I doubted the Ekko hate...

Celosar·May 29, 2015·113 votes·9,951 views

I doubt no longer. Just laned against him for the first time and while I agree it's an absurdly small sample, spending 20 minutes trying to dodge his Q, stay out of range of his E dash, not get caught in his W which is a slow+stun+shield, AND keeping track of his veigar-like ulti.....

Someone in RD needs to be fired. How a champ with literally every conceivable ability in his kit WITH super high ratios is beyond me.

How? Just how? I don't get it. I thought people play-tested these things to see how it was BEFORE release. Did we skip that phase of the process this time?

279 Comments

Drunk RummateMay 29, 201586 votes

I did this for another thread like this, so I'll do it for yours now too. I pulled the OP.GG stats for the game referenced by the OP to find out how it went. I'm not trying to insult you OP, I'm just going to state facts and then try to provide an unbiased opinion at the end. This is what I saw:

This was a bronze 3 - silver 5 game. Funny, the last thread I saw like this was too. Once again I'll ignore this and move on, but I figured it was worth mentioning.
You were Leblanc mid and dealt slightly less than 4k damage over the duration of the game. You did not get a single kill throughout the entire game, which ended in 24 minutes. You also only died twice and you did get 2 assists.
You had a (full tank) support Wukong that dealt over twice as much damage as you, the assassin mid, over the course of the game.
Their Ekko dealt 15,778 damage and it wasn't even the most damage dealt in the game. Your Shen did 18,382 damage to champions despite having 3 thousand less gold than Ekko at the end of the game.
Your ADC was varus and he died a lot (7 times) but he also dealt considerably more damage than the enemy Ashe who ended with a perfect KDA of 4/0/5

So here's what I gather from this:

Looks like their bot lane won pretty hard. Seems you didn't spend much time helping yours out, while the enemy Ekko got a lot of kills from Varus, Wukong, and Fiora. You had 2 kill participation in a game with 10 kills total for your team on one of the most mobile and safest mids in the game. You also dealt the least amount of damage in the game despite them having 2 extremely squishy and defenseless targets (Ashe and Zyra).

Based on the small amount of damage you did compared to other players with the same amount of gold as you, I would say you played too safely and didn't give it your all in fights - or you positioned poorly and weren't able to deal damage because you had to go onto the wrong target.

Varus clearly gave it his all, and he died a lot because he was against a mobile assassin with bad peel (Zyra), but he did his fair share of damage and honestly probably did as well as Ashe given the circumstances. Ashe should have died as many times as Varus due to your team having both a Fiora and a Leblanc, which she is incapable of dealing with on her own.

You seem like a pretty reasonable person based on how you write, but what makes you think that this game is an accurate representation that Ekko is overpowered in any way? You lost lane and proceeded to play very poorly despite having plenty of targets on a very mobile and snowbally champion. You CSed well enough so you were never stupidly behind in gold to a point of being useless, but you played like you were useless despite this. A Shen with 6k gold dealt more damage over the course of a 24 minute game than an Ekko with 9k gold, and yet here we are in a thread that calls Ekko overpowered?

EvilRabbittMay 29, 20159 votes

Its good to mention elo, not for insult but because it shows if a champ is made for pubstomping or coordinated play (simply because being in a lower elo notes a lack of teamwise gameplay, hence I live there. i usually try to 1v2/3 cuz i play hyper carries xD). I also appreciate the stats thing you did for them ^.^ Totally random comment, as always. Carry on xD

ReazaleMay 29, 20154 votes

I like bandwagoning againts what i perceived as OP but man, i cant say anything here right now...

CelosarMay 29, 20156 votes

I appreciate the time you put into this post but you could have called me bad and said the same thing in 1 word without spending 15-ish minutes of your life breaking down why you think so. I honestly stopped reading about 20 words into when you said ELO and determined my opinion was worthless because I had a crap rank last season.

Something like 70% of the player base is silver or below so saying that those opinions are some how worth less than the "elite" 30% is just well, I giggled.

I will not examine another word of any argument you can come up with until it uses numbers that aren't preceded by some bullshit about rank.

TTFN

IcyPepperMay 29, 201518 votes

I honestly stopped reading about 20 words into when you said ELO and determined my opinion was worthless because I had a crap rank last season.

He clearly put thought into analyzing the match, and...

You were Leblanc mid and dealt slightly less than 4k damage

You had a (full tank) support Wukong that dealt over twice as much damage as you, the assassin mid, over the course of the game.

Their Ekko dealt 15,778 damage and it wasn't even the most damage dealt in the game. Your Shen did 18,382 damage to champions despite having 3 thousand less gold than Ekko at the end of the game.

That's actually quite a few numbers and he hardly mentioned your elo at all, considering it barely worth mentioning since it's the match he's talking about.

CelosarMay 29, 20152 votes

"I will not examine another word of any argument you can come up with until it uses numbers that aren't preceded by some bullshit about rank."

Words.....have meaning.

IcyPepperMay 29, 201526 votes

I did not once read a "Your opinion is worthless" in his post.

Drunk RummateMay 29, 201553 votes

Sigh...

I specifically stated that I would be ignoring your rank in my post almost immediately after I mentioned it. It's worth mentioning because low ELO games tend to have a different dynamic than high ELO games. I never for a moment discounted your opinion because of your rank.

If you aren't willing to learn from your mistakes then you'll never get better. You really should try reading it again, you might learn something.

By the way, some life advice - being so sensitive that you refuse to accept constructive criticism due to a perceived insult is going to set you back for your entire life. You should be happy when there are people who take the time to point out your mistakes, because they may not be as apparent to you.

CelosarMay 29, 20155 votes

I doubt it. I'd just be pissed of the you prefaced the entire post with "you're a bronzie". You tend to lose a great deal of your audience or their attention when you insult them at the beginning. Not even really that it was insulting so much as condescending.

I agree there's a different dynamic between bronze and plat, however, something like 70% of the LoL player base is silver, bronze, or unranked. So if anything, mathematically, bronze/silver players disliking the dynamic of a video game means more than the guys at gold+ because they statistically, as a population, spend more money on the game.

I'm not saying I played particularly amazing in that game. I didn't because I honestly wasn't real sure what to expect. I've tried my damnedest to back up my arguments with actual numbers instead of crying like a lil girl. You didn't read any of that or if you did, didn't reference it or point it out.

Feel free to scroll down/up and find some of that then pick apart my argument based on something other than a single game performance and my rank.

TTFN

Drunk RummateMay 29, 201538 votes

Why would I take the time to look through and carefully read everything you've said in this thread when you refuse to read past even the first paragraph of my post, and subsequently ignore everything else I say?

I'm sorry for upsetting you so much, especially because I was simply trying to help you, but I'm done trying to help you now. You're going to have to help yourself if you want any, the information is all there.

CelosarMay 29, 20151 votes

We'll pretend for a second that you didn't ignore every argument I made BEFORE you wrote your initial post.

Do you always start a conversation by being condescending about their ability to perform task in question?

Drunk RummateMay 29, 201527 votes

No, I don't generally start conversations with that. I didn't in this case either, you're just being ultra sensitive about my wording.

Do you genuinely think you're in the right here? You're showing an absurd amount of stubbornness over what amounts to less than 1% of my post. It's like some extremely elaborate attempt at a red herring that went horribly wrong, and now you refuse to back down based on principle lol.

The SoulforgedMay 29, 20153 votes

Just leave it bro ;*(

Rinky DinkyMay 29, 20155 votes

Ay man.

You have my love for trying to help

HexaDecimelMay 29, 201519 votes

He actually doesn't bring up rank until about 67 words in....

At no point did he say your opinion was worthless. And ignoring a well written argument that has a lot of good points, simply because he mentions rank is hilarious.

CelosarMay 29, 20154 votes

"This was a bronze 3 - silver 5 game. Funny, the last thread I saw like this was too. Once again I'll ignore this and move on, but I figured it was worth mentioning."

I didn't count the words because I was using an arbitrary number. The fact that you took the time to count...well...good job.

The first bullet was a deriding statement about my rank and the previous thread maker's rank.

missinggraveMay 29, 201511 votes

Correlation =/= causation.

They were simply stating a correlation that may have a cause in it, however avoided such conclusions as they have no basis in this argument. You're defensive remarks over something not only apologized for, but was actually ignored past the initial statement is rather immature in my opinion. Especially when proper statistics were brought in to further prove their argument to assist in a more unbiased view over the champion. In fact, they never said you were wrong, they only stated that this specific instance wouldn't be a good example to aid your opinion.

CelosarMay 29, 20151 votes

So it's okay to use numbers that don't actually have any basis in whether a champion is OP or not? I'm not even arguing that Ekko is OP at this point just pointing out that every number he brought up was something about the performance of my team and not the champion in question.

Perhaps it's not the best example to prove whether or not Ekko has the most absurd kit to ever see play, if for no other reason that the sheer number of different mechanics in his kit, BUT, I'm disinclined to spend time reading someone's arguments when they start by casually stating that the author finds it amusing that low elo players seem to find Ekko OP.

HexaDecimelMay 29, 201516 votes

OP vs Logic

Logic: "It's over op, I have the high ground." OP: "You underestimate the power of my QQing." Logic: "Don't try it." OP: "NEEEERRRRFFF EEEEEEKKKKKKKKOOOOOO!!!!!" Logic: SMITE Logic: "You had such potential! It was said you would rise above the rest, not join them. Help bring balance to champions, not leave not leave them in darkness." OP: "I HATE YOU!!!!" Logic: "You were a fellow summoner, I loved you."

The End

ShonjlMay 29, 20156 votes

In the end, you are still silly for not reading when he was trying to help, sure he might have poked a jab with rank but lets face it, it is pretty accurate since most bronzes are terribad. Doesn't matter that by your statistics 70% of the people playing are bronze or silver, if the other 30% are gold and better, they know what they are talking about and they are the people Riot listens to. Why do you think if a pro says something something actually is very likely to change, but you can have 1000s of bronzes or silvers say something and nothing is done? Since they will listen to the guys that know what they are talking about and can prove they know what they are talking about.

That guy spent time to try to help you when most people would just say "Hurr durr you suck nooby bronze, get good or fk your opinion since its worthless" Last i checked, he didn't do that.

CelosarMay 29, 20155 votes

I've since read it. I agree, it's pretty good. I have a bit of a knee jerk when it comes to the mention of rank. I've been playing online games for something like 15 years now and I've never come across this much discrimination based on a statistic in my life.

So when prefaced with some crap about the game being bronze/silver ELO the button was pushed.

Apologies sir.

HexaDecimelMay 29, 20157 votes

Can we also assume you may have had a bit of a knee jerk reaction to your first few matches with ekko?

StrawberrycocoaMay 29, 201512 votes

That is a god damn good breakdown. I've never used OP.GG before, does it give all of this information or did you infer all of the non-numerical points?

Drunk RummateMay 29, 20156 votes

Thank you.

OP.GG gives a ton of information, but most of the stuff not numerically related was inferred. I'm pretty sure they're accurate since there weren't a whole lot of kills/deaths in the game and it wouldn't work logically any other way. For Ekko to get 9 kills and 7 assists, most of them surely had to come from the bot lane. I'm sure there are other ways to check if you're looking to be more accurate, I just didn't spend the time (I know kill location can be pulled from Riot's match history tool).

StrawberrycocoaMay 29, 20153 votes

I'll have to try this website out, thanks.

Captain LitoMay 30, 20152 votes

This is a great post, upvoted. Keep up the good work

SEKAIMay 29, 201545 votes

I thought people play-tested these things to see how it was BEFORE release. Did we skip that phase of the process this time?

Well you could say,

He is the boy who shattered _time _ after all.

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxuyq4hERJ1r3k1m8o1_500.png

Bears Dont CareMay 29, 201522 votes

I play malzahar, who makes him very sad.

AFK PushMay 29, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N08XZzj5,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-05-29T15:46:03.921+0000)

I play malzahar, who makes him very sad.

Malzahar is like the darius of midlane. He makes every enemy laner sad.

ZenimaMay 29, 20152 votes

If you play a long ranged Mage, such as Xerath, Ziggs, or Lux, ~~and/or take cleanse as a summoner spell,~~ you pretty much remove most of Malzahar's kill pressure on you. With decent positioning on top of that, he will have no kill pressure on you whatsoever.

Of course, same can be said about Darius. Play someone he can't get up close and personal to and he loses a lot of kill pressure too. Not to mention they're both immobile and have something to help against tanks in their kit. (pool, %armor reduction passive)

AFK PushMay 30, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Z Grade,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N08XZzj5,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-05-29T21:02:39.887+0000)

If you play a long ranged Mage, such as Xerath, Ziggs, or Lux, and/or take cleanse as a summoner spell, you pretty much remove most of Malzahar's kill pressure on you. With decent positioning on top of that, he will have no kill pressure on you whatsoever.

Of course, same can be said about Darius. Play someone he can't get up close and personal to and he loses a lot of kill pressure too. Not to mention they're both immobile and have something to help against tanks in their kit. (pool, %armor reduction passive)

So you basically just elaborated on what I said about malz being a darius of the midlane. They both fuck up anybody within their range, but do poorly against anybody who outranges them.

ZileanUltJesusOPMay 29, 201516 votes

Does anyone here even realize on his first day of release he had a fairly average win rate? hes an assassin, get the hell over his damage. people be pissed that an assassin has insane damage but then are the same people who play champs like darius who can 100-0 someone and tank. Its the nature of the game and every character has an identity. THAT MAKES THE GAME INTERESTING. Every character has a role and a niche to fill. Assassins assassinate. Tanks tank. Mages burst. Then there are hybrids. Darius for example is a fighter. A mix between a tank and an assassin. Very high damage but tanks. Ekko is a pure assassin. Very low base armor and mr. Very easy to kill if locked down. but as he is an assassin he gets that mobility to help him escape that. Imagine if he had all this damage but no mobility as a melee ap assassin. He would be total garbage. Take it with a grain of salt and realize every champ is different and every champ is extremely strong in some areas and extremely weak in others. Ekko is extremely strong in areas relating to mobility and damage and extremely weak in areas like getting blown up and being melee. ALso people are taking him top and that deprives their team of a bruiser or tank, which could give you the edge in team fights. Look at the whole spectrum before complaining about a few areas

SEKAIMay 29, 201510 votes

Assassins assassinate, sure.

But mobility and CC are not wanted, not when they come in the same damage package at large quantities, it's too much.

[{quoted}](name=xBRUT4L LEG3CYx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=N08XZzj5,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-05-29T16:11:31.351+0000)

but as he is an assassin he gets that mobility to help him escape that.

This is where they were wrong about Zed, mobility is something that should be earned, not defined, especially when we're talking about someone who's specialising in 100-0'ing.

JustMyBassCannonMay 29, 201513 votes

Name. One. Assassin. That does not have CC or Mobility.

If you manage to get that far, tell me how viable they are.

ZileanUltJesusOPMay 29, 20159 votes

full ad darius with boots of swiftness tri force and alacrity. get rekt

JustMyBassCannonMay 29, 20158 votes

Being an anal nerd, I was referring to archetypes, not building Darius as an assassin.

ZileanUltJesusOPMay 29, 20155 votes

what defines an assassin? crazy damage in a short period of time? In that case trynd, fiora, and shaco are all assassins. Shaco doesnt really have mobility and i consider him an assassin . Stealth is a part of some characters kits. He can stealth in but has no way to get away, or he can risk the surprise and use it to get away. Limited mobility, crazy damage. Assassin with no mobility

JustMyBassCannonMay 29, 20157 votes

What defines an assassin is how they function in a team.

An Assassin is a champion whose kit is designed to focus on taking down targets in a team fight. They make someone vulnerable and go in for the kill. Generally, they go for Marksmen, Mages or Supports (or other Assassins), as these targets are usually easier to kill. They avoid tanks and extended fights for the most part.

Because this is their goal, assassins always have mobility and often have CC--although instant, targeted hard CC is considered taboo because of their design. They also tend to have some sort of personal defense tool and some AoE.

All of the archetypes have defined goals in a fight, as well as guaranteed and expected kit tools. The specifics of those tools vary from champion to champion--one assassin may use stealth while another uses untargetability for personal defense, for example--but these are the general parts of what makes an Assassin.

Rinky DinkyMay 29, 20153 votes

He has a pull.

That is a CC.

Get rekt

ZileanUltJesusOPMay 29, 20152 votes

There isn't a single character in the game that doesnt either have mobility or some form of cc tyrannosaurus rekt

Rinky DinkyMay 29, 201510 votes

Mordekaiser

Before patch 5.3, if you count a +60 speedboost when headed towards an ally with Creeping Death as mobility

if not, Mordekaiser has no cc and no mobility.

also has one of the highest winrates in the game for his role.

SlytherinUmbreonMay 29, 20153 votes

Not CC or Mobility, CC and Mobility. Assassin's don't usually get powerful CC, and when they do it's rarely AoE Riven , or just outright designed to not be effective with the Assassin's kit or playstyle Leblanc . (EDIT: to be clear, I'm talking about chains, not the silence) It's also worth mentioning that he has the second largest shield in the game... First, if you don't count Karma, since she only beats him by augmenting her shield with her ult.

More to the point, One of the big reason's people are upset is because Riot said Ekko was "Going to lack the raw power to burst people" and "Favor extended fights." Yeah, no. Completely missed that.

JustMyBassCannonMay 29, 20153 votes

Leblanc doesn't have a silence anymore, so you could only be referring to her root.

In any case, it's also worth mentioning that his powerful AoE CC has a 3-second telegraph. Yes, it's still a powerful AoE stun with a large area. A bit of an odd choice for an assassin, really. But it's entirely avoidable.

Yes, he has the second-largest shield...on a delay that makes it not defensively viable. 3 seconds before he can have the shield. It's an aggression tool, rather than self-defense. It protects him for doing his job, diving into a fight.

Ekko's numbers are high. I won't disagree with that. But the actual kit design isn't too bad.

YOU BEEN WARNEDMay 29, 20151 votes

If getting the shield was hard, I'd agree with you on W's balance. But it is not, considering the range given to W and the amount of mobility he has to get to the W radius. Ekko will only miss out on the shield with his own incompetence.

JustMyBassCannonMay 29, 20152 votes

I didn't say it's hard. I said it's not defensively viable.

It has a 3-second delay. He couldn't use it to react to Karthus' ultimate, let alone any other champion's incoming damage spells. He pretty much has to use it offensively.

YOU BEEN WARNEDMay 29, 20151 votes

Yeah right, you can't counter Zed 's ult with it; you can't escape ganks with it and you can't use it as a zone control tool in teamfights. /sarcasm/

Those are all defensive capabilities you're neglecting and I'd hardly say they're situational, Ekko can buy a item 3157 , cast W on himself and enter stasis for a reliable 5 second window of invulnerability aside from his other abilities.

BlackSunNocturneMay 29, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Name. One. Assassin. That does not have CC or Mobility.

If you manage to get that far, tell me how viable they are.

Akali - Only an engage, no disengage unless there's creeps nearby. Talon - Oh golly, a .25 second 99% slow MasterYi - No CC, mobility though

All really viable. In fact, all of them are considered OP by quite a few people.

Face it, you're defending the most broken release champ EVER just because he's different/new.

JustMyBassCannonMay 29, 20155 votes

{quoted}

- Only an engage, no disengage unless there's creeps nearby. - Oh golly, a .25 second 99% slow - No CC, mobility though

All really viable. In fact, all of them are considered OP by quite a few people.

Congratulations on not actually reading what I said.

Akali, in addition to having a dash, has stealth+MS that slows enemies in the same area. Talon also has stealth+MS, and a large AoE slow. Yi has no CC, but he has mobility. A ton of mobility.

All of them have one or the other. Mobility is a requirement for assassins, CC is a bonus.

Face it, you're defending the most broken release champ EVER just because he's different/new.

No, I'm not defending Leblanc. And Leblanc's not a "he" as far as we know.

BlackSunNocturneMay 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Congratulations on not actually reading what I said.

Akali, in addition to having a dash, has stealth+MS that slows enemies in the same area. Talon also has stealth+MS, and a large AoE slow. Yi has no CC, but he has mobility. A ton of mobility.

All of them have one or the other. Mobility is a requirement for assassins, CC is a bonus.

No, I'm not defending Leblanc. And Leblanc's not a "he" as far as we know.

AH, but they have to use their Mobility to get in and not get out. Ekko has a "Get out of jail free" card that everyone complains about ( Zed , Leblanc )

Also, Ekko can 4-shot FULL BUILD, 400 STACK WITH A TRI-FORCE Nasus . That is beyond broken. According to Riot, Assassins SHOULD NOT be able to kill a tank that quickly, and he 4-shot the tankiest person in the game.

But please, keep saying Ekko's balanced.

JustMyBassCannonMay 29, 20156 votes

{quoted}

AH, but they have to use their Mobility to get in and not get out. Ekko has a "Get out of jail free" card that everyone complains about (, )

The forum complains. And in other news, fire's hot, water's wet and bears shit in the woods.

Akali, Talon and Yi all have means of escaping a fight. Just because it's not Akali's R, Talon's E and Yi's Q doesn't mean jack shit.

Also, Ekko can 4-shot FULL BUILD, 400 STACK WITH A TRI-FORCE . That is beyond broken. According to Riot, Assassins SHOULD NOT be able to kill a tank that quickly, and he 4-shot the tankiest person in the game.

Cool story, wonder what the actual circumstances were of this supposed instagib.

But please, keep saying Ekko's balanced.

Please, continue to misread what I've said. Saying a champion isn't broken doesn't mean they're balanced. But I doubt someone like you would know the difference.