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Tanks diving turrets is not the issue

jacobnipples··105 votes·3,979 views

I have seen many discussions on Turrets on the boards recently, and I've seen many people suggesting things like making the turrets do %HP damage and/or true damage so that tanks can't dive so easily, and whilst I agree they don't hurt enough I don't think that's the issue at all. Squishies being able to dive turrets is the issue.

Diving is an important part of a tanks job, and especially as a Gangplank player I get dived all the time. I don't feel salty at all if a jungle sejuani comes from behind my tower and her and the riven dive me, I can live with that and I shrug. But when a lee sin or kayn pops over the wall and THEY dive me at full hp under turret, take 5 hits and then make a clean escape at 10 minutes thus taking my tower, I just die a bit inside. If I fuck up or I'm low health whatever, but this happens ALL the time and its not hard.

Towers should provide safety, and they don't.

Also I feel I am not given chance to group as I need to baby sit my squishy turret. A couple of games ago at about 15 minutes in I went to group with my team mid, and we won a 4v5 fight, killing two of them and losing one person and taking the mid turret. However, during that time their 1/4/0 Malzahar had destroyed both of my full health top lane turrets and just about escaped by the time I got to him. If he took the one turret I'd be like fine because its a trade-off but they got the better deal because I needed to group to help my behind team.

One thing I could suggest is that at a start we need laser turrets back. Bases are so easy to siege now its absurd. Another thing I'd suggest is maybe increasing the other towers' rate of fire. I say this because tower agro is really easy to abuse, and if the rate of fire is up (even if the damage has to go down a bit to compensate) then maybe If a kayn for example uses his ult to drop agro it will be sooner before the riven/pantheon etc takes aggro and starts to be punished for diving me.

Sorry if I have repeated myself or explained myself poorly I haven't the time to proof read.

P.S I have no issue with Riven specifically she is just being used as an example.

51 Comments

EkyonKun71 votes

I've suggested this before, but what if towers provided base armor penetration? Not flat, not %, but a tower ignores your BASE armor values (Or a percent of your base armor, perhaps) while not penetrating bonus armor. Tanks get to tank once they have armor, and squishies fear the might of the powerful turret.

Provengreil9 votes

I find this idea intriguing and worthy of an upvote and a comment, even if that comment really only amounts to a nice big this. Riot plz bring it up in meetings.

Votable Jester2 votes

^This

######sorry I had to

ChocolateDor6 votes

I'd go with the %. Ignoring base armor makes it practically undivable by squishies(they should get chance too, although much less than tanks obviously) while full tanks like cho gath/malphite will keep on taking 70 dmg per hit while sitting at 5k hp.

On the other hand ignoring % will make tanks dive less overpowered and rather normal - still being able to dive but not tanking 40 turret hits, while it will still slightly reduce squishies chance of diving.

KuroCaliber1 votes

By the time cho and malphite reach 5k hp, most champs would and should be a bigger threat than turrets.

AlienPrimate2 votes

Or you could just give them flat penetration. Lethality (flat penetration) is only effective against low armor targets. As soon as someone builds item 1029 its effectiveness is reduced considerably.

Silverjust2 votes

this might be a really good idea :)

YokoNomi16 votes

Yorick

I agree that there needs to be a change to the turret system. Though I'd honestly rather see an overhaul rather than just a minor edit. Riot seems to treat the system like a frail pane of glass they'd rather not risk breaking, and for a number of reasons, I can see why. But with the ham fisted approach many players are able to get away with in order to push the game into their favor, the current turret system is laughable at best.

My last Yorick game? I took away 25% of an enemy's turret's hp away with one Q, thanks to the new rune system. This isn't URF. That should not be happening.

jacobnipples15 votes

I just want to see them doing something. It feels like it takes them far too long to fix things. Look at ezreal or malzahar. I know nerfs are coming but Ezreal was easily hotfix worthy yet left to ruin the game for another two weeks. Towers have barely improved if at all (that 10% minions damage change was not at all necessary, the change p much cancelled the tower buff out). Bruisers have been in the gutter for ages now and they say they acknowledge it but have took one meaningful step toward it (new Sterak) and ironically whilst thats helped one issue (weak itemisation) its added to another (their items being super expensive). Same with ADCs, who have seen little to no changes and forced a PTA nerf because they were abusing it when it was a crutch for old Fervor users, without just thinking WHY NOT NERF IT FOR RANGED CHAMPIONS. They're also adding crit scaling to fleet footwork so that's now again being skewed to being adc specfic.

Also alarming that I feel changes during preseason so far have been very few and weak, and we are half way through it. I don't like to rant or circlejerk and try to get on with things, but its just frustrating that I feel nobody is being listened to.

ChocolateDor1 votes

Agree with what you've written I'd just like to add that ap mages are no less dead than bruisers(except those with utility like malzahar's so skilled R or tf/sol's roaming potential to help the roles that actually matter(botlane) in the current meta that has been around since the rise of ardent.

Ravenous Howls2 votes

I do believe there was a post somewhere in the Dev Corner about them looking into changes for turrets but it was non specific what their intentions are.

As a Nasus and Shen Main I do not want to see diving taken out of the game but I agree that these hyper mobile squishy assassins or mages that can dive with little to no consequence is absurd. If you built to tank the turret then you deserve to survive a decent barrage of shots but if you are all damage then there is no reason for you to take 5 shots and still walk away alive...

WardBaronFFS2 votes

Yorick's one job is split pushing and quite frankly without being far ahead he can't do much else.And although its 25% of the towers hp you built around split pushing and tower destruction.It's sorta like being angry at a glass cannon doing damage its their one job let them do it.

YokoNomi1 votes

{quoted}

Yorick's one job is split pushing and quite frankly without being far ahead he can't do much else.And although its 25% of the towers hp you built around split pushing and tower destruction.It's sorta like being angry at a glass cannon doing damage its their one job let them do it.

The biggest difference between Yorick and our more classic tower pushers like Tryndamere and Yi is that in spite of their speed, each hit is fragmented for those two, but not with Yorick. When you combine that into such huge chunks, the effect is too immediate. Imagine being the player at that tower, defending a seemingly healthy tower. Then suddenly, that health is gone that one instance, no warning, nothing. Yorick can tower push, but while I am aware of the meta that Riot is leaning towards, that's just unfair to the enemy team. I felt no joy in destroying their towers, I felt lazy. Nothing rewarding comes from playing against a team that can't fight back, and subsequently ruining what fun that team had as a result, due to how severely lopsided the fight was.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

On the other side though if you catch Yorick out in his split push....he HAS to fight you. Tryndamere can literally just spin away until you leave ESPECIALLY since he opts for Essence Reaver nowadays to be the spinning master.

KuroCaliber1 votes

I'm pretty sure Jax uses Triforce procs on towers.

And no warning? Pretty sure this yorick was using demolish, which gives a full five second warning.

WardBaronFFS1 votes

Yes but tryndamere and yi have better tools for team fighting as a result with more consistent damage.Comparing yi and trynd with yorick is futile considering the fact that a full build trynd can just jump onto adcs and carry the same thing with a full build yi while yorick is more or less a tank team fight and really has no purpose team fighting if behind.You just did the same thing as comparing darius and fiora talking about life steal in melee champs with totally different kits.You took 2 attack speed champs with escapes and compared them to a tank whos best escape is a slow.....

YokoNomi1 votes

{quoted}

Yes but tryndamere and yi have better tools for team fighting as a result with more consistent damage.Comparing yi and trynd with yorick is futile considering the fact that a full build trynd can just jump onto adcs and carry the same thing with a full build yi while yorick is more or less a tank team fight and really has no purpose team fighting if behind.You just did the same thing as comparing darius and fiora talking about life steal in melee champs with totally different kits.You took 2 attack speed champs with escapes and compared them to a tank whos best escape is a slow.....

Unsure of what you're getting at with the argument of "if he's behind". I feel like that'd by default, apply to a series of champions. Plus, when did team fights come into this? It really is becoming a pet peeve of mine, that people don't bother quoting what they're responding to, since I made more than one post. Not only that, but this was awhile back too.

Anyways, the conversation was centered around pushing towers. Towers.

WardBaronFFS1 votes

But you were actively comparing trynd and yi to yorick and if we are talking about pushing towers you have to include escapes, Yorick also only chunks towers at a more then considrable rate ahead or end game demolish isnt that strong and neither is his Q behind.

YokoNomi1 votes

{quoted}

But you were actively comparing trynd and yi to yorick and if we are talking about pushing towers you have to include escapes, Yorick also only chunks towers at a more then considrable rate ahead or end game demolish isnt that strong and neither is his Q behind.

My discussion was aimed at per hit. There's a difference between partial chunks and an actual quarter chunk per single hit, is my argument. Too much in one attack. Literally all I'm saying is the output for that single attack is too high.

WardBaronFFS1 votes

Per hit doesnt matter if you see a yorick with demolish and your tower is half hp gtfo thats all you need to do.Same thing you would do if you see a trynd doing it. Same tower destruction speeds ones just chunkier which should be expected since you dont build attack speed.We've always had tanks that chunk towers look at nasus this isnt a current problem.

Silent Crescendo8 votes

[deleted]

Durzaka8 votes

I disagree.

I think that being able to control the threat of the turret is a very important part of the game, and an important skill to learn and master.

The problem is how LONG that Leona can survive under the tower with few tank items.

If turrets switched to whoever was the biggest threat, tower dives would disappear. End of story. And that would be very bad for the games health.

FutureCreator7 votes

Look at the turrets on Twisted Treeline, it's practicly impossible to dive under them as a squishy (hell even as a tank it's a risk) because of their higher fire rate. If they could leave the current tower HP on Summoner's Rift but just add the Twisted Treeline fire rate I think it would more or less fix the issue.

My Waifu Vanilla7 votes

Would be too hard to last hit. Imagine last hitting under tower as Jhin or Caitlyn if the towers fired faster. They ALREADY attack faster than Jhin/Cait generally. Heaven forbid you are a mid laner with a garbage auto attack animation (Anivia and such) that has absurd wind-up.

A solution to this is to give turrets the "hunter's machete" type buff where the AS increases when they hit a champion.

łł ł ïłï ł łł5 votes

Instead of laser turrets they should use the Twisted Treeline nexus turrets. 😈

The Deckowner4 votes

Towers would feel way better if its attackspeed is higher but dealt less dmg with overall the same dps. Currently it takes an eternity for tower to switch agro, especially when someone goes into invulnerability(which is flooded in recent years of new champions btw) while a shot was travelling, the next shot takes 8 years to come out.

T4underbolt3 votes

More like tanks diving turrets wouldnt be a problem if they didnt take 3/4 of your hp in one rotation at the same time. Thats so convienent to not worry about being killed by turret while assasinating squishies.

Disulfiram3 votes

What if towers could Ground every enemy in range (or at least the target they are focusing)? This way a full tank Sejuani would still be able to tank it, but a Lee Sin wouldn't be able to just dash his way out of an early dive on a full hp champion.

Doctor Dyment2 votes

This is a good idea. Increase turret damage by a small amount per shot, buff their ability to tank damage, and give back Nexus turret lasers. Problem solved. Of course numbers would need to be changed around to ensure that things don't go too far in one direction or another, but any change would be for the better.

xDogMeatx1 votes

im sure my buff is better

Teemo Did 9112 votes

Malphite : are there towers in the game?

Scary Door2 votes

It's not even tanks that are diving turrets though, it's ADCs and mages. Realistically, towers do so little damage and are so weak that they just don't provide any safe haven at all.

Blåbæret1 votes

Just had a level 3 Jhin tank 3 turret shots and still make it out alive.

vinnythetaco1 votes

Ive gotten dove by a fkin janna. I don't even think she had to shield

Alimentateur1 votes

If the Towers would deal scaling True Damage, so for Example when the average lv is 6 it deals 450/sec as with the normal Towers any tank can tank 3 shots @ lv 2

deadlychuck1 votes

The year is 2019, riot has decided to remove turrets to address how they feel too much like a handicap which prevents players from leaving their lane and limits their design space.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Lazer turrents only were base towers i dont see how that helps anything. everything does too much free damage Mages doing magic damage Adcs getting massive ad items and lots of attack speed Adversly Tanks and Fighters lose hp5 which was a big part of their durability and fighters lose access to lifesteal because they are too squishy with 1 defensive item on each end thus even if they get lifesteal they dont have the damage to support the amount of healing they need from lifesteal. and every damage champion has heavy cc whether in the form of heavy slows or roots and/or they have mobility (and some times mobility on their mobilty) and they our run you with just movement speed so through ranged characters being impossible near impossible for melee characters to punish melees fall behind in what they have to give up just to punish ranged characters and even when even they cant reliably catch ranged characters or take damage from them.

only zhule1 votes

I think it would be interesting to see something like "turrets gain bonus range and attack speed after attacking an enemy champion, up to a cap" that way if you can still poke (one and done, or two if you hit between attacks), but champions can't sit under enemy turret, nor can they simply play with the auto aggro by moving JUST out of attack range (which is often still in range for abilities).

FourVsFive1 votes

Could they not make turret base dmg is doubled each time its hit its target after first hit with a cap of 300% dmg increase maybe? So say turret did 100 dmg, next attack do 200 then capping at 300 for example.

Sinlaire2 votes

they already go up 80% and cap at 240% if i remember correctly.

Kuromatsu1 votes

oh you mean how like ekko can turret dive and come out clean... ya.

CooL Ice Tea1 votes

The amount of times i was reading "thanks giving" in this title isn't even funny anymore. Anyone else?

The JigSAW1 votes

Tower buff all around. 4,000 health tertiary, 4,500 second, 5,000 health base. First 5 minutes remains 50% damage reduction, afterwards 30% for tertiary, 40% for secondary, and remains 50% for base and nexus. The only way to stop people from diving that aren't supposed to be able to dive is to use true damage as a max health % when hitting enemy champions, or ya know, give Camille her full 4 second ult even if dead so she can at least trap somebody in the turret. Ziggs' mines stay for seconds, Heim's turrets fire for 4 seconds after he's dead, since her ult doesn't technically do damage unless she's attacking with basics put the damn thing back in as unescapable for 4 seconds dead or alive.

TheOnlyJoe1 votes

I do think tanks are an issue when diving towers, but not in the early game. Early-mid tanks diving are quite alright, but lategame they can just tank tower for half a minute+ and get all kinds of shields to last even longer

I agree with your other points though

Vekkna1 votes

Possible ideas for turrets:

  1. Aggro drop range is 133% of aggro range.

The point here is to make it harder to juggle aggro between two ranged, typically an adc and support.

  1. Breaking the turret's target laser immediately inflicts damage equal to the next turret shot.

Punishes juggling between squishies and rewards tanks who commit to a dive. Punishes cheese divers like Yi, Yasuo, Kayn, Zed who drop aggro with untargetability and leave range before taking a hit.

  1. Turrets deal mixed damage, adaptive between turret base damage and % target current hp.

Punishes tanks who only stack armor or hp and rewards tanks with a balance of hp, MR, and armor.

swagpingu011 votes

that is completely true i got towerdived during the laning phase at least 5 times by a full lethality pantheon with no armor and no HP items without junglers help... but 5 time he killed me without losing too much health even with the tower attacking him this is not ok rito

prestoman1 votes

What if towers gave some sort of armor and magic resist boost sort of like old locket did so that when you are defending you are harder to kill, but towers don't do more damage

Bolwinkel1 votes

The problem is, while damage overall on champions went up, damage and resistances on everything else didn't...

CrackShack1 votes

Remember when this game used to be fun?

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