I Understand That People QQ About Vayne A LOT....

ThunderSqueak··39 votes·3,467 views

...but Riot, you just nerfed armor on the PBE and it is now impossible to play. Every single game I have played on the PBE has been decided by whoever had a Vayne or who's Vayne was more fed. It's insane that with 170 armor and 3500 health as Braum that a Vayne can dispose of me as if I was the squishiest mid lanner in the world. I love the PBE (mainly because dev Vi with Titanic Hydra is life) but it is now impossible to play anymore. I understand that it's a bronze-noob thing to QQ over Vayne, but I think it is actually a problem now. I'm ready for the downvotes because I complained about Vayne, but her kit is not as hard as every makes it out as. The ADC role is beginning to look like Super Smash Brothers Melee. Fox only. Vayne only. For some people there may be a counter and there may be a very good way to deal with Vayne, but I want to be able to play the 100+ champions that you have put into the game, Riot. Even without Vayne's strength it brings up another topic about how there are 100+ champions, but only like 20 of them can be used competitively. It makes me mad. Wait.... this is an article about Vayne. Even the smallest of nerfs on her health% damage and true damage would make this little league player feel happy. And if you don't feel this way about it, Riot. You. Me. Final Destination. No Items. Fox only.

As always Thank You Riot, for making this wonderful game. Everything has it's small problems, but we must work together to find solutions. DFTBA

71 Comments

Poop Jelly14 votes

Vayne has never been and will probably never reach to the OP level.

She actually depends a lot on her support for a safe laning phase and teammates for safe teamfight. It's true her damage output is probably better than most ADCs, but make no mistakes, she's a squishy ADC.

She takes a lot more risks than most ADCs and if YOU are melees, especially tanks, vayne is there to counter you. Vayne's counter would be someone who can burst her down or poke comp that can disengage as she or her team go in.

By your logic, if whoever tanks got to 200+ armor/MR and 3000+ health automatically win game or teamfight, then that doesn't sound fair to the rest of other roles like adcs or mages. I'm not saying tanks are just helpless against vayne, but you can't just assume that your playstyle works for X ADC will also work for Y ADC.

hashinshin5 votes

Vayne has literally been OP every season.

Where are you getting your information? Candy Kane mountain, over by the imaginary gumdrop people?

TheXtractor3 votes

Only release vayne was OP.

Hawkefire5 votes

Here is basically my one and only problem with Vayne.

To counter any ADC in the game, you need to either:

A) Burst them down before they can do the same to you B) Itemize defenses so you can survive their damage long enough for you to lock them down so someone else can do it for you.

Unfortunately, the only real option versus Vayne is option A. However Vayne is also a direct counter to a pretty significant number of Assassins with her own self peel. Added to that fact, you also cannot itemize against her damage because a pretty significant source of it is true damage, yes you can lessen it to a degree, but frankly that isn't enough to get the job done against her.

The only ADC that is similar to this is Kog'Maw. However he does not directly counter most assassins and requires significantly more aid from his team than Vayne does to ensure that targets don't get to him and subsequently destroy him.

VDc0zCqe0w5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Poop Jelly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O9TNFUvg,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-08-18T22:49:10.896+0000)

Vayne has never been and will probably never reach to the OP level.

She's actually reached that right now, and nerfs are needed ASAP

[{quoted}](name=Poop Jelly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O9TNFUvg,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-08-18T22:49:10.896+0000)

She actually depends a lot on her support for a safe laning phase and teammates for safe teamfight. It's true her damage output is probably better than most ADCs, but make no mistakes, she's a squishy ADC.

squishy adc? you mean like every single one after 20 minutes? or are you really gonna call MF "tanky" and Vayne "squishy" just for a 150 HP difference when midlaners can shit out 2K damage at that point? And no, QSS = safe teamfight, that's the only thing you need to faceroll any kind of game as a Vayne: a simple QSS

[{quoted}](name=Poop Jelly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O9TNFUvg,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-08-18T22:49:10.896+0000)

By your logic, if whoever tanks got to 200+ armor/MR and 3000+ health automatically win game or teamfight, then that doesn't sound fair to the rest of other roles like adcs or mages. I'm not saying tanks are just helpless against vayne, but you can't just assume that your playstyle works for X ADC will also work for Y ADC.

no playstyle works vs a Vayne

"Just CC her"? QSS, ult, flash+condemn+tumble away, proceed to faceroll the terribly out-of-position engager

Thornmail? Cute, she's got a fuckton of lifesteal and QSS got alot of magic resistance

FH and Randuins? Those items counter any kind of ADC except Ezreal and Urgot

Outdamage her? WHO is gonna outdamage her? the only guy who does that is Kog, and he needs a whole team to protect him while Vayne can do WTF she wants given the huge amount of self-peel she has

The only kind of counterplay Vayne has at the moment is to instalock Viktor or Annie (mid) and faceroll her face with 2K of point-and-click burst

UltraSceptile10 votes

QQing about vayne is not a bronze thing. She has massive pickrate and winrate up to diamond. And she's starting to get banned a LOT now even in higher elo. SHe's broken as fuck.

Onegarion6 votes

she isn't broken at all. She is very strong against champions who stack health and guess what we have right now? A meta where stacking health is done. This plays very strongly to her strengths and makes her a high priority champ. The problem also lies in that Riot has nerfed a strong number of adcs that put vayne higher than she use to be. Vayne use to be the Ezreal of ADCs where you dreaded seeing her on your team and loved playing against her, but that was in the assassin meta where she was deleted too fast because she had to play closer than most other adcs. Its not the champ thats broken its the meta that plays to her favor.

Trídent2 votes

A meta where stacking health is done.

wat

Onegarion3 votes

Its still the tank meta. Many champions are still giant tanks that build lots of items that have health. How hard is that to understand?

Psi211 votes

{quoted}

Its still the tank meta. Many champions are still giant tanks that build lots of items that have health. How hard is that to understand?

You couldn't be more correct.

This tank meta is bring out the tank busters like Kog and Vayne.

If we didn't have tanks so big on the scene right now we wouldn't be hearing about Vayne.

Onegarion2 votes

I know, but people would rather scream about things being broken with no basis or actually evidence other than high pick rates and win rates, both of which correlate with champions that have their strengths being good against the strongest champs. Each champion that is used in the ADC role has a reason.

Vayne is picked because what I've said. She destroys champions that build a lot of health and we still have champions building things like Spirit Visage, Randuins which have a lot of health added in. Also the fact that they buffed Bork a long while ago and even then Vayne saw a strong resurgence, but the meta wasn't right for her so she was strong, but not the strongest.

KogMaw is super late game all the way and has really easy harass in both mid and adc. He is picked for the same reason Vayne is except for when Sivir was the go too because she could close the gap that gave Kog his advantage and lock him down. This is why you see him against other adcs who aren't sivir more now.

Kalista got hit with the nerf bat a bit hard and a lot of people backed off, but she was huge when objectives like dragon and baron were the thing to take. She provided so much control on them. Now many teams have gotten better at dealing with her drafting champs like maokai and even gnar to an extent (more learning on how to play gnar against her since he has been picked for a while). Also teams have gotten better control on those same objectives so kalistas big benefit isn't as prized now.

Sivir has been picked a lot because of her wave clear and her ult. That ult helps any bruisers you have on your team to engage and lock down the priority targets while she still deals a good amount of damage on top of it. She is by no means a weak adc. Many disengage champions have been coming out now when sivir is early picked and she has toned down on when she is picked, but she is still very strong.

No one looks at reasons for trends like this, but instead just spout complaints and think they are right. Its rather sad that its as acceptable as that.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Vayne's picked because every other Adc that used to bully the shit out of her in lane got nerfed.

Mongoose7 votes

thornmail

pink ward

cc

lmao typical pbe'r

HaIlMonitor4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pk gts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O9TNFUvg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-18T21:21:26.217+0000)

thornmail

pink ward

cc

lmao typical pbe'r

seeing as she is already the strongest adc pick and there is a point that she doesn't care about thorn mail and to a point pink wards. She will get to that even faster. Then the real problems will come.

Radio Renegade6 votes

cause of tank meta, dont think she was used prior

HaIlMonitor6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radio Renegade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O9TNFUvg,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-18T21:57:54.755+0000)

cause of tank meta, dont think she was used prior

The tank meta has nothing to do with it. She is a strong pick because they nerfed all of the other adc's so her laning is much simpler and she still out scales them all.

TheXtractor6 votes

Yah im sure that the thing vayne is super good against is suddenly a lot more popular because cinderhulk HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT LEL...

How can you be so stupid, If this was assassin/burst meta vayne would be a lot less popular because she would get insta killed every teamfight.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

{quoted}

Yah im sure that the thing vayne is super good against is suddenly a lot more popular because cinderhulk HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT LEL...

How can you be so stupid, If this was assassin/burst meta vayne would be a lot less popular because she would get insta killed every teamfight.

I am so glad you called me stupid LOLOL. She actually survives vs assassins better then some of the other adc's because her e can knock them back and she can go invis with her ult + q. Also tanks have been out of "meta" in solo que for the last two patches at least. Fighters have taken over in almost all of the lanes.

TheXtractor1 votes

Just because she has 1 knockback and something that can be countered easily with just a simple pink ward or trinket doesn't mean she will easily rape any assassin.

1v1 versus a vayne is always a bad idea in general, but a tank 1v1 against vayne will probably not even dent her HP, while 1v1 with an assassin will require precise skill to land your E properly to not instant die to their abilities.

Also tanks have been out of "meta" in solo que for the last two patches at least. Fighters have taken over in almost all of the lanes.

Oh yes 'Fighters' you mean those champs that build maybe 1 damage item and then go full tank lel.

Psi211 votes

{quoted}

The tank meta has nothing to do with it. She is a strong pick because they nerfed all of the other adc's so her laning is much simpler and she still out scales them all.

History doesn't lie

Kog in 2010 and later Vayne in 2011 was used in against Tankie DPS.

https://youtu.be/isAh6hreZoI?t=29

This is very much a stupid tank meta and you have this meta to blame for the appearance of tank busters once again.

Players that feel the tank meta is fine are the same players complaining about Vayne. Get some skill already.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

thornmail heavily nerfed on PBE

cc counters ADCs in general (and it's not like there are 4 other Champs on her team to help peel)

The only valid argument is Pink Ward

Which people probably do anyway


Like I don't even find Vayne to be such a big problem, but I do understand why people don't like playing against her. The upcoming iteration of the PBE is just icing on the cake for Vayne.

TheJinxedOne1 votes

they are soon to be changing ad items too tho.. so maybe that will balance it out a lot better..

Finn Teh Human5 votes

I main Vayne and SHE IS NO OP. Everyone thinks her W is op but AGAIN YOU ARE NOT CONSIDERING HER WHOLE KIT. This is what Vayne does. She did not become popular til the tank meta. Vayne doesn't have any ranged abilities, any aoe abilities, any atttack speed steroids. That being said you can see her kit centers around dueling. People don't abuse Vayne's weakness AT ALL. Not many people abuse her range, not many people abuse when she can't E you away, no one abuses after she uses tumble (which is a 6 second CD at first rank but you can still abuse a CD). And no one abuses the fact that if you just CC her (like Ahri's charm) she's dead. Vayne has to be close to a fight in order to use her W and other abilities. I'd understand if she had 650 range but she doesn't. I have no problem dealing with Vayne's because I know her weaknesses clearly and I know how to abuse them, especially as a Vayne main.

AtheosisX6 votes

Every ADC is dead if you CC them. That particular part of your post is worse than meaningless.

Finn Teh Human2 votes

Holy crap use your brain dude. She has 550 range, which means she's gonna be CLOSER TO THE FIGHT THAN THE AVERAGE ADC LIKE JINX FOR EXAMPLE. Now go back and reread that. In other words, it's easier to cc her so it's easier to kill her. Normally it's Vayne's ult that keeps her alive in teamfights, so why doesn't anyone get a pink ward?

ima firin3 votes

550 is AVERAGE adc range, not low

Sniper 02 votes

[{quoted}](name=ima firin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O9TNFUvg,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-18T22:34:46.799+0000)

550 is AVERAGE adc range, not low

It's higher than poor Lucians... :C 500 range, I qq every time.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Urgot

Finn Teh Human1 votes

Cept Lucian has ranged spells. Vayne don't.

Finn Teh Human1 votes

But she has no ranged spells above her AA.

The Fast3 votes

Jinx also doesnt have a targeted "no u" and low cooldown mobility spell.

Also 550 range is STANDARD. Jinx is actually a low range ADC outside of cannon mode. Pretty weird that the Vayne/Jinx main didn't know/acknowledge that.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

To be fair only a few ADCs actually outrange Vayne with just auto attacks.

Caitlyn Jinx Twitch Tristana KogMaw

But the thing is Vayne's passive and Tumble lets her close distances easily so not really any ADC can kite her. It only gets worse with her ultimate giving her significantly more movement speed out of her passive and since Phantom Dancer is pretty common on her It's not like she's THAT easy to kite when she's running at you with 500 movement speed and a few tumbles.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Any carry is dead if you CC them pretty much though? I hate how people say "This champion is weak because you can CC them". WELL NO DUH IF I CC THE 20-0 AHRI SHE'LL DIE DID YOU THINK I WAS GONNA HEAL HER INSTEAD

Psi211 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O9TNFUvg,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2015-08-19T03:52:04.864+0000)

Any carry is dead if you CC them pretty much though? I hate how people say "This champion is weak because you can CC them". WELL NO DUH IF I CC THE 20-0 AHRI SHE'LL DIE DID YOU THINK I WAS GONNA HEAL HER INSTEAD

Your team wouldn't have gotten wiped if you CC Kat or Yi.

Yeah you do hear it alot....

Oh wait, we defend Kat and Yi as balanced because a champ should be able to wipe another team in a team fight. So re-tarded

JedenVojak1 votes

{quoted}

Every ADC is dead if you CC them. That particular part of your post is worse than meaningless.

Urgot would like a word with you.

AtheosisX1 votes

Urgot is not an ADC.

HaIlMonitor9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Finn Teh Human,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O9TNFUvg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-18T21:39:03.989+0000)

I main Vayne and SHE IS NO OP. Everyone thinks her W is op but AGAIN YOU ARE NOT CONSIDERING HER WHOLE KIT. This is what Vayne does. She did not become popular til the tank meta. Vayne doesn't have any ranged abilities, any aoe abilities, any atttack speed steroids. That being said you can see her kit centers around dueling. People don't abuse Vayne's weakness AT ALL. Not many people abuse her range, not many people abuse when she can't E you away, no one abuses after she uses tumble (which is a 6 second CD at first rank but you can still abuse a CD). And no one abuses the fact that if you just CC her (like Ahri's charm) she's dead. Vayne has to be close to a fight in order to use her W and other abilities. I'd understand if she had 650 range but she doesn't. I have no problem dealing with Vayne's because I know her weaknesses clearly and I know how to abuse them, especially as a Vayne main.

For knowing her weaknesses you sure lose a lot to vaynes in ranked as jinx who looks to be your second main. Seems as if your full of crap.

Finn Teh Human4 votes

It's a duo lane, I can't help if my support or the enemy is an actualy duo or if I'm in another lane and bot feeds. I'm not botlane all the time...

Keitron1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Finn Teh Human,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O9TNFUvg,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-18T21:39:03.989+0000)

I main Vayne and SHE IS NO OP. Everyone thinks her W is op but AGAIN YOU ARE NOT CONSIDERING HER WHOLE KIT. This is what Vayne does. She did not become popular til the tank meta. Vayne doesn't have any ranged abilities, any aoe abilities, any atttack speed steroids. That being said you can see her kit centers around dueling. People don't abuse Vayne's weakness AT ALL. Not many people abuse her range, not many people abuse when she can't E you away, no one abuses after she uses tumble (which is a 6 second CD at first rank but you can still abuse a CD). And no one abuses the fact that if you just CC her (like Ahri's charm) she's dead. Vayne has to be close to a fight in order to use her W and other abilities. I'd understand if she had 650 range but she doesn't. I have no problem dealing with Vayne's because I know her weaknesses clearly and I know how to abuse them, especially as a Vayne main.

coming from a bronzie

Finn Teh Human1 votes

Gold, not Bronze.

disregardable4 votes

but I want to be able to play the 100+ champions that you have put into the game, Riot

See, people always say this when referring to ADCs Vayne Kalista, but they never accept it as an argument on the following end. Why is it okay for ADCs to have no counterplay against Riven XinZhao Vi? They get more damage than you, more mobility than you, and more tank than you.

ADCs get to have a strength. It is kiting.

ThunderSqueak1 votes

I'm not saying that It's not ok for ADC's to have to counter play, I just believe that Vayne just has alittle too much. But that is my opinion. I may just be a Silver noob that can't handle it, I'll admit, but I'm just posting my two sense.

Radio Renegade1 votes

some people say kalista dont have counter play

SoMNia4 votes

You must have missed the part where armor got nerfed across the board, which means every ADC who's NOT designed specifically as a tank shredder just got stronger relative to Vayne, and fighters who are not the tankiest of tanks became more viable.

And by the way, Vayne's % health true damage (I've been saying this a lot, because nobody's figured it out yet) is only about 10% of her total damage anyway. This goes up to about 1/4 when she's against a full tank, but that still means 3/4 of her damage against tanks is coming from BoRK and crits. She's an ADC. She does monstrous amounts of physical damage. That's her job. She's not the only one who does it. In fact, if anything, it's arguably BoRK that's too strong, and not Vayne herself.

Crett3 votes

all tanks must bow before the tiny people with guns and bows

BlkGolem3 votes

Not really a noob thing to qq over vayne, as she is pretty much always relevant in a game if she knows what she is doing. She can come back a lot easier than most adcs and generally does well besides.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

{quoted}

Not really a noob thing to qq over vayne, as she is pretty much always relevant in a game if she knows what she is doing. She can come back a lot easier than most adcs and generally does well besides.

This is blatantly not true. If a short ranged mage or another strong dueling adc manages to get decently ahead against a Vayne team, that Vayne is worthless. Short range mages completely dominate Vayne because she cannot do any damage at all without walking into their typically very reliable burst range. What is Vayne supposed to do against a fed Annie exactly? Or a fed Draven?

Hi Im Baemax3 votes

I'd like to say that vayne isn't Op at the moment it's just that other ADC's are kinda Up. I mean really talking about the tank meta what the heck is Ezreal going to do when Sejuani with 4k Hp comes bum rushing him, or more recently how is Graves going to cope with Shyvana jumping at him with sated+bork. At the moment Vayne is the only adc that has a kit capable of coping with the cinderhulk and devourer champions, Not yo mention a series of nerfs to other ADC's like ashe, graves,corki,kog maw,jinx and kalista have knocked them all down below her.

in my opinion they should balance all adc's just a little bit more. Give corki and graves that little extra oomph in the laning phase and watch vayne's winrate plummet

magic pole2 votes

well said

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