Was Rengar's Rework a Failure ?

subhuman team XD·Apr 24, 2017·54 votes·5,939 views

if it was a failure write down in the comments why is that in your opinion , if not please tell me why was his rework a success ?

141 Comments

SlythionApr 24, 201739 votes

I think people forget that just because they think a rework was a failure, that doesn't mean it wasn't an improvement.

When I see people saying new Rengar was a failure and they should just revert it, I just don't think they remember the days of old Rengar and just how bullshit it was.

On probably an even more controversial note: I feel the same thing about Fiora

chipndip1Apr 24, 201714 votes

{quoted}

On probably an even more controversial note: I feel the same thing about Fiora

THANK YOU

5000000000000000Apr 24, 20178 votes

Do people actually ask for reverting Fiora? Old Fiora was so much more BS than she is now.

yay nibbersApr 25, 20173 votes

What do you mean? Being untargetable for a century while you do a million damage to everyone was totally fair.

Serika ZeroApr 25, 20173 votes

fizz does the same thing, on less 6 times less CD, and it has a slow attached to it, and he has control on when to end up AND he can use it without having a target

but yehhhhhhhhhhh, lets cry about fiora

SlythionApr 25, 20172 votes

because he doesn't damage everyone in the area for the entire time either, those are two pretty bad comparisons

Serika ZeroApr 25, 20172 votes

actually not quite. Fiora's damage across multiple targets (hitting everyone except the final one getting hit twice) used to net indeed around 2000 damage do to hydra proccing and increasing her AoE damage besides the just old ult normal hits. Now, try to see how much damage would Fizz E do :) if it hit 5 targets

here's the wiki for you: and the hint is to, multiply his E damage by 5, as hitting 5 targets ;) http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Fizz

indeed its a very bad comparison one having much less cooldown and being much more overloaded compared to the other, its like comparing a car with a plane where everyone is fucking fine with the plane, but the car is the one that's toxic, producing to much co2 and killing the environment ..... so, let me just fly on my private jet (#hollywood stars)

SlythionApr 25, 20172 votes

Wait, but you made several drastic assumptions and overlooks to twist that comparison:

Fiora was a point-and-click _guaranteed _2000damage aoe, on-hit effect, untargetable ability

Fizz has a low-cd untargetable ability that, even if he does manage to hit 5 enemies, would never reach 2k damage due to the rational assumption that at least 2 of them have resistances...

Fiora was a guarenteed engage while Fizz's is used mostly as an escape/dodge ability

you can argue that one is more bullshit, but don't twist actual facts and cherry pick to make it comparable to another bullshit ability

yay nibbersApr 25, 20173 votes

On what planet is Fizz's E at all comparable to Fiora's old ultimate?

SlythionApr 25, 20173 votes

welcome to the boards :^)

Wind WhistlerApr 24, 20179 votes

{quoted}

On probably an even more controversial note: I feel the same thing about Fiora

Fuck Fiora. I don't know how they made her even more bullshit, but they did it.

crippler38Apr 24, 201712 votes

You'd prefer her old 'I ult you and the only way you survive is if you're surrounded by teammates but haha i still can beat the snot out of you,' playstyle?

it was either that or she did literally nothing all game.

Serika ZeroApr 25, 20171 votes

way to survive original fiora ult: life steal???????????????? you got 4 seconds to do so don't be below 800-1000 hp if fiora managed to get in 400 range of you????????????? buy a ninja tabi????? automatically drops her damage by 10% zhonias if you are ap?????????? spell shield if you are sivir???????? dodge if you are jax?????????? passive if you are phanteon????????? shield if you are a normal adc (have a support near you in mid to late game lol)????????????

Z StatisticApr 25, 20173 votes

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you never played with or against her back then.

Because if you did, you'd remember that the bullshit came from her ult procing hydra on every strike and being virtually unhittable for the duration of the ult. Literally nothing you listed would counter her ult any more than just buying a cloth or chain armor.

So remember, it wasn't bullshit; it was just about 1000-2000 unavoidable, uninterruptible aoe damage on a champion built to clean up people who are low.

Serika ZeroApr 25, 20171 votes

fiora was my main. Yes, you would have proced hydra with every hit of her ult (btw, hydra procs would affect NEARBY ENEMIES, NOT THE MAIN TARGET, GO TRY IT YOURSELF, YOU DON'T DO MORE DAMAGE WITH THE AUTO ATTACK PRO, THE NEARBY ENEMIES ARE THE ONES TAKING MORE DAMAGE COMPARED TO ZERO OTHERWISE). And because she's my main, I know her ult would usually (if you caught an adc alone) do only about 40-50% of their hp (around 800-900) damage

The reason adc used to die to fiora was:

they were out of position (no where near their team)
they would panic and not attack stuff to life steal
they would, ofc, buy no defensive item (Again, ninja tabi was 10% damage reduction on her auto attacks, and she's an auto attack based champion).
they got comboed down by Fiora. This is what Fiora combo was: Q (500 or 550 range btw), into auto attack, into E (resets auto attack) into auto attack, into R.

The amazing thing is, if you were among your team mates, fiora would've done even less damage with you with her ult because the damage would spread across your team. Also, if you would've played Fiora, you would know that her ult would deal less damage if it hits the same target multiple times. Your enemy also has full control of where you land because the first target you pressed R on would be the place where you will end up.

Fiora also had no ways to block the CC from your team. So, in order for Fiora to ult you, the 400 range ult, she would have had to Q towards you. Either by flanking from behind or over a wall. Sadly, this wasn't necessary because most adc and mages where playing front line and then complain fiora is OP hahahaahahaha Almost every support was able to interrupt her Q during its animation. And she could only do it twice in quick succession (like in the same 0.5 seconds), then she had to wait for a longer CD than today's haha 2 sec cd on Q.

Its also beautiful to see you claim 1000-2000 unavoidable damage, even more "uninterruptible" hahahahaha. Since, as mentioned above, you could've give the "ult" to someone else in your team and avoid a bunch of follow up damage. Locket was also a common build on supports, so, they could've heavily reduce the damage. But yeh, aside from lying about the numbers and calling it more than it was, its also unavoidable hahaha.

However, that would require team work, and counterplay, we can't have that. FIORA IS BROKEN OP, OMG SO OP

hahahahaha the current fiora can counterplay her enemies more and has less counterplay herself. But, you know, keep telling yourself Fiora was OP just because you people play front line carry haha and farm alone at 25+ minutes.

god, this is so much fun. arguing with people that are so uninformed is amusing

SlythionApr 25, 20173 votes

all actual points aside, you're being quite the ass

it's very apparent you care more about being right than educating and coming to a common conclusion, which is a shame

Serika ZeroApr 26, 20171 votes

when you are attacked for your opinion every time you say old fiora wasn't OP and even if you try to explain all the counterPLAY and counterBUILD options that were against her, you stop caring about "common conclusion"

SlythionApr 26, 20172 votes

you were never personally attacked? even your first comment in this chain was rude with the spam of "???? ...+" and several sarcastic "lol"

KeevalroyApr 25, 20172 votes

Errr, more mobility, being able to block literally everything with reflecting potential which can also stun, true damage, vital procs, and healing on her ult for no reason? Oh wait, sorry, she hit the marks, so she gets AoE healing, I see the logic now...wait...

AnidanApr 25, 20173 votes

This is opposed to the Fiora that went 0/11/3 and did nothing of worth that game or went 12/1/6 and was one of the main contributing causes of your loss against her. That doesn't typically happen now, other than the game itself being more snowbally.

Trust me, as someone who played pre-rework Fiora: Her new form is better. A lot better. She's the "allowed to be viable" kind of better. Now, I know what you're thinking "But she's frustrating to play against!" well, cupcake, your favorite characters probably are too unless you're one of those people who jumped on the Boards bandwagon and has decided Sion should be the new face of League design.

KeevalroyApr 25, 20174 votes

As someone who played against pre-rework Fiora, she's almost just as bad if not worse. All the rework did was create new problems in place of old ones, which is a failed rework. Now I won't deny that yes, a lot of it has to do with how snowbally the game has gotten, and she happens to noticeably affected, but the vitals mini-game in combination with that fucking W creates an agonizing lane, especially since her new kit doesn't let her fall behind, where her old one could be abused to prevent snowballing.

The feast or famine playstyle was bad for everyone, not just her opponents, I get it, but when the solution is to give her all of the tools to counteract that while keeping her snowbally kit, and add the ability to block and deflect anything coming at her...holy shit, why??

And some of my favorite characters are indeed frustrating to play against - a couple of them had reworks that made them even worse to play against, and I'm baffled how anyone at Riot thought they were good ideas. And I'm a bandwagoner just because I happen to like the Sion rework? For a full-scale VGU, I still think that's the most successful of them so far, and although it hurts to admit it, Warwick is right up there as well.

AnidanApr 25, 20171 votes

I'm not saying you're a bandwagoner specifically for liking the Sion VGU, however there is an annoying trend with people that don't do anything related to Sion proclaiming him to be the best kind of design in League, when the reality is he has a great kind of design for tanks. People try to take his design philosophies and apply it to roles they shouldn't, and it's most notably the bandwagoners that do it. I'll go ahead and straight-up apologize for that statement in the first place for insinuating you were one, when you didn't say anything that should prompt that.

Now, Fiora's rework is much less problematic because it isn't so feast or famine. That sounds like a minor reason, but it isn't. That's exactly what people have wanted and been wanting for a lot of champions now. A champion that isn't useless when behind, because she has some sort of utility to offer her team; a champion that isn't any more overbearing when they're ahead than others of her kind, a Jax that's ahead is just as annoying as Fiora--especially in a 1v1, for example; and she isn't so overwhelming that she instantly wins certain lanes, the point that every matchup against her is largely a skill match-up comes to mind; and she scales but doesn't scale so hard that she becomes an absolute monster compared to other champions in the late-game.

Her rework is actually fairly important to her, and has given her several traits: notably, she absolutely has to interact with the enemy champion and team. She can be a good split-pusher, after all, her kit and item build generally let her, but in the lane she has to interact or else she has no sustain. This is opposed to old Fiora that had regeneration just for hitting things at all, even though she gained more stacks of regen for hitting heroes--she now has none if she doesn't fight the opposing hero. Now, her kit is annoying to play against, but realistically, as we both have admitted, most champions have kits that are annoying to play against, so this isn't exclusive to Fiora. Her primary thing of frustration is her mini-game of Vitals and her W, right? Well one is her primary defensive tool on a decent cooldown (24 at rank 1, 16 at rank 5) so it's not like she has no period of vulnerability and the vitals is what she has to play around for her own sustain and trade damage just as much as you have to play around it. Without Vitals she's left with her AAs and Lunge, with a couple AAs being augmented by Bladework which itself has a decent cooldown for most of the laning phase (13 at rank 1, 9 at rank 3, 5 at rank 5). The Vitals aren't so bad in that at least you can respond to what she did because it doesn't CC you at all, and if she uses her Riposte then it's down for a substantial period of time to let you capitalize on that.

But there's her ult as well, and some people view that as problematic, and while I might agree, it's still significantly better than having her neutered Juggernaut ult because it lets her provide something to her team besides just damage, which people are starting to want more and more so that if they're behind they're not useless. The problem is in what to give a duelist champion. Damage in the area for killing someone/proccing vitals? You're rewarding them for being ahead by putting them even further ahead. Resistances? That's better if it comes at the beginning of the fight, a la Jax, not toward the end. Damage amplification on that target? Damage amplification has so far proven itself to be a bad thing in League. CC? You don't want to give her kit another hard CC, because her only source of hard CC currently in a punishment already. So what would you give her instead? More damage and lean her back toward old Fiora? A different kind of utility that could break her?

So, I have a question, primarily in the case of the Vitals and ult: what would you replace them with? I'm not asking to sound condescending, I'm legitimately asking what do you think would be better? Because a lot of things, I think, wouldn't work very well with her kit and could easily break her. It's a fine line to walk between a kit that's annoying but overall fine, and a kit that's annoying and utterly broken. Fiora fits into "annoying, but overall fine" in my mind, like several other champions. But! That's my perspective and I want to get yours, and what you think might help her, because getting multiple perspectives is a good thing. Sion, for as well as he is designed, could also be easily broken, so we can't just say that "if changing something could easily break it then that means it's poorly designed" because that simply isn't true.

KeevalroyApr 25, 20177 votes

The vitals should be replaced with an armor-penetrating strike instead of straight damage. That way she can still be useful against tanks while not two shotting squishies, and have less "reliance" on true damage.

The ult I'm not sure of. One idea I had brings old-old Mao ult to mind and wouldn't be satisfying to use. She drops a ring, kinda like the healing one she has now, but gets bonus attack speed and damage against her closest targets prioritizing champions, and the other is way too close to Jax ult, so I'm not sure what to do there.

I still feel the W needs to change though. Instead of blocking everything, let it stun on contact and be able to proc the new vital passive, and thats where the true damage can proc instead of her passive. Because of the AS boost on her E in combination with her Q, and speedup on passive procs this could be problematic, and god forbid she would have red buff, so I'd like to see a reduction in speed with a higher Q cooldown.

Just spitballing here so forgive me if something doesn't make sense - it's 3:15 and I'm pretty tired.

48983507DEL1Apr 25, 20174 votes

It was a definite failure on the grounds of making him easier to balance, fun to play against, and have a healthy kill-combo rotation.

It also failed to preserve the one thing that was always amazing about the champion: how fun he is to play.

All they really did was make it easier to play against him. Note that I say easier, not more fun.

The old Rengar had serious problems, but at least it was fun for the person playing him. Now, nobody is enjoying him whatsoever, except for Dekar173.

NewGuy101Apr 25, 20175 votes

But before I could play AP Rengar and yell at people to death really easily.

Plz unrework.

BlåbæretApr 25, 20171 votes

Except that nothing changed with his rework and made him even more overpowered for a good while.

SlythionApr 25, 20174 votes

his over-powered stage was due to lethality, not his rework

don't confuse the two just because they happened around the same time, lord knows how much shit that was when "Dynamic Queue" and the new Champ Select were implemented at the same time

save for his cleanse and some number tunings of course, as comes with most reworks

Giörno GiovannaApr 26, 20172 votes

I believe you're mistaken. Rengar was top tier since PBE. As soon as the rework came out on love he was practically a permaban because of how string his bruiser build was.

RengoooApr 26, 20173 votes

So far from the truth... Rengar was in an overpowered state becasue his numbers were through the roof and he had a whole lot more tools to play with (and abuse, like cleanse), these issues were only compounded by lethality.

SlythionApr 26, 20171 votes

even by your explanation, his numbers where what made him strong, not his kit itself

the rework needed only a number balancing to fix, as we had found out.

RengoooApr 26, 20173 votes

Yes his numbers were way over the top, not denying that.

But it was/is also due to the way is abilities now work, which is why he needs to be kept so low and so nerfed, as we can see with his current state. His abilities are so abusable by pro teams that in order to be balanced for their standard of play, he needs to be verging on a troll pick for anything below.. think; Azir, Kalista etc. His ult giving long periods of zoning control seems to be half of it, that and his viability as a bruiser due to his new kit (Bone tooth, Q and W changes).

Does this no represent op/broken abilities?? Of course you can argue that at the end of the day it comes down to numbers, because that is essentially all the game is made up of... but think of it this way. For Rengar to currently be in a "balanced spot", his numbers need to be absurdly low (i.e. 50 damage q level 1), is this not evidence enough that the issue behind it all is the way his kit works?

RengoooApr 26, 20172 votes

Thing is, new Rengar vs old Rengar.. there really isn't much difference from a balance perspective, they are both equally broken, but everyone prefers the old so why not just revert it until they are ready to rework him again. Which, by the way wont be for a long time.

Old Rengar's serious issues could be fixed with a few minor changes, not perfect, but manageable until a rework.

SlythionApr 26, 20172 votes

I have no idea why people would prefer the old, Old Rengar's playstyle was significantly more toxic than the current one. He would consistently delete any squishy on the map before he landed on his ult thanks to auto -> q -> hydra -> auto combo that decent rengars could pull off. He could literally 100-0 you before you could react, with even less warning then what his current ult gives you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOGDFOeuVlM

Keep in mind that these clips are made in a time where thunderlords doesn't exist and the jungle gave significantly less xp and gold.

Old vs New Rengar may be of similar power levels, but new Rengar does have counterplay in a way that makes him easier to balance. Old Rengar was either useless or able to do what that clips depicts, with very little room to be inbetween.

Teridax68Apr 24, 201733 votes

I think the goal of the Rengar rework was to substantially increase his counterplay and decrease his binariness, or at least should have been. Despite some minor progress, New Rengar is still extremely binary and non-interactive, and the addition of more utility has made him more frustrating to deal with in some specific cases. He can still kill people from stealth in under a second, and he still tends to either snowball out of control of fall hopelessly behind, so in that respect, his rework has failed. I think he will eventually need another, more drastic rework in the future, one that should definitively take out his upfront burst and replace it with a healthy kill pattern.

subhuman team XDApr 24, 20175 votes

Agree , the least they could do right now is do a revert or a partial revert say his Q and passive maybe at least until they figure out how the gameplay update or maybe even a full vgu should be , i just hope they do something about him because he feels underwhelming and just not satisfying to play at all , hopefuly hes not get forgotten like azir

Teridax68Apr 24, 20174 votes

Rengar's bonus AD is a pure product of Riot's decision to avoid tanky builds on damage champions by increasing their dependence on item scaling. In most cases (not Fizz though), it's succeeded, but has also had the consequence of making those champions more binary, since they fall even more behind if they don't get the damage items they need. Effectively, Riot has put themselves between a rock and a hard place, where their assassins are doomed to be either too binary, or too prone to go tanky and end up severely unhealthy. This is an issue I thought would/should have been solved with the Tank Update, but that doesn't seem to be the case, and is something that's going to have to be addressed eventually if we are to avoid more Rengars/Fizzes/Yasuos.

Voluug13Apr 25, 20172 votes

To be honest, binary assassins are the lesser evil compared to tankassassins, because binary assassins allow an actual skill input from the oponents.

I prefer an assassin with high risk high reward that an assassin with low risk high reward.

Teridax68Apr 25, 20171 votes

That's true, it's better to have an overly snowbally champion that does their job, rather than one that can successfully negate their own weaknesses with too few tradeoffs, but the very fact that we have to choose the lesser of two evils, instead of being able to have those kits in an ideal state (and this is after the Assassin Update, by the way, which was meant to bring the class to modern standards of design), is not right. In the meantime, it's better to play safe and give assassins low bases and high scalings, but we need to work towards a system where assassins can have enough stability to never fall ahead or behind too hard, without them ever benefiting seriously from tanky builds.

Voluug13Apr 25, 20177 votes

The real question is whatis the ideal state of an assassin?

Because low risk hig reward, which is what ''no assassin falls behind'' actually is. Either you give assassins the tools to assassinate, or they have to give up massive damage/mobility for things to do when behind.

Because safe assassins that scale no matter what even if they play like shit was literally the alpha version of tankassassins. Zed and Yasuo are 2 assassins that needed massive nerfs (and they are still oppressive to fight againsts with a mayority of the midlane roster) to not completly dominate laning AND teamfighting/skirmishes.

The entire concept of the league assassin runs though feast or famine and playing smart instead of getting support levels of no gold scaling.

The real reason why tankassassin builds work is because Riot have assassins everything but tankiness/sustain (high scalings, high base damages, strong itemization, high mobility, strong survivability, etc), which is easily fixed with itemization, which is what gave us tankassassins.

HawkefireApr 25, 20175 votes

Honestly I think the whole bonus ad thing is rather flawed, because it also means that he gets more ad from items period. So I just end up building hybrid defense items for the extra ad, which coupled with my bonetooth becomes a very respectable amount of ad, and as a plus I'll have fairly respectable defenses to boot. Couple that with the nature of his w, and you end up with something that is extremely hard to counter.

AzureeeApr 24, 201710 votes

Leblanc Rengar Fizz were the failures off the assassin rework

48983507DEL1Apr 25, 20172 votes

Katarina is still bullshit, but she feels and looks so much more like the fantasy that she's made out to be. Her skillcap is also significantly raised.

chipndip1Apr 24, 20179 votes

It's a give and take. They FINALLY made his ult and assassination rotation more fair, but now he lends himself to tank builds when he's strong. I think his issue is that he doesn't have assassin mobility for exiting combat, so he hits like one but builds like a diver, a class that also primarily excels at jumping in and kinda struggles to get out.

SohleksApr 25, 20174 votes

You are correct.

I think "kit/design" wise the direction was rationale looking at this big muscular hunter almost warrior cat that he fills a space that isn't straight assassin... So it almost makes sense he should have to choose fights correctly and we don't want him to instagib people... (but let's be honest that is the kind of champion Rengar mains want...)

I think the problem is definitely tuning and I think his new trophy AD passive making him a more feast or famine character in a game that is already naturally like that lead to these tuning problems. It wasn't as pronounceable as a problem when the perks were little utilities here and there while very good didn't make tuning his numbers more difficult.

They made him a character that is competitive in the high end but takes some (i don't want to say skill but it's the simplest term) skill to play. In that they succeeded perhaps too well. Except it's done probably because the benefit of getting trophy perks is too strong and the experience of not having them is shitty. Result is a champion not satisfying to main..?

The itemization front doesn't help. What with Cleaver and Tabis being good for him and against him. Game in general doesn't offer enough trade off to the bruiser items they're more necessary facts of life for melee rather than choices.

RaiyzaApr 24, 20177 votes

They added some counterplay to his ult. Now he can only leap at the enemy in front so stand behind your tank and you're good, but he is still the #1 pick off champ. Plus his Q damage is a bit ridiculous.

I wouldn't say its a failure, but they went in the right direction.

Legacy HydralphaApr 24, 20173 votes

Overall, I'd say it's a success asides from his passive. The old bonetooth necklace bonus were much more interesting that the bonus ad that broke him when he was reworked.

PROJECT KatarìnaApr 25, 20173 votes

change the passive to something other than straight damage and ill say its a good rework otherwise ill just sit here being salty

48983507DEL1Apr 25, 20173 votes

It was a definite failure on the grounds of making him easier to balance, fun to play against, and have a healthy kill-combo rotation.

It also failed to preserve the one thing that was always amazing about the champion: how fun he is to play.

All they really did was make it easier to play against him. Note that I say easier, not more fun.

The old Rengar had serious problems, but at least it was fun for the person playing him. Now, nobody is enjoying him whatsoever, except for Dekar173.

101100111000Apr 26, 20173 votes

If the goal of the Rengar rework was to make a Stealth-based assassin not brutalize squishies in 0.5 seconds, then it effectively failed, because he was doing that right out the gate anyway. Only when they gutted him to the point of not being able to actually assassinate effectively without snowballing did he actually seem "reasonable", which they could've done to the old Rengar anyway.

Rengar's new passive is an improvement in fundamental design; it rewards Rengar for hunting down the ENTIRE team, not just killing the boosted top laner or Sona 15 times in a row. The issue is that the passive became an exponentially increasing ball of stats, instead of the old rewards which provided him with useful tools and bonuses to his abilities to greater enable his ability to execute his assassination, rather than simply make the assassination that much more damage heavy (sight range, increased leap range, movement speed). Considering the change they initially made for his W, it made Rengar impossible to deal with damage for damage in any way and let him completely dominate the game by being an exceedingly heavy ball of stats.

Not to mention CC immunity on his base W made him also impossible to CC, so he was literally an unstoppable ball of stats.

Once the CC immunity was removed, the rework's design became laughably gimpy because it hinged on the function of his CC immunity to allow him to simply dump damage uninterrupted. Rengar's damage output is actually laughably low and dps-oriented outside of his ult crit, and if he can't get ahead in the early-mid game, he becomes a liability in the form of a bruiser. It's not like Kha'Zix or Katarina, who keeps their assassination potential even if they don't get kills early/mid. Rengar HAS to get kills to function now, something that other assassins don't necessarily suffer as a drawback.

I honestly prefer old Rengar. Just give him the new ultimate, and he becomes insanely easy to deal with while not losing his assassination potential.