Stop bringing healthy ADCs up, start knocking OP ones down

jacobnipples·Jan 18, 2018·161 votes·5,153 views

It upsets me seeing this Jinx buff, its fairly significant and Jinx is literally fine. Jinx, Cait, Draven, Ashe etc are NOT bad, they are outshined by better adcs thus making them unviable.

Everyone complains about ADC powercreep, LISTEN..

Stop power-creeping them more.

Particularly with ADCs, a low win rate is not always because they're weak. Every game has a ADC in, so all of the ADCs win-rates are comparative to other ADCs. A low win rate does not necessitate buffs.

A year of people complaining about the class as a whole and still no meaningful steps forward. It's not like it's circle-jerking either, pros/high elo streamers alike hate this shit. Listen to us PLEASE

If this jinx buff goes live it'll literally just be getting rid of one problem and creating another, potentially bigger problem. Jinx being significantly buffed in the same patch a major competitor is nerfed just does not make sense at all.

121 Comments

Dorans PantsJan 18, 201858 votes

riot: "if everyone is op, no one is." (forgets that other classes exist) [sg-lulu]

AR URFJan 18, 201825 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dorans Pants,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=No5PoOtJ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-18T14:38:22.656+0000)

riot: "if everyone is op, no one is." (forgets that other classes exist) [sg-lulu]

Rip sustain mages.

Bob the ToastrJan 18, 201827 votes

Rip all mages

Lil Homie bustaJan 18, 201816 votes

bruisers too

We got Yamcha'd

     ![item 2049](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/2049.png)        ![AurelionSol](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/AurelionSol.png) ![Karthus](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Karthus.png) ![Lissandra](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Lissandra.png) ![Taliyah](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Taliyah.png)

item 3070

...

     ![item 2049](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/item/2049.png)         ![Darius](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Darius.png) ![Kled](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Kled.png) ![Tryndamere](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Tryndamere.png) ![Renekton](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Renekton.png) ![Trundle](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Trundle.png) ![Volibear](https://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/16.20.1/img/champion/Volibear.png)

item 3070

Tails9016Jan 19, 20183 votes

I agree with your listed bruisers, but what's so bad about Trundle ? I mean I'm ~~silver 5~~ unranked and don't own Trundle (atm), so I know almost nothing about trundle being in/out of the meta.

Faceroll TacticsJan 19, 20181 votes

When was the last time you saw a trundle?

LordGeovanniJan 19, 20182 votes

I main trundle but i do dumb shit and get it to work by virtue of people not expecting it. Same thing i did with prerework Taric Urgot Poppy Sion Aatrox Galio. Post rework sion support before it was popular. Nautilus support before it was popular. I used to get called a troll alot and told i would be reported but they almost never did because they immediately left post game lobbys. still do get told that but i cant get rid of this level 5 honor despite me not honoring every game because getting extra honor to me is less important than making sure that my teammates are acutally Honorable and toxic or even average players i only honor when i feel that some one was either a good play maker (outside of op champion picks) that made a difference though their play.

rework trundleJan 19, 20182 votes

Hey, plat 5 trundle one trick (don't look up my op gg i got bored of having to catchup with better champions every game) he has no range (175, has to farm and trade within that distance) so he gets countered heavily by range, and it turns out top lane is decided by range (Jayce, Kayle, Teemo, all of them are top tier and do very good against Trundle) or tankiness (believe it or not, Trundle can't outtrade a Maokai or an Ornn ; yet he's supposed to be a tank buster).

I think Riot refuses to acknowledge Trundle is in need of buffs because his kit is too simple (Garen style), and him being buffed would break the game. In fact, he was nerfed after (6.1) the last patch he was meta (5.24)

SujirenJan 18, 201821 votes

Exactly . Rito logic Vayne , Twitch Tristana Xayah are dominating, better buff Jinx . Meanwhile Lucian , Jhin , Caitlyn are trash tier, your just gonna leave them to rot or what? Maybe tune down the overpowered , so others can compete with them?

ThefrostyvikingJan 18, 201819 votes

Cait isn't actually trash tier if you look closely, her winrate post 30-35 minutes is actually good, and before then it's not really bad either.

But because kog, twitch and Vayne are OP she looks much worse than she actually is, because they scale the same or better but they start working much, much faster.

Only issue for her is to actually get to that lategame before enemy Vayne or other OP one ends the game, kinda similar to the situation jinx was in and why people feel her buffs are completely unwarranted.

Sure, winrate and playrate were just about average but jinx's lategame is really solid, it's just that she doesn't reach that point due to others being too strong too fast.

So, rather than making Jinx go...even crazier, nerf the others a bit.

I mean, for some reason Caitlyn has due to her status as a lategame marksman gotten her base attackspeed lowered to the point where she needs like 14 levels to outscale her opponents for the sake of having a weaker early, meanwhile neither kog not Vayne has anything like that.

I frequently play botlane ADC and i kinda feel this is really odd to say the least.

Daddy AntsJan 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Cait isn't actually trash tier if you look closely, her winrate post 30-35 minutes is actually good, and before then it's not really bad either.

But because kog, twitch and Vayne are OP she looks much worse than she actually is, because they scale the same or better but they start working much, much faster.

Only issue for her is to actually get to that lategame before enemy Vayne or other OP one ends the game, kinda similar to the situation jinx was in and why people feel her buffs are completely unwarranted.

Sure, winrate and playrate were just about average but jinx's lategame is really solid, it's just that she doesn't reach that point due to others being too strong too fast.

So, rather than making Jinx go...even crazier, nerf the others a bit.

I mean, for some reason Caitlyn has due to her status as a lategame marksman gotten her base attackspeed lowered to the point where she needs like 14 levels to outscale her opponents for the sake of having a weaker early, meanwhile neither kog not Vayne has anything like that.

I frequently play botlane ADC and i kinda feel this is really odd to say the least.

The math on the Jinx Q buff was done a while ago.

It's a buff at levels 9 - 15.

Power Neutral at 16.

10% nerf at 17-18.

ThefrostyvikingJan 18, 20183 votes

That buff to her passive is big tho, while conditional it's like a free but smaller lethal tempo when it triggers.

Except it also comes with movespeed.

Run 3 items like hurricane, phantom+botrk and she should be able to overcap i think.

If i am not completely outa my mind then if calculating her max level attackspeed with items then you should take her base attackspeed multiplied by her total bonus attackspeed then + added together with her base attackspeed for her final one.

With the items i suggested and base growth (17%), her passive (15%) and new Q (260%) then item 3046 (45%) item 3085 (30%) item 3153 (25%) the total bonus attackspeed ends up being 392% or 3,92 in decimal.

Which makes it something like this : 0,625 x 3,92 = 2,45.

2,45 + 0,625 = ~3,1.

So she reaches 3,1 attackspeed with her passive when she has items.....and i just realized i forgot runes.

End answer is anyhow, a lot, she gets a lot with her passive up.

I consider this a buff as long as she is able to trigger her passive, while a nerf if she can't x)

Now imagine if she gets safe enough to run lethal tempo ontop, hue hue hue.

Sp33d Zer0Jan 18, 20181 votes

while this is true, the loss of the extra aoe crit damage from the 40 AD you lose + the shield makes it unlikely I will start buying bork in my jinx build (even against a bunch of tanks)

ThefrostyvikingJan 18, 20182 votes

What lost 40 AD? O_O

She loses 3 base ad and gains like 0,2 extra AD growth, it's pretty much a null thing in the end.

On PBE i only found the passive change, the Q change and the base stat change, nothing about 40 AD O_O

Or wait, you are on about BT?

I honestly find that i rarely need BT as long as i run overheal, only if like against 2 assassins do i need it.

But if dealing with 1 tank and anything beefy then i always go botrk if possible......sometimes i have to get mercurial for cleanse though.

Sp33d Zer0Jan 18, 20181 votes

Yea, I did mean BT. Sorry if that was unclear.

BT + Overheal gives you around a 500-600 point shield with overheal (IIRC). Mercurial is great for the cleanse. Both of these allow you to put out higher damage once you factor in that 40 ad with an IE crit is 100 damage, spread to 3 people with runaans, with the potential of them splash damaging which stacks it even higher to being around 240 damage to everyone who is clumped up (meaning you could potentially hit the enemy team for 1200 bonus accumulative damage per auto).

I would argue that even with the new overcap synergy, Jinx's best lifesteal options will be Mercuial (if lots of hard CC) > BT > Mercurial > Bork > Death's dance. Once you get as much Attack speed as you are talking about, you start LOSING dps if you try to kite at all because it is nearly impossible to issue out commands fast enough to consistently orb walk without cancelling autos.

ThefrostyvikingJan 19, 20181 votes

Ah you have a fair point, i am just ever pessimistic so i don't ever assume that enemies will do silly stuff like cluster or let me get to use AOE very well........usually in my games i have 1-2 guys diving balls deep to take me down and so i run away kiting x)

But for the time when the team lands some hard CC on the divers you can get some really good DPS off, and botrk makes such a difference when dealing with tanks.

But.....it's also the case that i play Ashe whose Q grants a lot of bonus AD damage and ATS when up, so some differences are natural x)

Sp33d Zer0Jan 19, 20181 votes

You should also remember that rockets buff AD by 10%, so BT actually gives 44 AD with rockets

ThefrostyvikingJan 19, 20181 votes

Yeah, but on the other hand, if dealing with a beefy team won't the passive of botrk deal more damage even if you have less AD?

League tanks today have a lot of health, it's pretty normal to reach like 3-4 k base health and 6-10 with stoneplate.

Sp33d Zer0Jan 19, 20181 votes

While this is true, you are losing out on single target dps vs a big tank.

However, you are gaining significant dps vs non tanks, and siginificant dps if they are stacked up at all with anything else nearby. It's all about trade offs. And like I said, you wind up attacking so fast you have to stand still or you lose dps, thus nullifying the whole point of the build.

ThefrostyvikingJan 20, 20181 votes

mm, but still the potential gain of the times when you are able to stand still and auto is very delicious looking x)

Feels hard to decide after having seen what a kog with lethal tempo can do x)

Sp33d Zer0Jan 20, 20181 votes

True, but since kog builds on hit it more directly works. With Crist it may not be the same

ThefrostyvikingJan 21, 20181 votes

Not entirely the same it won't be, but it will surely be good when dealing with any melee that isn't a high armor+steroid tank that still acts as a frontline, like shyv or Darius.

NaonJan 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Exactly . Rito logic , are dominating, better buff . Meanwhile , , are trash tier, your just gonna leave them to rot or what? Maybe tune down the overpowered , so others can compete with them?

We really don't need buffs on anything. We need to start nerfing dmg because a game shouldn't be decided between the 5-10min mark.

WrÆthJan 18, 20182 votes

Why the fuck do people seem to think Jhin is garbage, like do you ever even watch competetive or high tier LoL?

SujirenJan 18, 20183 votes

He is garbage in current meta in a sense that unless you smash lane you will lose game to any hyper carries mentioned earlier. You really want to play Jhin into that Lulu Tristana ? You better end the game by 20 minutes then, because you will auto lose post 20 minutes. Even Ezreal , struggles vs those champions unless he hard wins the lane, and he has a helping hand from kleptomancy, naturally giving him more gold.

AhristocatsJan 18, 201816 votes

in no dimension cait and draven are weak

LimrickJan 18, 201811 votes

Pretty sure T1 know more about the state of Draven than some rando EUW Diamond player.

AhristocatsJan 18, 201815 votes

like i give a damn

Draven doesn't lack of anything to do his job he snowballs well bursts well stop dashes with E and dominates lane

don't try to powercreep adcs even more, because this won't happen friend

Jet SettJan 18, 20185 votes

The post is saying exactly what you are. They aren't weak they are weak compared to the top performers.

AhristocatsJan 18, 20187 votes

everyone is weak compared to the top performers

go and buff 100 champions that we have right now this will be way easier than nerfing the few overpowered champions

Jet SettJan 18, 20189 votes

I don't understand, that's exactly the point, my point, and yours, but you're still upset? Are you trying to put words in my mouth or do you not understand?

AhristocatsJan 18, 20183 votes

"the post is exactly what you are"

i replied to this part i don't know what you think i am and it doesn't really matter, because i know i'm right

Jet SettJan 18, 20185 votes

"The post is saying exactly what you are" Saying, SAYING. As in you are both SAYING the same thing, unless you actually want Riot to buff 100 champions. Don't be a dick when you don't even fully understand what I'm saying.

Spank the FoxJan 18, 20189 votes

OP didn’t say they’re weak though.

But you’d have to be pretty silly to insinuate Caitlyn is in the same tier as Vayne right now.

saltranJan 18, 20182 votes

Look at his old post, he won a ranked game as Cait so she can't be weak now lul. And she was picked on the Lck so she can't be weak (the fact that she was useles doesn't matter)

ﬂooJan 18, 201810 votes

If you compare Cait to Vayne it's no wonder, cause Vayne is broken atm.. Comparing Cait with other champs, she is doing alright

jacobnipplesJan 19, 20182 votes

I don't think you understood my post. Cait, Draven Jinx etc are FINE as they are, they fit a niche and do their jobs. Yet riot seems to be buffing these champions instead of pushing champs like xayah, twitch, trist and vayne out. this results in even more powercreep.

I play a lot of Draven as he's a champ i love to play for fun, and he hasn't felt this bad for a while. Not because he's bad, but because xayah etc are better. He can't compete with these champions at all and you simply cannot disagree with that.

MizayaJan 18, 201816 votes

The relic shield nerfs and all of that is essentially a nerf to KogMaw Twitch Vayne on top of the nerfs Vayne is already getting.

I don't think the way to nerf ADCs is to gut champion kits to compensate for everything else. Nerf Shiv, reduce turret gold, make the game less snowbally and slower-paced so that we can give ADCs a place in late game, which doesn't exist currently. THEN we can look at individual kits and items.

T4underboltJan 18, 20186 votes

Twitch was a problem for more than one season.

PennsJan 18, 201810 votes

But its adc, we love adcs here at riot :]

Teridax68Jan 18, 20186 votes

I wouldn't go about making claims like "everyone complains about X", because those claims tend to be interpreted literally and torn apart to the detriment of the larger message at hand. With that said, I agree with the larger point, and I think that nerfing exceptionally powerful marksmen would increase the win rates of those who are underperforming: marksmen are perhaps the most isolated class in the game when it comes to balance, because they occupy a position on the map reserved for them, which they occupy on both teams in every game, and which pits one against the other. Effectively, the vast majority of marksmen are only balanced relative to other marksmen in terms of direct win and play rates, so their aggregated balancing tends to be zero-sum within the class, something that cannot be said for any other. With exclusively bot lane marksmen like Jinx, her win rate is low only because the win rate of other marksmen is so high, and buffing her to their level will only lead to more champions suffering indirectly as a result.

Because of this, I think it should be important to not only check the win rates of marksmen (which, in this particular scenario, tend to give off the wrong information), but also check the win rates of marksmen against teams with no marksmen at all. Though data for that currently seems to be lacking due to the extreme rarity of those scenarios (which should itself be worrying), I can safely bet that their win rates in those situations would skyrocket. While there are a lot of factors that could explain that (marksmen are the best objective-takers, and objectives are essential in League), the net result would nonetheless be that marksmen possess power that makes them essential to every team, which is detrimental to diversity. Imposing meaningful tradeoffs to that power, sharing that power with other classes, or otherwise establishing a situation where marksmen are no longer mandatory (but still viable and picked frequently) is a step Riot needs to take if they want to engineer a more diverse and balanceable environment.

saltranJan 18, 20182 votes

Now this is a good comment instead of just circlejerking every day the same at Boards.

jacobnipplesJan 19, 20182 votes

I try to avoid "everyone complains about X" myself, I hate to have used it here. But everybody I know and watch has the same issues. I've never really got involved in circlejerking before this pre-season as I don't like to be the vocal minority that pretends to speak on behalf of the silent majority, but I'm just super frustrated. I've spent hundreds of pounds and hours on this game, and for the first time ever I actually hate the game right now. I'm only playing it because I want to get plat this season. My best friend who has been playing since S2 has also quit the game now. I just felt the need to speak out and this is all I knew how to do I guess.

Really well thought out comment though. Couldn't agree more. Bringing other classes into the Bot lane carry position is a slippery slope though, so I can't expect them to do this for a while (see morde), but It just irritates me they haven't really done much in the mean time.

kargishJan 18, 20185 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmSO2cz2ozQ

Dead Anime DadJan 19, 20183 votes

Jinx gets buffs, somewhere along the lines the current top adcs get some kind of nerf whether direct or to their items. Jinx becomes the new op go to, we complain about her, someone else gets buffs and she gets nerfs, we go full circle and the cycle begins anew. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Jinx HunterJan 18, 20182 votes

No, knock them all down. If you don't then the next one that wasn't OP will be the next OP. Since marksmen are treated specially by riot, they should be nerfed or buffed as a group since Riot insists on only balancing them against each other.

That's the only way to keep the balanced, nerf them as a group; and I don't mean just their items either.

ArakadiaJan 18, 20182 votes

Nerfing an entire class because of a handful of outliers is a shitty idea.

jacobnipplesJan 19, 20181 votes

I'm 50/50 on this - I agree that even if riot avoided powercreeping the class more and nerfs the outliers it probably wouldn't be enough on its own. Their definitely needs to be some item price increases in tandem with the nerfs to bring the class as a whole back in line. Don't agree that the class as a whole needs gutting though, just outliers and price adjustments imo. All we will gt is ADC in 2k18 LUL and thus the cycle continues, them coming back stronger than ever down the line.

PoskeJan 19, 20181 votes

ADC IN 2k17 WAS JUST A FKING MEME

I guess its our fault for Mememing

Because ADC in 2k17 got exactly the opposite meaning soon after

jacobnipplesJan 19, 20181 votes

See it was supposed to be a meme, but there were a lot of very very angry Adc mains that didn’t like playing utility ADCs and the fact that other classes were finally viable in the bot lane. It’s a shame because “ADCs in 2k17 LUL” was probably the best state they’ve been in that I can remember eksdee (IMO)