A nerf to Twitch's range, from 550 to 525

Jackom1·Sep 4, 2017·14 votes·918 views

Would that tone him down without having to mess his kit, or would it just gut him?

I'm pretty sure a 25 nerf would be quite impactful, but it might also be fitting for his stealth mechanic.

22 Comments

Tribbles FoxfolkSep 4, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Would that tone him down without having to mess his kit, or would it just gut him?

I'm pretty sure a 25 nerf would be quite impactful, but it might also be fitting for his stealth mechanic.

I think if we want to talk Twitch nerfs, his range isn't really the problem. His Stealth is kind of the problem since the detection radius is very small and there's no warning he's nearby until he's filled you with more crossbow bolts than the 12th century.

My suggestion would be (and each one can be done independently if Riot wants to avoid nerfing him too badly):

Remove the reset completely. I don't think he needs to get his stealth more than once per fight. If he gets caught in a teamfight, he shouldn't be able to just get a kill and sneak off unpunished.
Make the stealth give a warning to players within a huge AoE, with the warning being far more visible the closer he gets. Also if he gets within a certain range (probably within the range that he can attack from his ult), there should be Akali-/Teemo-style smoke puffs every second that warns people where he is.
Reduce the Attack Speed steroid. If he can reset it constantly, does he really need the huge AS buff each time?

Jackom1Sep 4, 20174 votes

Actually a range nerf would help solve the problems you wrote

Lower range means that can't sneak away from a teamfight as easily as now. He'd have to get closer to the enemy to start attacking, which means that he'd have to commit more, be an easier target, and have a harder time escaping. His stealth is a camouflage, which means that as long as an enemy is inside his detection range, he can't turn invisible. And with a lower range, he'll have to be more careful about not being spotted.

Only problem would be his ult, which gives quite a lot of range. Maybe nerf that too, or make it so that he doesn't simply get 300 range, it's the projectiles that will run for 300 points in a straight line before stopping (similar to how lucian's Q hits enemies behind the main targets).

Tribbles FoxfolkSep 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Actually a range nerf would help solve the problems you wrote

Lower range means that can't sneak away from a teamfight as easily as now. He'd have to get closer to the enemy to start attacking, which means that he'd have to commit more, be an easier target, and have a harder time escaping. His stealth is a camouflage, which means that as long as an enemy is inside his detection range, he can't turn invisible. And with a lower range, he'll have to be more careful about not being spotted.

Only problem would be his ult, which gives quite a lot of range. Maybe nerf that too, or make it so that he doesn't simply get 300 range, it's the projectiles that will run for 300 points in a straight line before stopping (similar to how lucian's Q hits enemies behind the main targets).

Well, as you addressed, his ult adds so much range that he doesn't have to worry about range post-6. I think moving power off of his ult before doing anything else is the first step. He should have to commit to his target, not splat them across the multiverse from 850 range. I agree that making it run behind the target a ways to deal collateral damage would be a good power-shift.

Maybe we could make his passive a little more effective as well? I never really notice any damage from his passive until he presses E, so maybe that could be changed. (DoTs in general, actually, aren't that great right now. Only Malzahar seems to pack any effective DoT damage right now.)

DunkinNoobsSep 4, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eevee Girl Alex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O3Q4Flr4,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-09-04T16:59:30.489+0000)

I think if we want to talk Twitch nerfs, his range isn't really the problem. His Stealth is kind of the problem since the detection radius is very small and there's no warning he's nearby until he's filled you with more crossbow bolts than the 12th century.

You do remember that it had no detection radius at all before the assassin update, right? He could literally be right next to you and you'd have no idea. Now he's revealed if he's within his auto range. Clearly something else is the problem because other than the increased duration, his old stealth was significantly stronger given it was full invisibility rather than camouflage.

undesirable teamSep 4, 20176 votes

make him a melee champion xd

SukishooSep 4, 20173 votes

So drop him from 550 to 175? ... right xD

Mens Hair ClubSep 5, 20171 votes

woah dude, we don't need to gut him

koshkyraSep 4, 20174 votes

Nerf his ult range from 300 to 200 imo

DuskDaUmbreonSep 4, 20174 votes

I feel like 25 points less range would be more impactful than you think for his laning. As much as people seem to think he's strong in lane, he's actually laughable. Especially since he runs out of mana so fast, and you can actually use his passive to get more healing out of Doran's Shield.

Maybe a bit less range on his ultimate? 250 instead of 300 would have an impact, but wouldn't outright cripple him.

Jet SettSep 4, 20173 votes

We should make the detection range larger than his base auto range since most of the time he'll be trying to use his ult after Q. This will prevent him from having too much lane pressure before he hits any major powerspikes. That and his E does insane early damage compared to most other abilities, it's actually strange that someone who's supposed to be weak early is more dangerous in an extended trade than some other ADC's at that point.

ItzEvonixSep 4, 20173 votes

can we just put a cheese symbol over whoever hes closest to, like how rengars ult works, or how warwicks W works. thanks :)

PimpStickNasusSep 4, 20172 votes

Make his stealth radius bigger so you can react to him unless he's ulted. Nerfing his auto range would feel like shit. Or make the reset count for less/remove it. Like make it reset the cool down to 2 seconds or just don't have the reset second one being a pretty big buff

The DeckownerSep 4, 20172 votes

Nerf his E base damage so he can actually be weak early.

Final Spark LuxSep 4, 20171 votes

The problem is either his ult, or his stealth. Personally, I feel like what makes him strong is his ult, but what makes him broken is his stealth ontop of that ult. If twitch didn't have stealth, he's still be strong because of the way he scaled, and the way his ult works, but that ontop of a stealth that lasts long enough for him to loop around the enemy team and sit waiting until they engage, only to melt everyone from the back of the enemy lines, is not fun -_-. I can't even ward against it.

I don't think the 25 range would do much. He isn't really a problem in lane while CSing if you know how to vs him. Even if you stomp your lane against him, the second he gets 1 item, he can one shot you from stealth with a free AS steroid ontop of 825 range. Personally, and I know this would get a lot of hate from twitch players, I would remove the stealth mechanic from his kit, not even his Q entirely. The stealth mechanic just isn't healthy for the game, moreso now since they changed it.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 4, 20172 votes

Control wards work against camouflage, which is what Twitch has.

Final Spark LuxSep 4, 20171 votes

Sure, let me throw down my single pink ward. That'll be sure to stop him. Nobody is ever gonna be smart enough to walk around that, or blow it up before a fight even starts. I'm very well aware how control wards work, and what twitch has. It still doesn't matter. You sit behind the ward, the ward gets cleared before you fight. Sit in-front of it, the ward isn't gonna sense him anyways. Downvote all you want, but stealth is his problem.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 4, 20171 votes

You do realize that his stealth goes away as soon as he uses any ability but R, right?

As soon as he tries to auto you, you can see him. And he can't just stealth in the middle of combat and run away anymore, Riot fixed that bullshit.

His ult also lasts 6 seconds. You can back off for six meager seconds and then re-engage.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 4, 20172 votes

First of all: No control wards don't work against twitch. Second: As soon as he pops out of stealth he already used 1-2AAs before you can actually see him. Which can already be over 1k dmg. If twitch is SO easy to counter how comes his winrate rises with elo? How has he an AVERAGE winrate of 55% as a LATEGAME HYPERCARRY. Stop justifying that rat.

BârdSep 4, 20171 votes

It would seem that the problem here is that you have no idea how to use control wards.

SlythionSep 4, 20171 votes

His problem lies in itemization and damage creep, not in his kit itself. A range nerf would be extremely impactful, probably more than most of us could guesstimate tbh. Limiting range effects almost every situation for a champion, especially an adc. Farming, trades, and itemization are just some of the things that could change with a range nerf, which could impact his matchups and synergies. It's almost a domino effect if you understand.

Give him adjustment nerfs for the time being that doesn't have the potential to completely fuck him up. After that Riot needs to really look at itemization (for both adc and supports) and runes/mastery changes. If they change masteries for S8 and if the rune system works the game in the right direction then i have a feeling Twitch won't be such a problem.

The important thing is to really analyze the state of the game and why a champion is broken rather than just saying "Twitch is op rn, let's directly nerf this guy without looking at what else could effect him in the future".

I'm not ripping on you or anything either btw, just trying to explain my view on the situation. If anyone disagrees, I'd love to hear their opinion

GayFluffyUnicornSep 4, 20171 votes

Yeah what could possibly be wrong with his kit. Besides range steroid, piercing ult, AD steroid, AS steroid, a slow, a burst and stealth his kit offers nothing good. Only items right.

SlythionSep 5, 20171 votes

I can list only the pro's of a kit for any champion, it'll make them seem OP. Nearly every champion in league has parts of their kit that's "toxic" or unfun (such as his range and stealth) or steriods of some kind (piercing ult, as steroid, etc). To use this format as an argument is quite ridiculous. No one complained about old Urgot because he wasn't good or popular, but you can bet if he was then that auto-lock lane bully part of him would've been posted about 24/7

My point is, every single champion has something unfun about them that people only care about when they're strong or meta. When was the last time people cared that there's almost not counterplay to Eve's ganks? Probably back when she's was meta. If you think even half the people complaining about Twitch actually care about his kit rather than his current power and frequency in games, you're kidding yourself. This is a pattern seen over and over and over again on the boards, this "hate Twitch" phase isn't new or special.

The way to make Twitch more fun is to lessen his power, not change his kit. His power resides in the early-game adc + support itemization duo that's dominating the game right now, Twitch just abuses it better than most other adcs.

Hence my solution: slight nerf for now that doesn't seriously effect his playstyle like a range nerf would, and focus on the real issue that's making Twitch an outlier.