A Serious Issue That Affects All League Players, In Depth Article, Red Please Respond

jaymc1130··20 votes·1,759 views

TLDR: It is possible to game the system, without breaking any rules in the ToS, to artificially manipulate your ranking. Is this something we want as a community?

Preface The ranking system as it currently functions allows some strange things to happen that give players the option to artificially manipulate their displayed ranking in such as way as to seem lower than their actual skill level. While this has no effect on a player's MMR, and thus no effect on who a player plays with or against in a match, or their actual skill level, it can appear that a player in a match is of a much lesser skill level than the rest of the players in the match. By using the dodge feature to avoid promotional series it is possible to keep any displayed ranking a player so desires that has been achieved previously. This doesn't do anything to the quality of the games, as MMR is what dictates the quality of matches, but keeping a lower displayed ranking than your MMR would dictate you should play at does have an effect at the end of the season as the end of season rewards are awarded based on the displayed ranking of the League System.

The Issue at Hand If a player so desires, it is possible to play in much higher MMR ranges with a significantly lower displayed ranking. If a player wants to achieve the lowest possible displayed ranking of Bronze 5 the player could, If he so chose, elect to play his worst champions and roles for a large number of games to sink the account down to that level. As we all know, the rules of the ToS state players are not allowed to intentionally feed, grief, afk, verbally abuse others and other such rules that make achieving sinking to that level as a skilled player rather difficult while still obeying the rules. This leaves pretty much only the option for a player to elect to play what he knows he is absolutely terrible at playing, as it is not acceptable to intentionally feed or anything of that nature to lose games, but a player playing something they play poorly for many games very poorly indeed can achieve that without breaking the rules. If, for example, I were to chose to play something like Lee Sin I would not be able to play it at the diamond level I am capable of playing my best champions at and I would be very likely to lose a huge number of games and sink my rating. I could then elect to avoid promo series by dodging them and go back to playing my best champs to rise back up to an appropriate MMR range while keeping, say, a Silver ranking, If I so desired. There isn't a real reason for any one to do this, it doesn't help you in any way, you still play competition of your skill level since MMR is the only thing that decides who you play against, and to take this action would also eliminate me from season end rewards, but it is something that is possible to do if a player elects to, essentially, troll themselves. As we all know, it is not against the rules to play champs you are very bad at in a ranked game, or even completely new to in a ranked match (release days for new champs any one?) and poor player performance is not a punishable offense (or lets face it, we all would be banned, we all have bad games) and this makes sense because it would be a terrible precedent to set to ban players who simply don't perform well in match. We might all like to see Kaceytron get some come uppins, lol, but it would be the wrong action to take. And we all can agree two wrongs won't make a right. So players who play badly, as Riot is fond of telling us, get a pass.

The issue is, what happens when a player of higher skill elects to play in this fashion and deliberately play things he is bad at? Sure, this gives us the chance to see streams like a Gosu "bronze to master run in one week!" and those streams provide us entertainment, inspiration, hope, and an education. But he still had to get that account to bronze some how. We know that buying one is not an option. That breaks Riot ToS. So he can't do that. And he also can't intentionally feed or anything since that would break the rules. So, in order to get there he has to do something. That thing is playing champs he is legit bad at (we use bad in a relative sense, I think we can all agree he is a skilled player and his skill on any champ is liable to be better than many players) and allow his natural lower win rate/skill level with those champs sink the account. In cases like this it would be counterproductive to dodge the promotional series since the purpose of the stream is take that account from bronze to master tier. But some player's do elect to dodge those promotional series and maintain that "bronze" ranking despite the fact that their rising MMR will keep them playing against equal and fair competition. As stated, there is no real reason to do that except to troll one's self and maybe freak out the occasional high level player who looks at the match history on op.gg and sees a "bronzie" in his match. It can be some what amusing, but it doesn't really harm any one. It seems not much at all happens, a naturally lower win rate tanks the account, and switching back to higher win rate champs returns the account to the higher skill range regardless of the displayed and artificially manipulated ranking.

Several days ago, on Reddit, this thread started to receive a lot of attention: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4h6qis/liveyiordiehard_the_bronze_5_player_with_platinum/?sort=new

Now, this thread breaks several forum rules here (as well as on Reddit), but it has still garnered a fair amount of response and remains up for the time being. The question I pose to the rest of the community is this: Here we have a clear example of this type of thing occurring, a player electing to play his worst champs (which we know is not against the rules, even if it isn't the nicest thing to do) and then follow up by switching to his best champs once he has achieved his desired ranking to keep it displayed despite the fact he climbs above that skill range and plays appropriate competition. Is this something we, as a community like? We know its not against the rules, but do we like it? Would we like it if lots of players chose to do this instead of a miniscule fraction? Should this type of thing be possible to do and if not do we need to change the way the system functions so that this is not possible? Is it even a big deal to the community at large or is it fine for a player to elect, essentially, to punish themselves and forgo end of season rewards? What do we think about this type of thing? And perhaps even more importantly, what is Riot's stance on something like this that, technically, breaks no rules in ToS?

This affects all League of Legends players since this is an option that is available to us all. Most of us choose not to take that option (who wants to punish themselves and troll themselves? Not a whole lot of people probably) and many more of us did not even realize that this was an option available to us. Are we ok with this being an option?

I personally have no issue. If you want to punish yourself that way, go ahead, it's not a choice I would make. But I want to know what we all think. And I want to know what Riot thinks. Should we force players to only play things they are good at in ranked? Do we need a system in place to ensure no one plays a first time champ in ranked? These are all questions we should ask ourselves. These are questions we should all give answers to so that we, as a community, can figure out how we feel about this type of thing. So, let's discuss, and hey Rioters, come give us your opinions as well.

I would ask that players upvote or downvote this thread based on the following criteria: If you believe this is an issue worth discussing and considering give it an upvote. If you think this is an issue that is moot and has little or no effect on League of Legends give this thread a downvote. That will be the easiest way to see if we as a community think its worth talking about.

What do you all think?

Edit 1: Some things proposed so far that are worth consideration:

  1. Changing the baseline starting MMR point for all fresh 30 accounts to no longer be above the half way point on the ladder. This will force all accounts to have to climb, eliminating the 51% of the player base that will have sink MMR wise from that baseline starting point from having to sink and have potentially negative impacts on the playerbase and ladder. Recommendation at the moment is a Bronze 5-3 starting point as opposed to a Silver 4-3 starting point.

  2. The scrapping of the League System and a return to the simpler and less complicated single system using only MMR/ELO. The theory is there will be less issues (like the one that is the topic of this thread and other issues) if the systems are less convoluted.

  3. Bringing back Solo Queue and Team Ranked 5s. Give players more options of game modes. Different things are possible depending on the number of teammates allowed, give players a choice of what types of teammate actions they prefer to see on a regular basis.

  4. Temporary Ranked play ineligibility. Losing a significant number of matches within a given time frame locks ranked play for an account (perhaps in a similar fashion to chat restricted accounts not being allowed to play ranked until they achieve enough normal wins) for a period of time (it could be win based, or straight up time based. Hit the require win total or wait long enough it unlocks) to prevent potential systems abuse.

34 Comments

xl Kirito lx8 votes

Rank is meaningless, MMR is everything. MMR is also hidden, so people use rank. It doesn't really impact anything. If a diamond wants to walk around with a B5 rank, but a D5 MMR, let him.

The most valid complaint here is that people have a tendency to drop in rank when they choose to. If anything, the most obvious fix is that fresh level 30 accounts should be placed into B3, instead of S3. People who are going to climb will, and those who are going to fall will. Nothing changes. At best, it makes silver mean something as a rank, and might save a few people from their games.

jaymc11301 votes

[{quoted}](name=xl Kirito lx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NwTEW0t2,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-05-04T05:19:48.703+0000)

Rank is meaningless, MMR is everything. MMR is also hidden, so people use rank. It doesn't really impact anything. If a diamond wants to walk around with a B5 rank, but a D5 MMR, let him.

The most valid complaint here is that people have a tendency to drop in rank when they choose to. If anything, the most obvious fix is that fresh level 30 accounts should be placed into B3, instead of S3. People who are going to climb will, and those who are going to fall will. Nothing changes. At best, it makes silver mean something as a rank, and might save a few people from their games.

This is a very constructive response! Thanks for the input.

I think I would be inclined to agree with you, it doesn't really harm any one, and if Riot changed the baseline starting point it would literally affect nobody or even have the potential to "harm" other players.

I think I also agree that change could make the silver rank more meaningful. I've said for years that having the starting point for new to ranked players be just above the half way point up the ladder is kind of silly. If half the players are going to be ranked below that why start every player just above that? The system functioning in that way only causes some frustration for lower level players and it is a problem that could be eliminated with a solution of that type.

Thanks again for being the first posted response and for sharing your opinion!

F033 votes

who cares, dynamic queue already ruined rank

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

who cares, dynamic queue already ruined rank

I'm sure many agree with this sentiment. Is there a solution to this problem in your mind? Would you like to see the return of Solo Q and Rank Team 5s to go along with Dynamic Q? I personally believe that is the right way to go myself, but I'd love to see what you all think too.

F032 votes

{quoted}

I'm sure many agree with this sentiment. Is there a solution to this problem in your mind? Would you like to see the return of Solo Q and Rank Team 5s to go along with Dynamic Q? I personally believe that is the right way to go myself, but I'd love to see what you all think too.

solo queue and ranked 5s needs to comeback

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

solo queue and ranked 5s needs to comeback

I'd agree, I think we need both of those things back immediately.

Sythriel Draken2 votes

I actually agree that this is a serious issue that riot DESPERATELY needs to address. I was gold 5 3 weeks ago.. Now I'm silver 4/3(working my way back up) and most of my losses that dropped me from gold back to silver came from fresh silver 3 accounts, boosted players, or those dropping their MMR on purpose.

it's frustrating trying to get back to gold right now because I'm still running into this issue. hell, I've managed to get some fresh level 30's in a few of my games when I had gold 3 mmr!

What's even more frustrating is riot actually encourages streamers to "boost" friends accounts. There was a riot employee on a twitch stream one time that was watching a challenger level player (like Pants R Dragon but it wasn't him) play with silver and golds on a smurph account in ranked under the title (boosting players to gold)

Dynamic queue is just a way for people to legally boost accounts. Hell, it's getting to the point that my bronze friends are inviting me to their games because of my gold support skill level being able to carry those games and i still get about 18-21 points a win. I've only done this once and afterwards I felt really bad for ANYONE trying to level through the ranking system this season.

jaymc11301 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sythriel Draken,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NwTEW0t2,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-05-04T06:49:39.271+0000)

I actually agree that this is a serious issue that riot DESPERATELY needs to address. I was gold 5 3 weeks ago.. Now I'm silver 4/3(working my way back up) and most of my losses that dropped me from gold back to silver came from fresh silver 3 accounts, boosted players, or those dropping their MMR on purpose.

Well, we can't do much about those dropping on purpose. Playing badly isn't against the rules and we have no way to determine intent.

Boosted players and boosters are much harder to detect given how Dynamic now affords them new opportunities. So that's hard to regulate as well, but Riot has some tools and they do what they can on this note.

The fresh accounts though, this is a problem we can solve. If the system is designed in such a way to automatically grant new players a rating slightly above the half way point on the ladder, and slightly more than half of all players will wind up below that point then why on earth start all fresh accounts at that level? It obviously causes issues and it would be best, as Goosetard proposes to simply start players at the lowest ranking and make them earn any higher rankings. That's a simple problem that could potentially be solved very easily and is probably the problem most likely to find some sort of resolution because of this thread.

it's frustrating trying to get back to gold right now because I'm still running into this issue. hell, I've managed to get some fresh level 30's in a few of my games when I had gold 3 mmr!

It can be frustrating and believe me, we all understand that frustration. Don't let it get to you though! Over a large enough sample size things should work out just fine indeed. The sample size required in my opinion is also too large, but we don't have a good way to decrease that unless you start to take into account individual skill metrics and personal performance in each match. And that comes with a whole host of its own issues making that aspect something we've debated about for years with no real progress.

What's even more frustrating is riot actually encourages streamers to "boost" friends accounts. There was a riot employee on a twitch stream one time that was watching a challenger level player (like Pants R Dragon but it wasn't him) play with silver and golds on a smurph account in ranked under the title (boosting players to gold)

Technically, this isn't against the rules either. If you choose to play a smurf with friends in a lower MMR range Riot says this is acceptable and it is allowed. It'd be tough to regulate this also. If a challenger wants to play with silver friends, well, technically that is up to him and is his choice to make.

Dynamic queue is just a way for people to legally boost accounts. Hell, it's getting to the point that my bronze friends are inviting me to their games because of my gold support skill level being able to carry those games and i still get about 18-21 points a win. I've only done this once and afterwards I felt really bad for ANYONE trying to level through the ranking system this season.

Dynamic queue was not the best thought out concept either in my opinion. Most players I think are of the opinion that having ONLY Dynamic queue and not having a Solo queue or a Ranked Team 5s queue was a bad move and here I would agree completely. I don't think implementing Dynamic queue was a good thing for the game overall.

PbJMpP4xzk2 votes

oh god there is 1000000000 things to fix before even thinking about something like that, but if you did this as a lawer student homework project then good job lol

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

oh god there is 1000000000 things to fix before even thinking about something like that, but if you did this as a lawer student homework project then good job lol

Thanks for the input! There are many things worth thinking about in terms of stuff about the game we think might need a fix or alteration. Priority is important and I don't think it will be uncommon for people to share your opinion that this is something that has little impact and could wait on the back burner.

BLU Medic2 votes

This could easily be fixed by changing the ranked system to start at Bronze V on newly ranked level 30 accounts, so everyone just has to climb.

jaymc11301 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLU Medic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NwTEW0t2,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2016-05-05T04:58:22.855+0000)

This could easily be fixed by changing the ranked system to start at Bronze V on newly ranked level 30 accounts, so everyone just has to climb.

This strikes me as one of the simplest solutions and easiest fixes imaginable. I've stated for years I think the starting point for ranked play should be lowered, by definition, since more than 50% of players will fall below that point, it is a poor starting mmr point for the player base. Sure, it makes a kind of sense to assume a player is average when no evidence of any sort has been accrued, and sure other similar ranking systems start from a similar point, but it doesn't change the fact that this starting point has caused various issues.

I'd agree with you, simply move it and there will be less issues.

jaymc11301 votes

Thanks for the first response! We appear to have one player so far who is not concerned by this at all as he/she has downvoted the post.

If I may ask mystery downvoter, why do you believe this is a non issue?

jaymc11301 votes

A couple of downvotes, but more upvotes so far. Make sure you remember to respond and post your opinions and thoughts folks! The upvote/downvote system is great for seeing how we feel about this at a glance, but only constructive feedback can result in any changes we feel should be made. Thanks for all the opinions so far! Keep letting us know how you feel about this topic!

Goosetard1 votes

I'm going to admit that I skimmed a lot of this, but when a streamer does a ____ to master stream, I was under the impression that they either:

  • Leveled a smurf with bots
  • Leveled a smurf themselves
  • Paid someone to level a smurf for them
  • Bought a fresh lvl 30 account

3/4 of these things are against the ToS, but that doesn't really mean they won't do it, just that they can't get caught. The reason I assumed this is that the same 3 of those 4 options that are against the ToS are also a hell of a lot easier and less time consuming than doing what you proposed, which is tanking an account to Bronze.

jaymc11302 votes

{quoted}

I'm going to admit that I skimmed a lot of this, but when a streamer does a ____ to master stream, I was under the impression that they either:

  • Leveled a smurf with bots
  • Leveled a smurf themselves
  • Paid someone to level a smurf for them
  • Bought a fresh lvl 30 account

3/4 of these things are against the ToS, but that doesn't really mean they won't do it, just that they can't get caught. The reason I assumed this is that the same 3 of those 4 options that are against the ToS are also a hell of a lot easier and less time consuming than doing what you proposed, which is tanking an account to Bronze.

True story, its a very difficult time consuming thing to do and the only way aside from leveling a smurf to achieve it. Either one of those options is actually incredibly time consuming. Which I think is ok, it you are willing to invest a month or two worth of game time to level a smurf, or spend a month or two playing exclusively champs you suck at to be able to do this later on down the line, then ok. That's only your own time your wasting (although I doubt any one doing these two things considers it wasted time).

Its a long post, skimming it will be what I assume most people do, which is why the TLDR is at the top to give you the gist. The question I would ask you is, since its not against the rules to do either of these last two described things, using a bot to level a smurf, paying another to level one for you, or buying an account to accomplish this are against the rules, should the two aforementioned things also be? Should players be allowed to make a smurf to do this or to elect to play only champs they suck at to do this?

I don't know if I have a solution to that if its decided we don't like it, hence the thread and seeing if we, as a community, in fact do not like it enough that we think we need a solution. Or whether we think its a complete non factor and it needs no solution because there is no problem.

Thanks for responding, and if you get back and answer this question thank you for that as well!

Goosetard3 votes

I couldn't quite parse which things you meant were and were not against the rules. Bots, other people playing on your account, or buying accounts are all against the rules as I understand it.

There oughta be a way to acquire a new level 30 account from an existing account, with RP and/or IP, and then Riot could control its starting mmr based on the purchaser. Best way to control it is to allow it to happen on your terms; think lifting prohibition and taxing alcohol or what iTunes did for anti-piracy.

I think the Rank/Tier system is a bad facade on the Elo system that created as many problems as it solved. As I understand it, it was implemented because of anxiety about watching your Elo drop after any single loss. I started ranked in season 3, so it's all I know, but it seems to me that the anxiety they sought to fix has been replaced by:

  • Anxiety about promos
  • Anxiety about LP +/- differentials
  • Anxiety about being placed in games with people of dramatically different rank (but similar mmr)
  • The ability to pair players of radically different mmrs in the same party

I think the whole thing should be scrapped and we should go back to the old system. It would solve the problem you're describing. However, I don't think the problem you're describing has an easy enough fix to warrant being fixed, since it's a pretty fringe case.

I went over and read the reddit thread. I'm not sure why you're trying to bring this to light here or giving the reddit thread any attention at all, based on your participation there. The reason this is so hard to detect is because the system can't detect people playing like they're a bad player, because being a bad player doesn't break any rules. This is what you were arguing so passionately in the other thread: that, despite it being obvious to everyone and even admitted by the player that he's not playing as well as he can, you can't show that he did singularly bad actions intentionally, so his overall pattern of poor play doesn't break the rules.

But it does. Not playing to win in ranked is against the rules. Just because you can't show that he intentionally took singular bad actions doesn't mean that there was not a pattern of intentionally bad play. We just don't have a system that can detect intent. And we never well. So we'll never be able to prove that it's happening without someone admitting to it.

Once his ranking is tanked, it won't hurt anyone. But every dodge in a lobby and every loss that he intended to receive does hurt the community at large a very little bit. Just because those bits are small and stop once he hits the bronze ranking he wants doesn't mean that they're ok.

We can't solve this problem, even if the net gain made it worth the time (which I don't think it does, not when the large problems we have still exist). In my opinion, it's just another tiny bullet point on the list of reasons the ranked system is bad and we should go back to pure Elo, and on the list of reasons there should be a legal way to acquire a new level 30.

jaymc11302 votes

{quoted}

I couldn't quite parse which things you meant were and were not against the rules. Bots, other people playing on your account, or buying accounts are all against the rules as I understand it.

Yeah, its late, I'm not being quite as clear and concise as I usually am. Apologies. Bots of any sort or payment of any sort for a service from a 3rd party are against the rules. Making a new account for yourself is not. Playing poorly is not.

There oughta be a way to acquire a new level 30 account from an existing account, with RP and/or IP, and then Riot could control its starting mmr based on the purchaser. Best way to control it is to allow it to happen on your terms; think lifting prohibition and taxing alcohol or what iTunes did for anti-piracy.

It would be nice to have something like that. Good idea!

I think the Rank/Tier system is a bad facade on the Elo system that created as many problems as it solved. As I understand it, it was implemented because of anxiety about watching your Elo drop after any single loss. I started ranked in season 3, so it's all I know, but it seems to me that the anxiety they sought to fix has been replaced by:

  • Anxiety about promos
  • Anxiety about LP +/- differentials
  • Anxiety about being placed in games with people of dramatically different rank (but similar mmr)
  • The ability to pair players of radically different mmrs in the same party

I think the whole thing should be scrapped and we should go back to the old system. It would solve the problem you're describing. However, I don't think the problem you're describing has an easy enough fix to warrant being fixed, since it's a pretty fringe case.

I agree completely here. The cover sheet that is the League System was a poorly thought out concept and I also feel it has contributed nothing positive to the game, but it has had negative effects. I would also prefer the simpler MMR/ELO system.

I went over and read the reddit thread. I'm not sure why you're trying to bring this to light here or giving the reddit thread any attention at all, based on your participation there. The reason this is so hard to detect is because the system can't detect people playing like they're a bad player, because being a bad player doesn't break any rules. This is what you were arguing so passionately in the other thread: that, despite it being obvious to everyone and even admitted by the player that he's not playing as well as he can, you can't show that he did singularly bad actions intentionally, so his overall pattern of poor play doesn't break the rules.

Well, the Reddit thread isn't constructive in any way. It wasn't intended to be. It was only intended to hurt another person. I don't think that's a particularly good way to address a topic or situation. I think addressing it as we are here in this thread is a more productive method. The Reddit thread will never see a Riot response because of the intention of that thread. Here, with my thread, we have the potential to have Rioter input on this matter and this provides a chance to positively contribute to the community.

But it does. Not playing to win in ranked is against the rules. Just because you can't show that he intentionally took singular bad actions doesn't mean that there was not a pattern of intentionally bad play. We just don't have a system that can detect intent. And we never well. So we'll never be able to prove that it's happening without someone admitting to it.

Fair point and this is something I think worth considering adaptations to our current rules for. I don't really know what adaptations to make or suggest, hence why I'm asking for your ideas.

Once his ranking is tanked, it won't hurt anyone. But every dodge in a lobby and every loss that he intended to receive does hurt the community at large a very little bit. Just because those bits are small and stop once he hits the bronze ranking he wants doesn't mean that they're ok.

I'd be in agreement here.

We can't solve this problem, even if the net gain made it worth the time (which I don't think it does, not when the large problems we have still exist). In my opinion, it's just another tiny bullet point on the list of reasons the ranked system is bad and we should go back to pure Elo, and on the list of reasons there should be a legal way to acquire a new level 30.

This is my ultimate conclusion also, its the only one I could reach that makes any sense. I too would support scrapping the League System entirely and returning to the better system. Neither is perfect. But having one overlay the other only exacerbates the flaws in both. Keep it simple and there will be less issues, though we will still have some. In the end, the best net result is to keep those issues to a minimum in my opinion and return to a simpler system.

Goosetard1 votes

Fair enough. +1

Hope you can keep this thread alive; it's good discussion. Hint: Try putting "eyebrows" in the title.

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

Fair enough. +1

Hope you can keep this thread alive; it's good discussion. Hint: Try putting "eyebrows" in the title.

Hmm. I'll consider that! Thanks!

BLU Medic1 votes

It's really not hurting anyone. They're still playing at the skill level they're supposed to be, the only difference is the purely cosmetic rank displayed.

Most people you lose a game with, you never see a game unless you're in a high MMR anyway.

jaymc11301 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLU Medic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NwTEW0t2,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-05-04T06:31:43.936+0000)

It's really not hurting anyone. They're still playing at the skill level they're supposed to be, the only difference is the purely cosmetic rank displayed.

Most people you lose a game with, you never see a game unless you're in a high MMR anyway.

Fair points, and thanks for the response!

jaymc11301 votes

Time for me to hit the hay folks. I'll be back tomorrow to continue our conversations on this topic.

So far we have some suggestions that are worth considering. Changing the baseline starting point for fresh accounts so that the baseline is no longer above the half way point on the ladder. And a return to the ELO system (which really requires no changes aside from eliminating the League System which only serves as a display anyways). Night all!

The Deckowner1 votes

this shows how the introduction of the league system on top of the mmr/elo system is pretty bad.

jaymc11301 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NwTEW0t2,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-05-04T15:29:18.390+0000)

this shows how the introduction of the league system on top of the mmr/elo system is pretty bad.

It appears pretty short sighted at this point. Do you have a preference in regards to that? Do you think we should have only one simple system instead of two awkward ones? Do you think we need an all new one? Would a return to just MMR be better? Express your opinion and thanks for participating!

Dukues1 votes

I have brought up the new accounts thing a lot. Its really a big f u to anyone who has played the game awhile and achieved silver, just to throw half the new population into silver (usually around silver 3). Then half of those players eventually get demoted to bronze or quit playing so they don't get demoted to bronze anyways. They have no fun because they are playing better players and continuously losing. It also ruins most the games they play in because they pretty much auto lose the game for their team. I do agree the auto losing and keeping your mmr low is a bad idea as well. Once the player actually starts playing he is not hurting anyone but the fact that he/she is throwing so many games a season should be ban worthy.

They really should have some sort of penalty if your rank drops too far over a certain period of time. This would help get rid of boosted accounts since most of those players can't play at the level they get boosted to and drop fairly quickly. It would also lower the incentive to do what this player is doing and trolling themselves to a lower rank.

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

I have brought up the new accounts thing a lot. Its really a big f u to anyone who has played the game awhile and achieved silver, just to throw half the new population into silver (usually around silver 3). Then half of those players eventually get demoted to bronze or quit playing so they don't get demoted to bronze anyways. They have no fun because they are playing better players and continuously losing. It also ruins most the games they play in because they pretty much auto lose the game for their team. I do agree the auto losing and keeping your mmr low is a bad idea as well. Once the player actually starts playing he is not hurting anyone but the fact that he/she is throwing so many games a season should be ban worthy.

Many players, I believe, will agree with you in regards to the baseline starting point. It is a rather silly staring point.

You cannot assume that players do not have fun though. Some will, some won't we all have fun in different ways. My primary concern is that one players fun not ruin another player's fun in game. Two kids playing on a beach and one likes to build sandcastles, the other likes to destroy them, its not cool for the kid who likes to play Godzilla to wreck the work of the kid who likes to play Architect. If Godzilla wants to rampage, he should make his own castle. The auto losing can be a concern, but that conversation will circle back around to intent in relation to poor performance. A difficult issue to regulate. And perhaps the solution there is to simply remove that temptation as a possibility.

They really should have some sort of penalty if your rank drops too far over a certain period of time. This would help get rid of boosted accounts since most of those players can't play at the level they get boosted to and drop fairly quickly. It would also lower the incentive to do what this player is doing and trolling themselves to a lower rank.

Now this is an interesting thought to consider. I'm not sure I would be against something like this. What if, for example, losing 70% of your ranked matches in a week span (minimum qualification of, say, 10 games? 20 games) earned an account a Ranked Play temporary ban? If a player has that happen, that player will be limited to normal games for a period of time, maybe until he wins 10 normal matches, maybe for a period of 24 or 48 hours or something. This proposal is certainly an interesting solution. Well done! Thanks for the input!

Dukues2 votes

Now this is an interesting thought to consider. I'm not sure I would be against something like this. What if, for example, losing 70% of your ranked matches in a week span (minimum qualification of, say, 10 games? 20 games) earned an account a Ranked Play temporary ban? If a player has that happen, that player will be limited to normal games for a period of time, maybe until he wins 10 normal matches, maybe for a period of 24 or 48 hours or something. This proposal is certainly an interesting solution. Well done! Thanks for the input!

I like your sand castle analogy. Tilt does happen so the range would have to be fairly large. I know in past seasons I have lost 10 games in a row simply from continuing playing while titled. The most I have dropped is 2 divisions in a week but I could see certain situations where more would be possible. However, my thought is more on dropping a large amount in rank over a short period of time. As this thread has pointed out the rank an account shows can be significantly different than the accounts mmr. So really for my thought to work it would have to be based on ones mmr. I do know the best numbers to use but say if you drop 250 mmr over say a month or two your account is automatically red flagged and reviewed. I can't remember anymore as I did not play much ranked before the new system but wasn't like 1200 mmr silver and 1400 gold? So if you rmmr drops say more than a division over a quick period of time then it should be investigated.

I have seen accounts get banned in the past for rising rank too quickly and I believe banned because Riot could prove someone else was boosting their account and playing on it. I guess Riot would just go about trying to catch accounts that way but I think it should be fairly obvious when some accounts are bought and sold. I mean there is no excuse for a diamond level account to drop to gold... especially over a short period of time unless something illegal or at least unethical is going on. I know I have seen prior season plat accounts in mid silver in past seasons who have hundreds of ranked games played. Some accounts were high gold or plat that season and then a couple months with no activity followed by many games resulting in many losses until the account is in low silver.... That has to be more than just taking a break with some decay involved.

Not sure what the best system would be but the fact that all of us have played with boosted accounts and can pretty easily tell. Granted, it would take longer to catch boosted accounts if you were only trying to catch them when they ranked down instead of up. So I am not saying Riot should stop trying to ban boosted accounts while they are being boosted, just saying they should also look into accounts that drop a significant amount in rank over a small portion of time.

jaymc11301 votes

{quoted}

I like your sand castle analogy. Tilt does happen so the range would have to be fairly large. I know in past seasons I have lost 10 games in a row simply from continuing playing while titled. The most I have dropped is 2 divisions in a week but I could see certain situations where more would be possible. However, my thought is more on dropping a large amount in rank over a short period of time. As this thread has pointed out the rank an account shows can be significantly different than the accounts mmr. So really for my thought to work it would have to be based on ones mmr. I do know the best numbers to use but say if you drop 250 mmr over say a month or two your account is automatically red flagged and reviewed. I can't remember anymore as I did not play much ranked before the new system but wasn't like 1200 mmr silver and 1400 gold? So if you rmmr drops say more than a division over a quick period of time then it should be investigated.

I don't know if that range is enough to take into account fringe cases of players playing tilted and losing a 10 game stretch like you had. I think with the range described here it might knock you out in that situation. Which I could make a case for being alright, but I think that range would have to be a little greater. Something more in the 1 tier range. If you were at a, say, gold 2 MMR and ranking and some how manage to tank from there to silver 2 then its a significant enough amount to put a block on ranked games for a time period without being so significant that it allows the tanking account to go to far with it. Playing within about a tier seems pretty reasonable.

I have seen accounts get banned in the past for rising rank too quickly and I believe banned because Riot could prove someone else was boosting their account and playing on it. I guess Riot would just go about trying to catch accounts that way but I think it should be fairly obvious when some accounts are bought and sold. I mean there is no excuse for a diamond level account to drop to gold... especially over a short period of time unless something illegal or at least unethical is going on. I know I have seen prior season plat accounts in mid silver in past seasons who have hundreds of ranked games played. Some accounts were high gold or plat that season and then a couple months with no activity followed by many games resulting in many losses until the account is in low silver.... That has to be more than just taking a break with some decay involved.

Well, I will say that last season it took me less than 70 matches to hit plat 1 one a fresh account (ev3carriesu, my one trick for the season for funsies) and I then managed to tank it all the way back down to plat 5 over 100 games (tilt op) before playing it back up to diamond 5 promos in the preseason. 98% of those games were on eve, so its not even like I changed champs, I just had a really bad stretch when I was mentally unprepared for that level of play for about a month. Its definitely possible for a Diamond to sink an account without doing anything unnatural, even to gold levels (literally, I was 1 more loss away from a demotion back to gold, tilt tilt tilt!), but it wasn't in a short time period either. It took me a month of tilting hard to do it. We also have to consider players who, maybe, take a break from playing League. What happens when some one doesn't play for a few months? (For that matter, and I just thought of this, DECAY!!! We will come back to decay) When they return to playing they certainly won't be as capable, they won't be in the zone, they will be rusty. And that rust will definitely cause a drop if they play rusty.

Also, what about decay? If a player in master tier wanted to he could elect to let an account decay to gold 1, then choose to dodge all the promos. That player would never stop playing at Master Tier MMR, since decay only affects the League System and not MMR, but it would appear there is a gold player in Master Tier now! The only real solution I could think of for this last scenario is a return to the MMR/ELO system would also eliminate this type of thing from happening.

Not sure what the best system would be but the fact that all of us have played with boosted accounts and can pretty easily tell. Granted, it would take longer to catch boosted accounts if you were only trying to catch them when they ranked down instead of up. So I am not saying Riot should stop trying to ban boosted accounts while they are being boosted, just saying they should also look into accounts that drop a significant amount in rank over a small portion of time.

This is something I think Riot should consider in the future for sure. If they aren't already, it would be smart of them to start to identify these types of accounts as potential candidates for ill gotten gains and ranks. Nifty thought here. Thanks for all the input!

jaymc11301 votes

Slowly getting more upvotes than downvotes (its a roller coaster up a couple, down a couple, back up a few more), it appears we think, so far, this is something worth at least talking about.

Come share your 2 cents on the matter folks!

jaymc11301 votes

Edited and Updated with the first set of suggestions proposed added to the OP.

Have an opinion on one of them? Come on in and share your thoughts!

jaymc11301 votes

Got some work to do folks, but I'll check this thread again later this evening and get back to any one at that time.

jaymc11301 votes

Just a bump before I get back to work.

jaymc11301 votes

Home for the evening.

Still hoping to get a Red response today or in the near future so we can all see what Rioter's have to say publicly about this topic.

What do you fine folks think this evening? What other suggestions have you got? What other concerns are on your minds?

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