on the game, even when it was global I didn't care for it. And not to mention now it's strictly only useful when your playing support, because that's the main point in the game where you're going to be near another ally, and then the rest of the game it's just like this on and off aura that again ultimately has very little impact. What good is it mid (not that zil mid is a thing anymore) where you're already going to most likely be the highest level because it's a solo lane? I'd just like to have a passive that adds some depth to his kit, something you can actually utilize right there in the moment.

All in all the rework should've been shelved until a later date where more resources could be devoted to reworking him, mainly his passive and Q, at least in my opinion. The Q change may have seemed good in theory and did make it healthier for the game, but didn't seem like it was thoroughly thought out nor did it seem like other ideas were considered. And I say healthier in the sense that there's now counterplay to his Q (and some other changes ofc), but that doesn't mean Zilean is anymore optimal/viable than he was, the game is mainly who benefited but not Zilean lol.

YOU BEEN WARNEDApr 26, 20154 votes

The state of "health" Zilean was in previously wasn't the best, however it didn't feel like crap to play as. How do you justify nerfing every single spell Zilean had when he constantly had a sub 50% winrate and a low pick rate?!

Old Man TeetoApr 26, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Interestingly enough, one of 's biggest problems (at least for me) is that old Zil was super fun to play, but horrendously annoying to play against.

Akali Cassiopeia Fizz Teemo Yorick Nidalee Darius Leblanc Kassadin Corki Jayce Evelynn Singed Hecarim Zed

RebonackApr 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Interestingly enough, one of 's biggest problems (at least for me) is that old Zil was super fun to play, but horrendously annoying to play against.

I don't know if this is just me, but I honestly feel as though this is my biggest gripe with Riot's design choices of late. I feel as though some of you guys have been focusing on making champions fun to play against before making them fun to play as.

Let me draw an example from my time playing Dominion.

AP Shaco can be a TON of fun to play as. You get this rush of feeling as though you're out-smarting your opponents as you weasel your way around the map taking targets of opportunity and POOF!ing away at the last moment to avoid retaliation.

AP Shaco is complete HELL to play again. Some champions just plain can't deal with him and spotting Shaco back-capping one of your points after winning a skirmish elsewhere on the map by the skin of your teeth is terrible. But despite this, I would hate to see him gone. He's interesting and unique and brings something to the game that no one else does.

This really isn't a unique thing. AP Yi was a ton of fun to play as. AP Trist was a ton of fun to play as. Old AP Try was a ton of fun to play as. AP and AD Sion were both a ton of fun to play as. Old Eve was a ton of fun to play as. Deny-Plank support was a ton of fun to play as. Mage Janna and Mage Lulu were a ton of fun to play as. Battle Soraka was a ton of fun to play as. Bruiser Taric was a ton of fun to play as. And on and on and on. What did all these champions have in common? If they were strong, they were all a nightmare to play again.

I think it would serve Riot well if 'fun to play against' and 'muhcounterplay' were much lower on the priority list and making a champion fun to play as became the most important factor again. Because that's why people pick the champions they pick, right? Because they think they're fun?