Why do two types of infinite scaling Champions exist?

Ronin Tamos·May 12, 2016·21 votes·6,554 views

So we have

Two of them have weak earlys and good late games, while Kindred and Sion are more balanced about their early game. Cant Talk about tresh and Bard since they are support and dunno if they really have spikes with their stacking.

Question as seen above is, why have strong early game Champions with infinite scalings even tough it creates in some cases no real feel of power (Sion),where stacking health does nothing to you in terms of dmg or usefulness of your passive, or creates a champion that has constant nerfs coming due to always being relevant (Kindred)

Why not adjust both their scalings to make them real late game Champions?

26 Comments

Unfortunate GameMay 12, 201619 votes

Because thats what makes every champion different/unique in their own way.

Some champions are amazing early, and scale "OK" late. Nidalee Kindred Leblanc Kalista LeeSin , etc. Some champions are "OK" early, and scale amazingly late. Gangplank Vayne Nasus , etc.

Point is, some champs are meant to be early so you dominate everything, take control of the game, and end early. A lot of these champ designs aren't random. The riot balance team understand this and do this on purpose.

IMO, champions you use should be different throughout every elo you play in.

The lower the elo the more late game vs the higher elo the more early game.

Just an observation.

Teridax68May 12, 201616 votes

Infinite stacking isn't always meant to satisfy a late-game fantasy, as you yourself have pointed out. Although stacks can be infinite, match durations aren't, which is why those passives are balanced around an estimated average match length, and so don't necessarily exist to make a champion strongest during the late game, even though it always gives them more late-game strength.

To answer your question, there are two cases where infinite scalings make sense on champions who aren't meant to be late-game gods:

In the case of Sion and Kindred, they exist to prevent them from falling off too hard. Both have kits that are naturally very strong early on, and would significantly drop if they didn't have some sort of scaling mechanic.
Sion's health stacking means he can afford to survive stages of the game where most champions get to outrange or outmaneuver him. Perhaps it's not as big a feeling as it should be to stack health with him, but it's a part of his old kit that players found iconic, and does play a part in boosting the effectiveness of his W shield and his passive, the latter of which unfortunately doesn't feel good in most situations and falls off even further later in the game.
Kindred's on-hit damage lets their duel-centric power translate better to teamfights, where they have an easier time picking off front liners. Their recent problems mostly come from their early dueling power, which was far too good and let Lamb kite melee opponents with near-impunity, and late-game their power actually tends to dip pretty significantly relative to most other marksmen.
In the case of Thresh and Bard, their infinite scaling lets them buy dedicated support items, which are notorious for offering little in the way of meaningful personal power, and still be able to have their abilities become stronger as games progress. They're not meant to scale especially hard (Thresh actually kind of falls off), but are there so that they at least get the feeling of scaling as the game goes on.
Thresh was designed at a time when support kits didn't really scale at all, and stats like AP, health or resistances were often too expensive to buy reliably in large amounts, so his AP + armor scaling passive let him sidestep that.
Bard is a champion with just one damaging active, and so needed another scaling source of damage to avoid turning into Zilean, and ramping up far too hard in lane before falling off equally hard later on. He was also designed as a roaming support from the get-go and needed a reason to always engage in his chime-collecting minigame, so infinitely scaling power on his innate was the answer (not that Bard players are expected to hit the 150 chime mark in most games, let alone go beyond it for more damage).

Baron of BreadMay 12, 20161 votes

I disagree with your assessment of Sion's use for health stacking. It is currently more of a way of punishing Sion if he does poorly early since his health base values/scaling are abysmal so he needs to stack up to actually be tanky. For old Sion the stacking enabled him to be a late game monster, but now it is mostly used as a limiter on his effectiveness.

ImmortalBloodCYMay 12, 20163 votes

Bard's Passive is really strong if farmed.

AreMay 12, 20162 votes

He also only has one damage ability, so he gets the extra infinite scaling damage to make up for it. You hardly go above 120 chimes in a game anyways. (After 150 chimes, every subsequent 5 chimes is just damage)

ImmortalBloodCYMay 13, 20161 votes

True

ShonjlMay 12, 20162 votes

The bulk of your post seems to mainly be about Sion. The problem with Sion is he is mostly garbage for one major reason.

He is a CC tank which needs CC to even perform his own CC.

Sion is usually a joke to face since he needs help to get his CC off since on his own its easy to dodge it all. He has a predictable slow that has range but such a small hitbox that its so easy to sidestep even unintentionally. His Knockup is slow as well as so telegraphed even before the red lines appear, and his ult is so hard to control that its easy to sidestep in any situation besides him point blanking you with it.

What does that leave you with? A giant punching bag that can mostly be ignored, at least Mundo, which is similar in basically being a giant punching bag, kinda forces you to focus him due to near invincibility and if you build him right, he hits extremely hard and can't be ignored(I've had builds where I still get 4-5k hp but hit 600+ E empowered autos, kinda can't ignore that xD)

Issue with Sion is its either he is balls garbage or extremely broken. At least the other examples you mentioned can be worked around. (Nasus and Viegar can be harrassed or shut down early and near useless unless the game draws long enough, Bard and Thresh are supports so their passives don't even really matter. Kindred is similar to Nasus and Viegar but she has power throughout the entire game)

BluePolarizerMay 12, 20161 votes

Not sure if Kindred really can be a late game champ. Her early game is either going to be trash or amazing since she is the squishiest jungler in the game with the lowest base AD next to Thresh. The jungle doesn't offer enough gold for her to build traditional ADC, and the marked camps spawn in the enemy jungle, forcing her to either be absolutely useless if she has a weak early game, or oppressive if she has even a tiny chance of getting the marked camps.

charcharmunroMay 12, 20161 votes

Kindred has a certain inevitability going. IF Kindred can get a lot of stacks, they're able to shred basically anything.

ShonjlMay 12, 20161 votes

She is no different than Vayne is why, no matter how much you hold one down, if the game last long enough, they will be a force to be reckoned with. At least in Vayne's case you can end early while she is still fairly weak if she was kept down during laning.

Kindred basically has the same benefits as Vayne, since no matter what she will eventually get her maxed passive, either from kills or scuttles. But unlike Vayne, she has a more spammable dash which 2nds as damage, %damage passive, %max health damage wolf, and has a fairly powerful built in sustain, all the while having a fairly gamechanging ult. And people complain about Vayne's %maxtrue damage lol.

Kindred doesn't really have a weak point if the player knows what they are doing. At least Vayne no matter how good of a player they are, if they don't get ahead they won't be a threat until the game is probably over already. Kindred is already a threat from the start, and will remain such.

Sire HippingtonMay 12, 20161 votes

As others pointed out, infinite scaleing doesn't have to mean great lategame(though it usually does mean great hyper lategame. meaning those 60+min games, which are usually very rare and outside of any statistics, champion.gg for example stops at 40+min). On kindret, thresh, sion, bard and even to some extend nasus, it's mostly to balance their natural strong earlygame kit's out so they can stay somewhat relevant lategame without beeing overbearing early on. If they just would have higher scaleings instead, that usually would lead to hard snowballing. With those stacking mechanics, a certain gameplay can be introduced and their scaleing can be gated more carefully. Nasus for example would be a beast in lane if he didn't have to use Q for farm, he could just max E for powerfull trades and waveclear and use the Q aa-reset for trades while his wither makes it hard to retaliate. His kit is incredible strong for 1v1s, though rather lacking in teamfights. That's why alot of his damage is gated by stacking, it prevents him from really abuseing his kit in the early lane and later on gives enough power to be decent in teamfights even if his kit doesn't work to well here, simply cause his damage to tankiness ratio gets big enough. On the flipside, he becomes a terrifying splitpusher later on with all that power on a strong 1v1 kit, especially since his Q decimates towers very quickly.

Onkel MalteMay 12, 20161 votes

Kindred fall off in the late game so hard where (as a infinte scaling personifaction of death itself) they actually should succeed more.

There kit is fine as it is but doesn't fit the identity so much as their strength just balances in the late game but doesn't have any spikes.

ZT XperimentorMay 12, 20161 votes

I've ran a couple customs with thresh to see if his passive spikes; and it doesn't as far as I know, I collected ~515 souls and his stats flatly followed suit. I concur that the infinite scaling champions should be set up as late game powerhouses.

KetiMay 12, 20161 votes

kindred isn't really great early anymore, they're more strong midgame tbh.

YaskamasandwichMay 12, 20161 votes

Late game isn't determined by infinite scaling, it's determined by reliability of damage output, peeling, and utility. You say Nasus is late game but that isn't true since season 3-4. All he can do late game is split push and that is not as good as team fighting late game since a 5 man team can shred a 4 man team late game in a blink of an eye under the fountain. If Nasus does team fight at any point of the game he gets kited and exploded. The only late game infinite stacker you have there is Viegar because of his aoe utility stun, massive damage, and a point and click ult to nullify a squishy or a mage or both.

Sion is a CC punching bag that requires CC help to land his CC. Thresh and Bard are support made to make plays, not end them. Kindred drops late game because of her auto attack range being dangerously short. What good is an aoe prevent death if being stunned near the front line for 1 second is death for nearly everyone, including a tank, come late game?

Late game is also determing by items too. No other type of items synchronize as good as ad items. Every ad item boosts a marksman damage output by multiple instead of additive. Offensive items are multiplied and defensive items are additive. This is to prevent games for going on forever.

Other reason some marksman are late gods are because of their kits:

Vayne has unpreventable damage if landed right and peeled. Jinx has long range safe and extremely damaging aoe rockets that crit on top of that. Tristana has supreme self peel and long auto attack range, combined is great reliable damage. Kog'maw is a long range machine gun that requires the right group to peel for just a moment. Jhin has long range massive damage between his auto attacks that speed boost him and his ult. Sivir is considered late game all just due to her ult and wave clearing. Ezreal because of being blue on top of his kiting capabilities with poke.

So there you have it, infinite scaling doesn't determine late game.

Edit: Mobility on top of a good kit makes or breaks late game as well.

DealthMay 13, 20161 votes

I agree with everything you said except about tank items not being multiplicative. Tank items ARE multiplicative. Armor increases the value of health.

YaskamasandwichMay 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I agree with everything you said except about tank items not being multiplicative. Tank items ARE multiplicative. Armor increases the value of health.

That may be true, doesn't feel like it though or could be me. Or might be the fact that AD Items and AD champions really counter defensive items. Omen + Frozen Heart stacking are a far cry from old it was op though if I recall correctly, Thornmail was nerfed for a good reason, Sunfire was nerfed back then for a good reason because just look at Sunfire as op now. AD items also seem to have the advantage of being balance easier, if a defensive item is op everyone abuses it. Deadman's Plate, Sterak's Gage, Sunfire, Iceborn Gauntlet (Looking at you Ez, and Ekko). The only AD item that I can think of off the top of my head that usually blows out of proportion is Runaan's Hurricane. Speaking of balancing AD Items easier, can't stack Sterak's Gage and Maw of Malmortius anymore. Health + MR items have an easier time vs magic damage than Health + Armor vs AD.

AFK PushMay 13, 20161 votes

My problem with Nasus is that he really isn't that much of a late game champ. The moment he hits 6 he can all in a decent amount of champs if he has been managing to get a decent amount of q farm. Once he gets his ult around 150-200 stacks and item 3078 he starts to wreck shit. He does the most damage and has the most impact around mid game, and by the time late game happens if the enemy team isn't terribly behind, then they will have the tankiness to outlive, the damage dealers should have the damage to chunk him enough since he isn't an actual tank. Not to mention his teamfight is kind of ass.

MealReadytoEatMay 13, 20161 votes

The thing with nasus is his damage is quantified - once you have 300 or so stacks, 2 q's kills a squishy, but you'll never getting enough stacks to reach the point 1 q does.

AFK PushMay 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The thing with nasus is his damage is quantified - once you have 300 or so stacks, 2 q's kills a squishy, but you'll never getting enough stacks to reach the point 1 q does.

Once you have 200-300 stacks that's when you really start splitpushing or roaming, otherwise you become useless. My point about Nasus becoming useless at a certain point is that he is really powerful at about 200 stacks and trinity, and if he doesn't utilize it then he becmoes meh. This is especially true late game, if most people are almost full build when true late game start to show on ADC's and other carries, full tanks, and utility champs which can make carries lives easier and make it so that Nasus can't make it to them.

MealReadytoEatMay 13, 20161 votes

Right, I'm saying that's what makes him mid game - getting more stacks past 200-300 doesn't really make a difference in your combat effectiveness because doing 90% of someone's hp twice isn't any better than doing 55% of their hp twice, but they'll get more and more effective against you.

AFK PushMay 13, 20161 votes

Yeah, and if he can't close that game by putting enough pressure splitpushing bot or top, then his usefulness goes down in the dumps. Cause his teamfight sucks balls, better than some but worse than most.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 13, 20161 votes

simply

for Sion: Health stacking isn't as useful as it sounds. if the adc or damage dealers have damage and you have tankiness. Y OU CAN'T KILL THEM. but they can kill you because it might take a little longer but they can kill you regardless. defense has diminishing returns while offense is additive or even more considering items like infinity edge.

Kindred

well this one is simpler the longer the game gets the harder it is to get stacks because of the initial 6 stacks. and because there is a time on each mark spawn it takes a while to get a few of them and its basically a game of luck and the other team has control over it so does RNG but you don't other than trying. and kindred kit doesnt scale well late game because adc itemization around crit is broken.

they dont just infinitely scale every stat they have specific abilities that work with them and depending on game length they don't work as well at all stages.

QuephaMay 13, 20161 votes

Sion's kit just works better in the early game, there's no way around it. His hp scaling is more of a holdover from the old kit because it is kindof interesting and iconic for him.

It is something that helps slow down his falloff rate if he ends up being forced to farm, which does have strategic implications even if it might create some confusion among players who see infinite hp scaling and think "I'm supposed to farm forever with this guy"

The DeckownerMay 13, 20161 votes

sion's hp stacking is just a icing on the cake, meanwhile kindred stack is actually visible powers and much greater compare to sion's.

TysminMay 13, 20161 votes

don't know about thresh but can only assume he scales into late game with his passive but bard is actually strongest mid to early game and it is really his best feature.