@Riot. Wardhopping Looks Good On Stream, But Is It Good Design?

Solideus·Dec 12, 2014·25 votes·2,163 views

Target-exclusive jumps (to allies) can be used to any point with a ward. Wards are so easy to come by that it trivializes the "limit" of having to jump to a target; it only adds one trite step to the execution and you can go anywhere.

Why even have Target-"limited" jumps if wardhopping exists? Target-"limited" means nothing with super-accessible wards. If target-jumps will start being balanced around being usable to any point, over any wall, why not remove the middle man and make them not require a target?

35 Comments

Wise SquirrelDec 12, 201411 votes

E Sports LCS Big Plays.

Other than that, they only serve to frustrate the playerbase.

DragonSIayerPoroDec 12, 20142 votes

If you dont like it ban it, or stfu and learn to play against it Downvoted because silver dont know how to kill leesin etc.

JunkοDec 13, 20143 votes

Sorry i can only ban 3 champs, not 10 or so that can ward hoop

DragonSIayerPoroDec 14, 20142 votes

Kat,Lee,jax 3 bans. Who are the other 7+ ward hoppers? Lmao and there are alot more "op" things than ward hops. Ever hear of a champ called Kassadin? You know what his ult does? Of course not you're to busy bitching about getting wrecked by LeeSin. It's not hard to chase them ever hear of flash? Half of the champs have an escape or gap closer. Aatrox Ahri Azir Caitlyn Corki Elise Ezreal Fizz Gnar Gragas Graves Hecarim Irelia JarvanIV Jax Kassadin Katarina Khazix Leblanc LeeSin Lissandra Lucian Malphite Nidalee Nocturne RekSai Renekton Riven Sejuani Shaco Shen Shyvana Thresh Urgot XinZhao Yasuo Zed Ziggs Zac

JunkοDec 14, 20141 votes

I was not aware most of these champions had: -a ton of mobility -high ratios -shield -lifesteal -spellvamp -slow -% hp damage -true sight -high base damage -knockback -knockup -manaless

Lee already has everything in his fucking kit why does he need ward hopping too?

Btw Cait,Elise, Gragas, Graves, Irelia, Jarvan, Jax, Lissandra, Lucian, Nocturne, Renekton, Seujani, Shen, Shyvana, Thresh, Urgot, Yasuo and Ziggs all cannot chase down somebody who just used flash without using their own flash or burning a spell that makes them useless after they catch up (Shen E costs 100 energy for christ sake and has lower range). No seriously look at the range of their abilities before pointing out all gap closers in the game.

Earl EulrichDec 12, 201410 votes

It´s not...Lee is doing rather well in TTT, Dominion and even ARAM without having access to even more mobility by ward-hopping. It just adds strengths that should never have existed in the first place to some Champions.

Sybil CutDec 12, 20148 votes

They removed ward hopping. It sounds hard to believe, but a couple months after Lee Sin dropped, they removed ward hopping. For one patch.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V1.0.0.120

The backlash was so high that they put it back in.

Earl EulrichDec 12, 20147 votes

mh, and that back in the days when wards had been sort of a real investment

Sybil CutDec 12, 20147 votes

Yep. Sightstone wasn't a thing, ward items weren't as much of a thing (except wriggles) and trinkets weren't a thing. Back then, if you wanted to ward hop, you carried a ward or two on you. It was an actual money investment to be able to ward hop.

Nowadays it's much less so, which is why ward hopping is so much more toxic than it was back then as wards are now essentially free instead of having to use a consumable in order to jump.

Back then if you wanted to ward hop 10 different times over the course of a game it would cost you 750 gold for that power (unless wriggles once every few minutes). It's a relatively hefty gold investment but well worth.

Hyrum GraffDec 13, 20142 votes

....And now it costs you 800 and an item slot.

I don't play lee, so don't try to be like "you just don't want your champ nerfed."

I want lee nerfed, I just don't think this is the best way to do it.

DeliothDec 13, 20142 votes

But that 800 gold and item slot gives you 4 ward hops every time you go back to base- you only have to ward jump 11 times for it to be efficient, not even including the hp that sightstone gives.

Hyrum GraffDec 13, 20141 votes

It's like avarice blade. Sure, in the long run you're gonna have more gold than the other carry. But if you get engaged on right now, their pickaxe is going to do a lot more work.

It's a tradeoff. #MeaningfulChoices

Sybil CutDec 15, 20141 votes

Sightstone can make you gold over the course of a game, which makes ward jumping gold positive. Previously, there was no situation in which it was gold positive; in fact it was -always- negative.

And for the record, wards have always taken an item slot, so the "it takes an item slot" is not a thing. Prior, once you were six items you couldnt ward hop anymore unless you had a wriggles. Now, you can buy sightstone, or you can just take your * * free * * trinket jumps (which, if you use on cooldown, saves you MORE gold than the amount you would have spent on wards in season one when lee was released)

It was a tradeoff, but it was an incredibly inbalanced tradeoff leaning towards season 4.

They could make a really good change though. if they removed ward interactions with "free" wards and only kept them for the consumable, it would keep all of the vision they like and cause ward jumping to actually have a cost again.

CerbearusDec 13, 20141 votes

Trinket ward is free every 2 minutes. How about that for free dashes?

Hyrum GraffDec 13, 20141 votes

I'm okay with a 'free' jump that has a cooldown of a veigar ult.

DecaedeusDec 15, 20141 votes

item 3340 doesn't cost 800 gold OR an item slot. I agree with you on both of your other points though.

Hyrum GraffDec 15, 20141 votes

It has a cooldown comparable to Veigar's ult. I'm alright with that.

RaptameiDec 13, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sybil Cut,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MjVPagAi,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2014-12-12T22:36:33.585+0000) They removed ward hopping. It sounds hard to believe, but a couple months after Lee Sin dropped, they removed ward hopping. For one patch.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V1.0.0.120

The backlash was so high that they put it back in.

But they DIDN'T put it back in for Karma's shield bomb.

http://cdn.staticneo.com/w/leagueoflegends/a/ae/KarmaIcon.png

CerbearusDec 13, 20141 votes

Her empowered shield might as well not exist anymore with how lackluster it is...

Hyrum GraffDec 13, 20142 votes

I totally disagree with this sentiment. It's totally lackluster in a 1v1 scenario (aside from the occasional nuking them after they come out of zhonya's, or clearing a wave with style). But in a teamfight, that's a huge aoe shield and speed boost, with some damage attached.

Just because the damage isn't the primary focus of that ability any more, doesn't mean it 'might as well not exist'. In my {rather extensive} experience with Karma, ult E is better than ult Q in the majority of teamfights (the exception being, if you can get both parts of ult-q to go off on a priority target or if you need ult-w to heal and stay in the fight).

Kobila2000Dec 13, 20141 votes

WOW. I did not know that. I guess the backlash was enough for them to understand the power of Lee's fanboys.

MadraDec 14, 20141 votes

{quoted} WOW. I did not know that. I guess the backlash was enough for them to understand the power of Lee's fanboys.

And you know how many nerfs Lee Sin has had since then...

Kobila2000Dec 13, 20141 votes

It would probably help if he didn't have so much damage on top of a mountain of utility.

eliteofdeleteDec 12, 20144 votes

Ward hopping removes the aspect of team play in a team game. If it was removed, the game would require more team play in order to execute certain plays.

Currently, there is nothing more fun then turning around and running back to your Braum so he can jump to safety. For Jax/Lee/Kat/etc, you feel less inclined because they don't need it. They are expected to perform their own life saving moves via ward hops. And if they fail, die, and start blaming you for not turning around to save them, you simply point out they should have had a ward.

Such a great team play mechanic! ;)

Poldy ScarecrowDec 12, 20143 votes

Which champions are able to ward hop? I know of Kat, Lee and Jax but idk of any more. I think it's a cool mechanic and wouldn't mind seeing it on more champs.

SolideusDec 13, 20142 votes

Those are the ones that can. You'd expect Braum to be able to, but Stand Behind Me don't work on wards. I think the same rule should apply to Kat, Lee and Jax, though.

B3ERDec 13, 20142 votes

I get that we all love to get on the Lee Sin hate train, but we have to consider things in an unbiased way. Ward hopping from most champions is an investment/reward function. Jax invests his damage, Lee Sin invests his shield and longer cooldown on W. They both receive opportunity from it instead of raw stat wise power. What you do with that gained opportunity is a matter of carefully managing your skill. Only Katarina gets to have her cake and eat it.

This is why Lee Sin has a 45% win rate; after all the nerfs to his raw power, he's mostly defined by how well you can utilize the opportunities he provides, and that only really works well in the right hands and a premade team (Competitive scene). You are literally a detriment to your team in solo queue if you can't pull off at least the standard Insec.

I personally enjoy wardhopping as a mechanic in LoL. It's not complex yet it adds depth as it makes the game a lot less linear. It creates a certain amount of uncertainty in champion's play patterns that is nearly unique to the user. Imagine if all the champs in the game were as predictable as Shyvana. That would be boring from both the person playing Shy and the opponent.

I get you're frustrated from not being capable of dealing with the opportunities created by your opponent, but I think the more productive thing would be to improve your play so you're less vulnerable to that. Right now, you're just complaining about something you can't adapt to.... yet. You will if you try.

JunkοDec 13, 20144 votes

What investment? The ward trinket is free.

B3ERDec 13, 20142 votes

Read, brotha. It aint hard.

SolideusDec 13, 20141 votes

The "investment" in using abilities for different things is a different matter, and that's fine. The existence of wardhopping just removes the difference between requiring a target and free movement, which removes the constraints such abilities surely are *supposed *to be balanced around.

This is about gameplay design, not power, but winrate isn't an indication of power on its own, anyway.

No one wants to "dumb down" all of the mechanics, but in this case the constraints of this mechanic is trivialized by wardhopping. Retaining constraints and differentiating mechanics is how you create unique play-patterns, and is obviously not going to make everyone like Shyvana.

Your last paragraph is just badly disguised ad hominem, which shouldn't be part of the conversation.

B3ERDec 13, 20141 votes

When Riot introduced trinkets and sightstone, they recognized that this would indeed reduce these constraints. It's possibly the reason Lee got more popular from that moment on; he had more access to making plays now.

When it comes down to wardhopping becoming free to use, I think Riot weighed some pro's and cons to sightstone and trinkets. Lee would get stronger, but the entire support class would be more rewarding to play. Solution: nerf Lee's raw power if he gets out of line.... and Riot did. While I don't disagree on your argument about play patterns, I do believe Riot has attempted to add constraints to it for Lee; drastically increased CD on W and no shield gain either. The only thing he ends up getting for it is a repositioning tool, which is valuable for any champion.

You're right to say that win rate isn't an indication of power on its own, however win rates can't be trivialized either, as they're still valid data points. The trick is to draw conclusions from them properly. Too often are they used as a way to indicate OPs or UPs. Heck, often enough they're ignored where people are calling a champ with high win rates UP or vice versa.

With regards to the ad hominem, it wasn't intended to be. From my experience, I know what its like to be frustrated with a mechanic I haven't figured out on how to counter it yet. When I do know what to do, I feel silly for complaining about it in the first place. On these grounds, my last paragraph in my initial post will be significant for those who take it to heart. It's valid.

Kobila2000Dec 13, 20142 votes

Well when 99% of champions don't have the means to "create opportunities" like certain other champions, don't you think the problem might be in said champions and not in the players? Or do you think other champions will gain an ability to ward jump if they just wish for it hard enough? And is it just a coincidence that so many Lee Sins just happen to be played by opponents who can "create opportunities everyone is incapable of dealing with"?

B3ERDec 13, 20141 votes

It's quite alright for champions to have different ways and magnitudes of creating opportunities. In similar sense, there are champions who can utilize those opportunities very well. From what I've noticed so far, is that champions who are great at creating opportunities get their raw power reduced significantly.

While Lee Sin is an attractive example, I'll use another: Blitzcrank has a very strong tool to create even scenarios into advantages. He can do this from considerable range with a good deal of safety as well. In response to this, Riot has nerfed his tankiness significantly, so that he runs more risk should he engage on the wrong target.

The same counts for Lee Sin. Riot took away his W resistances, lowered the shield duration from 5 to 2 seconds, removed his AS slow completely (which was one of the things that gave him some much needed love late game), lowered Q damage in base, scaling and %HP, lowered cooldowns across the board, reduced Iron Will duration, reduced his AS, etc. They basically removed all of this so to compensate for the opportunities.

On the flipside there are champions who have next to no way of creating opportunities but can still overburden you with stats. A good example of this is Nasus. When she reaches an item and stack threshold, you can only pray that you have the kit or comp to stop him. He doesn't have any initiation or outplay potential other than Ult baiting, yet he can lay the law down on your towers and squishies.

If you bring this together, you'll see that Lee can't win from Nasus in a duel and can only run away. Nasus can not catch Lee for the kill, but he can put pressure on objectives. Strengths and weaknesses, it's how league works.

On to the argument of everyone being incapable of dealing with Lee, that's bullshit and you know it. If that was true, the champ would have convincing winrates in all levels of play, including competitive. This isn't the case, though. He's just popular.

HayaishiDec 13, 20142 votes

It's not good design, but Riot doesn't care about good design they just want unique mechanics.

SmokingPuffinDec 13, 20141 votes

Why even have Target-"limited" jumps if wardhopping exists? Target-"limited" means nothing with super-accessible wards. If target-jumps will start being balanced around being usable to any point, over any wall, why not remove the middle man and make them not require a target?

Ward jumps have a higher cost than Ezreal E.

At least they did.

Now that we have trinkets and sightstone, this argument has gotten much weaker, which is why Braum can't jump to a ward.

Ward jumping isn't leaving Lee's kit anytime soon, though, because big plays. Gonna have to live with it, figure out some other way to bring him into competitive balance.