I want to ask. To all the people who said he was shit after the rework do you think he would have still been shit if he was never buffed and you just took the time to re-learn him?
Honest question.
LankPants8 votesTo all the people who said he was shit after the rework do you think he would have still been shit if he was never buffed and you just took the time to re-learn him?
Yes. Zac's buffs were absurd. Have you actually looked at what they were?
7.9 hotfix Q
E
7.10 Q
E
R
Zac needed buffs, no question. Riot went completely overboard though.
Cowseed2 votesCan you tell me in what aspects did he need buffs?
LankPants4 votesHe needed the HP ratio added to his Q, but the base damage nerfs he got alongside this being added weren't severe enough. He also did need the knockup change on E, but his R channel time also needed to be increased by more than 0.1 seconds.
The changes were in the right direction but the buffs were too large and the compensation nerfs too little.
Cowseed1 votesWhy did you think he needed damage, though? He already had a generous amout of what tanks should have - CC and peel. Also, could you not just tell me that he needed them. Could you tell me -why- he needed them?
LankPants3 votesFor his Q, there were cases where a Q AA was doing less damage than a standard AA and using Q hindered jungle clear speed. His Q damage doesn't add to his AA damage, it replaces it. At 50 damage your Q would often deal less damage than the standard AA as early as level 5. It was just in a horrible place, no spell should ever cost you damage in the same way Zac's Q did, if it was a conscious choice like Aatrox's W the sure, but it was often just losing you damage for very low reward when used.
His E just wasn't giving the reward it should for a spell that is both channelled and telegraphed. At a 0.5 second knockup it was giving about the same reward as Sejuani's Q, a spell that has no channel, is less telegraphed and can be comboed with flash. That's before mentioning Zac lacked reliable followup to his E since it didn't hold people in place long enough for him to Q or channel his R. At current his E probably makes his R too reliable but I feel it's made his Q reasonable.
Cowseed1 votesThe current 0.1 seconds for a perfect E-Q combo may be just a bit too reliable. Spoke to another guy about it above or below. I'm not too sure what should be hit between the knock up for the full cast E or the charge time for the ult.
It the E makes his ganks super-saiyan because from some distances you just can see Zac coming like behind certain spots at walls. The channel time being raised might make the ult useless outside of a full cast E but even then you still do have other CC champs to take into consideration that can potentially compensate.
Don't really know how much it would hurt him to raise his ult channel again by 0.1~0.2 seconds though.
LankPants2 votesThe current 0.1 seconds for a perfect E-Q combo may be just a bit too reliable. Spoke to another guy about it above or below. I'm not too sure what should be hit between the knock up for the full cast E or the charge time for the ult.
I'd agree that the charge time on R needs to go up. IMO it should go up to 1.25 seconds and there should be a 0.25 second delay between landing off E and being able to channel ult so you give Zac some time to reposition for his R as well as more escape time and rather than E>R always being correct there should be times where E>Q>R are better.
Ralanr3 votesEh, probably not. Surprised he hasn't been nerfed yet to be honest.
Don't think he needed a health ratio on his Q.
PeepingPeafowl3 votesHealth ratio on Q or something like it was absolutely needed for Zac, at mid game your auto attacks would do more damage than a Q, it was dumb.
Ralanr2 votesAh. I remember that now.
Cowseed2 votesIn my honest opinion Zac didn't need damage given his abundance of displacement/knock-up abilities. In a teamfight that damage isn't really necessary and he already has the potential to set up some very flashy and strong picks/wombos.
Teridax681 votesI agree, at this point Zac is already defined enough by exceptional mobility, CC and durability that damage on top feels like overkill, particularly since several of the other tank reworks made the affected champions greater damage threats, e.g. Galio, Sejuani, Maokai (though technically only when he briefly turned into an AP support :P). More generally, I feel like tanks would likely be better off having their damage moved into their autoattacks and away from their abilities in most cases, as it would prevent them from adding too much damage of their own to CC-heavy combos, while still allowing them to last hit, trade and clear the jungle when needed.
Big Lincoln1 votessejuani is not a damage threat, she is one of the lowest damage tanks in the game now
Teridax681 votesI don't fully agree, as she's still capable of large amounts of single-target burst in spite of the nerfs she received post-rework. She might deal less AoE damage due to how focused on single targets she is now, but as a tank she has several effects in her kit that serve primarily to deal damage.
PeepingPeafowl1 votesI think you may be forgetting that Zac has a jungle to clear.
Cowseed1 votesYou can use bonus damage to minions and monsters for the same effect without impacting ganking power.
Trestani3 votesthey made him impossible to balance with his new ult. They need to revert it, and turn him into a bit more of a diver instead of a full tank, like hecarim or vi.
Darkdemon6532 votesVery much so and without question
There wasn't anything to relearn.
Cowseed1 votesSo besides the completely different ult and what was it, Q I think, you never once thought that a champion with as much displacement as the new Zac didn't even need damage to be relevent?
Where not even talking about regular CC here. Merc treads helps very little against displacement CC. Can't be cleans and Zac could potentially be the new Azir. There is little doubt in mind that the overwelming stats his kit has now is overshadowing just how impactful the kit itself is.
Durzaka1 votesYou do know that the rework for Zac actually removed roughly 1/2 of his damage because his ult doesnt have 3 hits to it anymore, right?
The reworked Zac did LESS damage than pre-rework Zac.
Cowseed1 votesThe rework removed damage but gave him 2 highly disruptive abilities. One that can drag the enemy into your team and then another that if used correctly can drag two of your enemies where you want them, distrup channels etc.
I think the trade off for the damage is kinda worth it because CC on a tank is more reliable than damage because initially tanks needed their team to do damage. While the tank reduced the enemy damage by removing their ability to take action and damage your team's damage dealers. The new abilities actually help alot more than the old Zacs abilites so the kit change in itself was a direct and great buff, I would say. So he was more than compensated for the damage. The only thing that would really suffer with no compensation is his clear though.
I think maybe just buffing his damage vs minions for his E and W would have sufficed.
PeepingPeafowl2 votesNot only would he still have been bad, he would have been garbage to play without the quality of life buffs.
Cowseed2 votesIn what way was he bad? I'm asking this sincerely because as I remember Zac wasn't even out for a full 24 hours before everyone started dismissing him as garbage.
LankPants4 votesHe dropped to a 35% winrate or something dumb like that. It's not like he's hard to play either. He was just released absurdly undertuned.
Sire Hippington2 voteshis damage was to low for decent clear times or trades in lane, and thx to the low cc time on E he was just very unreliable, especially the ult. The buffs to the Q damage were certainly needed, he needs some clearspeed or tradeingpower to be relevant outside of support. The CC buff on E however allowed him to now reliably get off his Q and/r ult as followup which makes his ganks devastateing and his engage rather deadly.
Overall, i think his new kit is just way to hard to balance, it either has his Q+R unreliable, which feels bad, or it's reliable and broken because paireing such powerfull cc with his engagerange is just insane, or his numbers are so low that he ends as a sup and probably even struggles as support outside of maybe competetive as the lack of numbers would cuase the 2v2 to loose despite good cc. I really don't see what was wrong with the old kit, it was fun to use, strong enough yet balanceable...
Durzaka2 votesZac has been my favorite champion in the entire game since the day he was announced. (even before he was announced, I was saying I was a blob of goo champion).
His "rework" gutted him at the time. But he was also horrifically overbuffed to compensate.
The hp ratio on his Q is honestly out of nowhere and makes no sense. Increase the base damage slightly, but get rid of that nonsense.
But the real game changer was that when they reworked him, the ult was useless. You were NEVER going to land it on a competent player. But they increased the knock up duration (on max charge) of his E, which finally allowed E-R combos. Which is what really brings him over the top. But thats what is good and fun about him now, so I would much rather see his damage hit than his fun CC and combos.
Cowseed1 votesSo his ult was unrealible before, I see. And E-R combo would leave around 0.5 seconds for the enemy caught by the E to react if performed seemlessly. But that doesn't sound that unreliable though unless they have flash or a dash they are going to get it because the Ult also slowed. With the changes though Zac gives his upponents 0.1 second to react if performed perfectly. 1 second knock up minus the 1.1 seconds to now charge the ult.
I do like combos and I agree that Zac doesn't need damage with how he is now because that is kinda overkill on his kit but the space for reaction from a fully charged E into ult is a bit unrealistic a thing to call fair. Between lag, framerate, reaction time and stuff like that not people can realistically time a flash out of that in a full 5v5 teamfight.
Durzaka1 votes0.5 seconds may not sound like a lot. But that is enough time for everyone with a dash to make it out of the area of his ult (and that is a very large portion of the rooster).
The problem with the combo is, it is either too reliable, or its too unreliable. There is very little middle ground for enough reaction time to escape, but not TOO much reaction time where anyone can escape.
Thats why I feel for the sake of how good it feels to play Zac, his damage should be lowered.
Cowseed1 votesDoesn't matter how much we lower his damage now. With a small window of just 0.1 is ult or E has to be addressed eventually.
RocketRelm1 votesI came on to mention the E-R dilemma, but somebody else got to it already. His E-R combo got changed to deny dashing out of it, you can literally knock off 5% win rate from Zac by only reducing his Knock-up by 0.3 seconds.
It isn't a scam either, it's a yes-no question, and I feel like Riot didn't understand just how much this one tiny detail swings Zac's power budget.
SanKakU1 votesI didn't like him before and he doesn't seem like the champ I was hoping they'd rework him into now.
sobi9991 votesHis mains said he was shit and now they are regretting it the most since he is perma banned.