How to create meaningful counterplay.

DragonTroopBeta··7 votes·943 views

Warwick Ult: 42 seconds Nautilus Ult: 48 seconds Yasuo Ult: 18 seconds Twisted Fate Cards: 6 seconds + selection Morgana Binding: 7 seconds Thresh Hook: 8 seconds

Cleanse: 210 seconds.

If you, Riot, are so obsessed with creating counterplay, why is the one Summoner Spell specifically there, and only there, for creating counterplay to high Crowd Control champions one of the weakest Summoners in the game? If you want to keep ADC's safe while toning down their impact on the mid game, why not allow them to at least stay safe once and a while? Why should Warwick be able to ult me 5 times before I can use Cleanse once? He's going to gank you, and 1/5 of those times do you have a legitimate chance at survival when he isn't followed up. **Cleanse isn't an Olaf ult, you can still chain CC onto the user. **

Reduce Cleanse's cooldown and maybe we will see actually use for champions who rely on reapplying slows like Gangplank, Nunu, Ashe and Sejuani.

Why do you keep Heal and Flash as the only viable defensive Summoner Spells? Why not give us something we can actually use to defend ourselves with when we get knocked up by Cho'Gath or Suppressed by Malzahar? Why should I suffer because Warwick can instantly blink 700 units forward making me completely unable to control my character once every single minute of the game?

You should have to consider the consequences for using your hard CC. If I get TP ganked by Twisted Fate, if he made a good choice of where to use Destiny he should be rewarded for it, yes. That doesn't mean I should be punished because he was in Auto-Attack range with nothing to follow up. By the time Destiny is available again, Cleanse won't even be a factor for another minute and a half. He has plenty of time to set up for a gank again.

TL;DR - The cooldown on Cleanse should be 180 seconds or less. None of this 2 and a half minute bullcrap. If you want to reward aggressive play, go ahead. But do not reward reckless or instinctual play.

12 Comments

Ayane2 votes

Just nerf the champions you listed, and completely remove Warwick's ult. How long does it take to rework him anyways?

Q- Same, less healing, lower mana cost. W - Exact same. E - Same, but lower range. Gain buffs dependent on what you killed - 3/5/8/12/15 AD for Golems 5/10/15/20/25 movespeed for wolves, 2/3/4/5/6% bonus AP for Wraiths, 40/60/85/120/150 Bonus Health for Gromp. R - Warwick runs to the target at incredible speed. Gets stopped if he hits a structure/wall or enemy champion. Deals the same damage, same suppress, no on-hits(but still lifesteal), now also scales with 20% bonus AP.

Icestar11862 votes

That's pretty much a suggestion for a nerf, not a rework. It would just make him even less viable. It weakens his q, makes his e very confusing, and makes his ult a bad version of Vi's.

insaiyanbacca1 votes

yeah thats a nerf and i dont think this guy understands the e because he says same but changes it completely

Fury and Emperor2 votes

Warwick's ult actually has lots of counterplay, not by the target but by everyone else. Interrupting a channel is easy.

For the target, it is not any worse than an Annie stun fireball. (Buying tenacity isn't counterplay, just a counter)

PerishSoftly1 votes

Errr... 2 and half minutes is 150 seconds. I think you mean 3 1/2 or more

Genocide Victim1 votes

Last I checked you couldn't cleanse ww ult because it's a suppression. They should probably make it so you could.

Skia Asteri2 votes

Last I checked you couldn't cleanse ww ult because it's a suppression. They should probably make it so you could.

I have read that it use to cleanse suppression, and it resulted in champions with suppressions being absolutely trash tier.

chumbler1 votes

Last I checked you couldn't cleanse ww ult because it's a suppression. They should probably make it so you could.

I have read that it use to cleanse suppression, and it resulted in champions with suppressions being absolutely trash tier.

Yes, although it never cleansed suppression. Those ults were just normal stuns at the time. Suppression was invented as a special class of cc just for them.

FantasySniper1 votes

I agree.

Although suppression is designed specifically to not be countered by summoner 1 .

You'd also have to worry about Zed's standing, since his ult is affected. (right?)

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

You listed all the cooldown values assuming that the champion has 40% CDR, even on Yasuo who doesn't typically build CDR at all. That really calls your arguments into question due to bias. Aside from this, you don't really seem to understand how CC works, cleanse interacts with it, or that counterplay exists that isn't item or champion dependent (positioning, warding, predicting enemy movements, etc).

Warwick's ultimate is a suppression so cleanse doesn't actually affect it. This applies to Malzahar, Skarner, and Urgot's ultimates as well.

Knockups and knockbacks are not affected by tenacity or cleanse.

Heal and Flash are not the only defensive summoner spells. Exhaust, Ghost, and Barrier are all useful defensive summoner spells.

Ashe and Sejuani would be hit pretty hard by a stronger cleanse because of how important their ultimate stuns are to their kit.

If you are really that hard up for most CC removal, consider buying Quicksilver Sash.

Just, do some research before posting a QQ thread. This is all pretty common knowledge and easily found through playing the game or looking at the wiki.

DragonTroopBeta1 votes

59.7% winrate, 24.4% playrate 79.2% banrate. Pls fix warwick.

Hayaishi1 votes

I always thought cleanse and heal should be merged.

Reduce heal amount so it's like 150-250 at max rank.

It would fill the niche of the summoner spell a squishy carry wants to use to stay safe in teamfights against certain teamcomps (Lissandras, WW, Naut) You know those kind of CCs that you cant avoid no matter what.

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