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Damage isn't the ONLY problem.

Icy Hot Shoto··17 votes·8,041 views

I'm seeing this all the time on the boards. People saying it's damage that's the problem, that damage needs to be nerfed.

It's not just damage.

I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice this, but ever since the change in the rune system damage suddenly got higher. It's not just damage that's the problem, it's also the fact that most champions have low base defenses, with no real defense scaling. And with most champions having a lack of defensive items, then they can't survive.

Mages have item 3174 item 3102, with the option to use item 3001 if they can get close enough to utilize the passive without dying for mr. Armor? item 3157. Just zhonyas, as Riot changed GA to be an AD item. Sure, we could buy the boots but when the ad/ap that is doing the damage does more damage then the boots can help with, or isn't auto heavy? Not to mention, most often a mage has to buy sorc boots to be able to do any kind of damage even with a mostly full-ap build.

Adcs? Sure, they have item 3026, item 3156, item 3139, and the boots as well... but often times they can't even buy those because if they do, then they don't do damage, or for some reason lack attack speed even with 2-3 attack speed items that aren't the boots. Unless it's aram, then they don't even have an armor item unless they want to take Zhonya's or a tank item.

Then fighters/juggernauts/bruisers have item 3071, item 3742, item 3812, item 3022, item 3053, item 3065, as well as the items adcs can take, as well as utilize tank boots better than an adc can, and take more tankier items if they wanted to.

And of course tanks have all their tank items, but also deal a ton of damage for no reason without a single damage item.

So, again, it's not just damage that's the problem. The extreme lack of resistance, whether it's base or items, is also part of the problem.

29 Comments

HyperiumVortex13 votes

The "Tanks are so tanky but do a ridiculous amount of damage for NO REASON" is an outdated response.

Tanks just get shredded by all the damage even if they get all of the tank items. There's so much armor pen and true damage being thrown around that tanks are suffering just as badly.

The ONLY champions doing really well right now are lethality users and in rare cases; ap assassins

Icy Hot Shoto2 votes

Have you seen a Poppy 100-0 an adc? I have, and she didn't have a single damage item, nor deadmans. And she took barely any damage.

And you do realize lethality is literally screwed over by armor?

Cowgirl Ed2 votes

poppy is not a good example since she's really fucking broken

TheSingularity5 votes

Have you seen a Poppy 100-0 an adc? I have, and she didn't have a single damage item, nor deadmans. And she took barely any damage.

So a champion that often builds tri force (which no other tank does) who was likely fed, landed her E into a wall managed to not 1 shot, but one combo an ADC. Sorry but an adc all alone should lose to poppy. If with a team they should peel. Otherwise it isn't poppy. It's a team that doesn't know how to peel or doesn't know how to not feed poppy.

And you do realize lethality is literally screwed over by armor?

No, it isn't. Did calculations in an older thread. But if you go full lethality with cleaver and lord dominiks you can smash a tanks armor down to I think it was 82 if they had deadmans, tabi, gargoyle and randuins

Icy Hot Shoto1 votes

It's not just Poppy, it's most if not all tanks. Even Sejuani, who normally never buys damage items, can quickly destroy an adc or even a mage. Poppy was just the first to pop into mind.

That's with the items that are literally made to fuck armor. Try going full lethality without all that, against someone with full armor. It doesn't work, I've seen it quite a few times.

TheSingularity2 votes

That's with the items that are literally made to fuck armor. Try going full lethality without all that, against someone with full armor. It doesn't work, I've seen it quite a few times.

but in what circumstance do assassins skip item 3071 item 3036? Almost never. Even still, going lethality only, shouldn't work vs tanks, period. It would be the same as building item 3074 item 3812 item 3072 with no armor pen. The result would be the same only this time you'd have life steal.

It's not just Poppy, it's most if not all tanks. Even Sejuani, who normally never buys damage items, can quickly destroy an adc or even a mage. Poppy was just the first to pop into mind.

So, a tank that is allowed to sit on top of an adc, CC them and deal their short range dmg while counter building should lose? Damage in this game overall is too high. But if a sej (no, any tank) lands her ult, isn't body blocked and manages to get off a full combo should kill or almost kill an adc unless that adc is Kaisa or Vayne. Same with poppy. She literally has to run through a teams front line to get to an adc. Anything melee, is meant to deal allot of dmg, not just tanks. That's the advantage they get for having no range.

Realistically this shouldn't happen. There should be an assassin making the enemy tank peel their carries. Another tank to stop their tnak from diving. Heals/shields. I very much doubt any tank will kill any carry through all that

HyperiumVortex2 votes

{quoted}

It's not just Poppy, it's most if not all tanks. Even Sejuani, who normally never buys damage items, can quickly destroy an adc or even a mage. Poppy was just the first to pop into mind.

That's with the items that are literally made to fuck armor. Try going full lethality without all that, against someone with full armor. It doesn't work, I've seen it quite a few times.

Miss Fortune going full lethality can destroy a malphite building full armour before he can even ult onto her.

theChibiTina7 votes

Yeah. It also doesn't help that even if you build what little defense there is, there's still true damage and armor penatration to say haha your defense doesn't matter. There needs to be a little less damage and a little more defense to balance things out. Not overdo it to the point where it's tank meta all over again, but just enough for balance.

Fízz v24 votes

Zhonyas isnt even really an armor item, its just the active, which is useless 1v1 vs most AD champs. Zhonyas literally does more against Fizz or Zoe than against Yasuo or marksmen LUL

Godhri1 votes

So true. 45 armor is basically nothing since almost every AD build path has lethality.

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

With just zhonyas you counter the penetration of 2 lethality items and get one of the best actives in the game. Zhonyas isnt weak.

Madsin253 votes

I would maybe like item 3170 to exist in SR, but it might be a little OP considering it is a jack of all trades for an AP user.

Icy Hot Shoto1 votes

Honestly, some items from TT could be brought over, and if needed nerfed/buffed to work. I don't play TT so I can't say how "op" an item is from there, but it wouldn't be the first time Riot added an item and then buffed/nerfed it, the only difference this time would just be the item in from a different game mode being moved over to be used in another one.

Especially since the lack of armor items is really bad for a mage when they're in a game with a bunch of ad-heavy champs. Zhonya's can only do so much with its 45 armor, or 60 if Ornn is on your team.

RC cars are life1 votes

AD users have item 3078 which is enough damage to build full tank afterwards and still do big damage like Darius or Jax

CppL3 votes

We need resistances atleast early game.Nobody likes to get 100-0 at lvl 2-3...Its stupid as fuck.

FilDaFunk2 votes

Damage is the biggest problem, so the baords are focusing.

Icy Hot Shoto1 votes

And focusing one problem doesn't solve the issue. If we looked at all the problems, higher chance of solving the issue.

FilDaFunk2 votes

I disagree, focusing on the biggest problem increases the chance of it being fixed, then we can move onto the next one.

Godhri1 votes

I think it's just the design/core structure of the game that is the issue here. It is hard to balance for different roles when you have the idea of "laning" around. Team play doesn't really come into effect until mid-game when people start grouping for macro plays. So when you issue balance "fixes" you have to take into consideration many different facets of application in the game as opposed to just a single facet of it.

You have to consider the individual 1 on 1 capabilities of the champion based on the balance changes and then also the team play capabilities which is important for mid-late game. If laning was to be eliminated, the balance would only need to be made around team playability.

For example, the only roles that should have 1 on 1 capabilities should be the damage roles such as Assassins, Mid laners, ADCs or damage based Junglers. While other roles should have a kit built around team play. It's like when a support has so much damage (brand, lux, zyra) that it is capable of solo zoning the opposing bot lane. This is a clear issue because it is a support. The support should be supplementing the lane pressure; not directing it.

My point is that when there are clear definitions and scopes for team roles which do not overlap, balancing around it becomes much easier to deal with. What makes league hard to balance is the overlapping definitions and scopes of each role/position.

Just my opinion though.

Icy Hot Shoto1 votes

I think, unfortunately, Pyke kinda puts a big "fawk that" to supports and the 'they shouldn't do damage' aspect. :/

However, I do understand that their is a difference between laning and team fights. It's usually after the first team fight when mages/adcs can see what they need to go for. Did the enemy mage do the most damage? Was I screwed by cc? Scimitar/Maw. Was I screwed by the enemy fighter? Work towards a GA. But then after that, if they're still dying, they either have to sacrifice another spot to maybe survive and hopefully do damage, or stick with the one item and hope they can survive long enough with just that.

While there is a lot that has to be thought of, sometimes understanding and doing what you can to work against/with that difference just doesn't help when you can't get the defense to even survive long enough.

JoeAnarchy1 votes

everyone complained about tanks and the tank meta.. Hashinshin made so many videos on it.. now tanks are "not viable" and everyone complains about damage..

Icy Hot Shoto1 votes

Tanks are still viable, actually. I've had a few games where it was the tank that carried the game, whether it was the tank on my team or the enemy team. Their are just certain tanks that can fill that role better than others, depending on what your team comp is.

RC cars are life1 votes

Also supports have extremely high base damage Karma can do insane amounts of damage with a item 3174 same with Morgana

Icy Hot Shoto1 votes

To be fair, Morgana was made to be a mid laner. She's just effective in the support role. So her high base-damage makes sense. Not sure what to say about Karma, as I haven't seen one doing insane amounts of damage with just an Athene's.

flibitydoo1 votes

how come you mention "and the boots as well" for the adc even though none of them really buy them (by them you and I both mean tabis/treads) and you are also just as free on a mage to skip offensive boots for defensive ones too.

also you mention a bunch of ad/hp items but then not mention the ap/hp items like morellonomicon, rylais, liandries, rod of ages, and through it's shield: archangel's staff.

Also I don't think athene's or abyssal mask are mage items anymore. Never seen a mage go for them all season. Athene's is definitely more of a support item and abyssal mask is a nobody's item but riot likes to pretend amumu builds it (and they like to pretend amumu is viable and seeing lots of play).

Also I have no idea why you put deadman's plate there, it's not really an scaling offensive item like the others. It has no offensive base stats. It's about as offensive as redemption.

Also people are complaining about damage being high because it's the biggest of the issues. There's plenty of other problems like matchmaking and bugs and individual champion designs, but damage is the most prevalent and noticeable one.

Icy Hot Shoto1 votes

The boots are STILL an option, however from what I have noticed, and this is just what I've noticed mind you, skipping the damage/attack speed boots often leads to: Barely any attack speed even with 2-3 attack speed items, or somehow not doing any damage even if full ap. So often times most skip the defensive boots. Not to mention how Riot nerfed merc treads because adcs were taking them...

To be honest, I forgot about those items while making this discussion. So, here's my input on them: They don't help. I've done a build with those 3-4 items and Zhonyas/Banshees(or one of those and deathcap or ludens for extra damage), and... got popped. If you don't have the natural defense to back up your health, health scaling doesn't help from what I've seen. I've seen Anivia's go 5-6 ROA's and get popped.

Nope, you're right that they're basically just support and tank items respectively. But sometimes you have to grab them if you even want a slightly better chance at surviving.

And neither is Spirit Visage but you don't seem to be bringing that up, so why just Deadmans? It is a bruiser item(Darius being one of the main ones I see take it), it gives movement speed, and a damage buff on first auto. Pretty offensive defensive item.

Did I say anywhere that it wasn't a problem? No, I didn't. I said it isn't the ONLY problem. Isn't. As in, is not. It is NOT the only problem. Yes, it's a problem, and maybe it is the biggest problem, but here's the thing. Before runes were removed, damage was never this high. And if it was, it was usually because an item was too strong and needed to be nerfed. Remember Devourer? Yeah, that sure was a great item. Was great seeing Vayne or Yi jungle, then when they finally showed up to gank they're suddenly procing their silver bolts/double strike on the second auto instead of the 3rd. That was unbalanced damage. Riot couldn't find a way to balance it at the time, so they removed it.

So, yet again, while damage is a problem so is the lack of resistance to deal with the damage. I'm not saying we need to go back to the tank meta, we really don't. But constantly nerfing and buffing damage items doesn't seem to be the way to go when it constantly leads to certain champs being nerfed/buffed alongside them. Look how many times Yasuo has been nerfed because of crit items price raising, then him being buffed, followed by crit items being buffed and then Yasuo being nerfed. Or crit items being buffed/nerfed and him just being in that weird state of too strong and terrible until they mess with crit items again.

If constantly buffing/nerfing the items isn't helping, maybe look at base stats instead.

Sire Hippington1 votes

it's also the fact that most champions have low base defenses, with no real defense scaling. And with most champions having a lack of defensive items, then they can't survive.

When people talk about Damage, they usually don't mean raw damage numbers on paper, but damage in relation to tankiness, and also how fast the damage can be dished out, which is also why the term TTK(Time To Kill) often is used, since TTK is the direct result of those factors. It would be rather stupid to look at any factor in isolation, you always have to look at relations and interactions.

So again, usually when someone talks about damage, he doesn't talk about face values, instead he's simply concerned by how fast healthbars disapear, wether that's lack of defense or overaboundance of damage is mostly like seeing a glass half empty or half full. In the end what matters is that damage compared to tankiness is to high.

Icy Hot Shoto1 votes

Just gonna make a general comment instead of replying to a bunch of different people.

I've never seen a Talon take BC. However, I also never meant that it's a COMMON thing. However, it is still a thing where people take the 3 lethality items and just that with no other pen items. It's not common, but it DOES happen.

If focusing on the bigger problem is the best way to deal with things, why did it take Riot almost an entire season to even bother doing anything when almost everyone and their mother was complaining about damage?

Just because a tank 100-0 an adc doesn't mean we let them sit on the adc's face. And what about mages? I've seen it happen to the MID LANE mages, are they just bad then because they didn't peel for them self? No, they're not.

In a sense, you're correct. However, I've seen items that haven't been touched this season do more damage then they did last season. I'm looking at it from a general perspective, from what I've seen before and what I'm seeing now. Heck, sometimes those items seem to do less damage then they did last season, however I'm also seeing the effect on different champions. So from what I can gather, base stats seem to also factor in as well, and not just "oh this item did 150 damage to me it's op nerf if."

DNFVixen1 votes

{quoted}

I'm seeing this all the time on the boards. People saying it's damage that's the problem, that damage needs to be nerfed.

It's not just damage.

I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice this, but ever since the change in the rune system damage suddenly got higher. It's not just damage that's the problem, it's also the fact that most champions have low base defenses, with no real defense scaling. And with most champions having a lack of defensive items, then they can't survive.

Mages have item 3174 item 3102, with the option to use item 3001 if they can get close enough to utilize the passive without dying for mr. Armor? item 3157. Just zhonyas, as Riot changed GA to be an AD item. Sure, we could buy the boots but when the ad/ap that is doing the damage does more damage then the boots can help with, or isn't auto heavy? Not to mention, most often a mage has to buy sorc boots to be able to do any kind of damage even with a mostly full-ap build.

Adcs? Sure, they have item 3026, item 3156, item 3139, and the boots as well... but often times they can't even buy those because if they do, then they don't do damage, or for some reason lack attack speed even with 2-3 attack speed items that aren't the boots. Unless it's aram, then they don't even have an armor item unless they want to take Zhonya's or a tank item.

Then fighters/juggernauts/bruisers have item 3071, item 3742, item 3812, item 3022, item 3053, item 3065, as well as the items adcs can take, as well as utilize tank boots better than an adc can, and take more tankier items if they wanted to.

And of course tanks have all their tank items, but also deal a ton of damage for no reason without a single damage item.

So, again, it's not just damage that's the problem. The extreme lack of resistance, whether it's base or items, is also part of the problem.

zhonyas doesn't even help mages survive against assassins anymore

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