Why is Shiv so much more popular than Phantom Dancer right now?

PatMcGroyn·Nov 11, 2014·3 votes·2,890 views

I can't even begin to understand the math that would go into calculating the DPS of the two items, but it seems to me that the extra crit chance and atk spd provided by Phantom Dancer would scale significantly better than Statik Shiv. Maybe it's the OCD tendencies in me, but having 55% crit chance from IE + PD seems so much better than the 45% crit chance of IE + Shiv; the difference between critting MOST of the time, instead of a good SOME of the time.

I understand that certain champs have synergy with the passive because of dashes (lucian low cd dash, Trist jump resets) or other mobility in their kit (Jinx 'Get Excited'), but I just don't feel like the extra magic damage scales particularly well into late game. Especially when most champs have built MR, and ADCs don't build a significant amount of magic pen. Am I crazy here?

48 Comments

UPfreelyNov 12, 20146 votes

It's mostly the burst, a static shiv crit is 250 dmg after IE. that's significant at any point of the game and more valuable than sustained dps because of how short fights usually are. It's also 300 gold cheaper.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 11, 20144 votes

Because dps only really matters when fights last longer than 5 seconds.

GanksLikeGast0nNov 11, 20143 votes

The shiv provides more utility and a larger damage spike earlier. You can get it significantly faster due to it's build path and cost, it provides a deceptive amount of additional safe harass, and gives ADC's an effective form of wave clear and pushing without needing to waste mana on abilities.

Raja ChachkiNov 12, 20143 votes

Cuz ma waveclear bruh, did u know that runaan's hurreecane is even bettr? 'specially on Lee Sin! u tried Ravenous Hydra on Tristana? it werks wunders. ^the smartness of new players in this game. Everyone is baited by the wave clear in Shiv, and PD seems so boring, even though it scales WAY BETTER and does WAY MORE.

MatthevvNov 11, 20142 votes

I always get PD because I like the unit collision passive. I have definitely noticed that PD is not as strong as Statik Shiv. To put it simply, statik shiv is a more cost efficient buy than phantom dancer in terms of power.

PatMcGroynNov 11, 20142 votes

I always get PD because I like the unit collision passive. I have definitely noticed that PD is not as strong as Statik Shiv. To put it simply, statik shiv is a more cost efficient buy than phantom dancer in terms of power.

See, I don't know if that's true, though. If you're auto attacking a lot, I think the higher crit chance and atk spd of PD lends to higher DPS.

Sailor MintNov 11, 20141 votes

Only if you don't have to move. Shiv is superior in most cases including wave clear and short trades/dueling.

MatthevvNov 11, 20141 votes

See, I don't know if that's true, though. If you're auto attacking a lot, I think the higher crit chance and atk spd of PD lends to higher DPS.

Statik shiv has a superior movement speed stat on it. Staying alive as an adc is more important than maximum potential dps. If this wasn't true then adc's wouldn't bother with ga or some other defensive item. They would all just go straight damage.

Not to mention the fact that the statik shiv proc is extra dps added into the item.

PatMcGroynNov 12, 20145 votes

See, I don't know if that's true, though. If you're auto attacking a lot, I think the higher crit chance and atk spd of PD lends to higher DPS.

Statik shiv has a superior movement speed stat on it. Staying alive as an adc is more important than maximum potential dps. If this wasn't true then adc's wouldn't bother with ga or some other defensive item. They would all just go straight damage.

Not to mention the fact that the statik shiv proc is extra dps added into the item.

1% more move speed is pretty negligible, honestly. That only ends up translating into like 3-4 extra ms points. Whereas ignoring unit collision could very noticeably help you escape/ chase, because creep block is op.

MatthevvNov 12, 20141 votes

1% more move speed is pretty negligible, honestly. That only ends up translating into like 3-4 extra ms points. Whereas ignoring unit collision could very noticeably help you escape/ chase, because creep block is op.

Yea and some people think 3 hp/5 is negligible too. This game is a numbers game, even the tiniest bumps have the biggest effects. Just take a look at previous champion move speed changes and what happened as a result.

PatMcGroynNov 12, 20141 votes

1% more move speed is pretty negligible, honestly. That only ends up translating into like 3-4 extra ms points. Whereas ignoring unit collision could very noticeably help you escape/ chase, because creep block is op.

Yea and some people think 3 hp/5 is negligible too. This game is a numbers game, even the tiniest bumps have the biggest effects. Just take a look at previous champion move speed changes and what happened as a result.

Most ms nerfs have been at least 10 movespeed, though. And that's base movespeed. 10 ms out of 325-250 is a big percentage.

Earl EulrichNov 12, 20141 votes

that would be true if you every find a fight where everybody just ignores you...but if you look at it realisticly you´ll end up having short windows to "burst" down on your opponent with 2-4attacks before you have to reposition yourself as an ADC. And in this Window the dps generated by crit are fairly random/luck based anyway, while the staticc-procc always is there to help out.

Wînter FoxNov 12, 20142 votes

GOLD.

disregardableNov 11, 20141 votes

No, that's the point. PD scales better than Shiv. Although the magic damage DOES crit quite often late game, so it's not a total waste to pick up shiv.

PatMcGroynNov 11, 20141 votes

No, that's the point. PD scales better than Shiv. Although the magic damage DOES crit quite often late game, so it's not a total waste to pick up shiv.

I personally just prefer knowing that I will crit MOST of the time... especially on Caster ADCs like Lucian/ Graves/ Varus, I've been going for Ionian boots, because they scale so well with CDR. Leaving my build only 1 spot for an atk spd/ crit item, so the extra Atk Spd from PD seems more valuable.

disregardableNov 11, 20141 votes

What are you wasting your build items on, defense? I almost always build both Shiv and PD after IE. That's a 75% crit chance.

PatMcGroynNov 11, 20142 votes

What are you wasting your build items on, defense? I almost always build both Shiv and PD after IE. That's a 75% crit chance.

I mean, if you have good positioning and play in Wood 5, you can get away with all damage items. In the real world, marksmen need at least a Banshee's/ QSS/ GA.

MorissNov 11, 20141 votes

There are 6 reasons why. Reason 1-> It does damage Reason 2-> It does magic damage! This makes it harder to itemize against the adc in possession. The magic damage can crit too! Which is nuts! Reason 3-> It gives more move speed Reason 4-> It's passive is just more reliable and truthfully phantom dancers passive is just underwhelming. Reason 5-> It's item path is just more efficient. Avarice Blade gives you gold per unit and gold per 10 seconds. That's just crazy good. When you compare this to cloak of agility it's just laughable. Cloak gives you a crapshoot whereas blade gives you a crapshoot and consistent gold generation. Reason 6-> All the above reasons

PatMcGroynNov 12, 20142 votes

There are 6 reasons why. Reason 1-> It does damage Reason 2-> It does magic damage! This makes it harder to itemize against the adc in possession. The magic damage can crit too! Which is nuts! Reason 3-> It gives more move speed Reason 4-> It's passive is just more reliable and truthfully phantom dancers passive is just underwhelming. Reason 5-> It's item path is just more efficient. Avarice Blade gives you gold per unit and gold per 10 seconds. That's just crazy good. When you compare this to cloak of agility it's just laughable. Cloak gives you a crapshoot whereas blade gives you a crapshoot and consistent gold generation. Reason 6-> All the above reasons

I understand that Shiv gives an earlier, mid game power spike, and Avarice Blade is good for farming. I just personally don't feel like the Shiv proc ever does that much damage, especially considering the trade off you're making between crit chance. I could see it having higher DPS if you only get a few autos off, but in an extended fight, I would think Phantom Dancer's single target DPS (really what ADCs are built for in teamfights) would be significantly higher than Shiv.

Also, I think you're underrating the ignorance of unit collision. It can come up very clutch when kiting through creep waves.

StealWolverineNov 12, 20141 votes

One proc may not be a lot of damage, but poking properly in lane multiple shocks add up. More so if you make sure to move between aa's.

ShinBladesNov 12, 20141 votes

There are 6 reasons why. Reason 1-> It does damage Reason 2-> It does magic damage! This makes it harder to itemize against the adc in possession. The magic damage can crit too! Which is nuts! Reason 3-> It gives more move speed Reason 4-> It's passive is just more reliable and truthfully phantom dancers passive is just underwhelming. Reason 5-> It's item path is just more efficient. Avarice Blade gives you gold per unit and gold per 10 seconds. That's just crazy good. When you compare this to cloak of agility it's just laughable. Cloak gives you a crapshoot whereas blade gives you a crapshoot and consistent gold generation. Reason 6-> All the above reasons

the magic damage doesnt make it hard to itemize agaisnt adcs. its nothing of magic damage

Earl EulrichNov 11, 20141 votes

For me it´s because the Shiv-procc is a reliable source of dmg, whiel the 10%crit PD has over Shiv is not...so if the most part of your dmg comes down to luck anyway it doesn´t matter if you have 45 or 55% chance of being lucky in the end...either you´re lucky or you´re not and everything is wasted anyway.

RNG is just one big mess atm, but unfortunately Riot hasnßt announced to do anything about it this preseason so far.

PatMcGroynNov 12, 20142 votes

For me it´s because the Shiv-procc is a reliable source of dmg, whiel the 10%crit PD has over Shiv is not...so if the most part of your dmg comes down to luck anyway it doesn´t matter if you have 45 or 55% chance of being lucky in the end...either you´re lucky or you´re not and everything is wasted anyway.

RNG is just one big mess atm, but unfortunately Riot hasnßt announced to do anything about it this preseason so far.

I don't think 55% probability can be considered "lucky," though. That's actually pretty reliable - more than half of your attacks will crit. To me, it seems so much more reliable than 45%.

Earl EulrichNov 12, 20142 votes

if you call 55% reliable you can also start panning your finances around winning the lottery...anything less than 100% is just far from being reliable.

PatMcGroynNov 13, 20141 votes

if you call 55% reliable you can also start panning your finances around winning the lottery...anything less than 100% is just far from being reliable.

LOL!

If the lottery had a 55% chance of winning, everybody and their mothers would buy 20 tickets a day! Really bad example...

Earl EulrichNov 13, 20141 votes

it´s ok, you don´t have to get the point.

and everybody+their mothers already buys lottery tickets, cause they understand probability as well as you do.

EffectFXNov 12, 20141 votes

Free wave clear and 100-200 bonus damage (or 150-300 if you have IE) every few seconds is pretty nice, gives you a little extra punch.

RyvakuNov 12, 20141 votes

I always get both for my adc.

Janna HazeNov 12, 20141 votes

obviously waveclear is the only reason. Also wtf with people claiming to build both... do u even adc?

ZeroAnarchyNov 12, 20141 votes

Vayne doesn't mind both

PatMcGroynNov 13, 20141 votes

Vayne doesn't mind both

I think Vayne does better with one or the other, because IE is really valuable on her (since all her DPS is from Autos), and she already gets enough atk spd from BotRK & Greaves. And given how squishy Vayne is, with her short range, she almost certainly needs a defensive item in her build.

Kuroi86Nov 12, 20141 votes

PD= dueling potential Shiv= wave clear

straight4freeNov 12, 20141 votes

The damage from Shiv doesn't scale, that is why you buy it fairly early and then sell it for a PD late game.

The MechENov 12, 20141 votes

Shiv gets you into the game faster because it's cheaper. It also builds out of a gp/5 item. That's pretty good.

MPendragonNov 12, 20141 votes

Because in the current meta, ADC's are too afraid to fully commit to engagements.

So even though their kit is designed for them to be continuously auto-attacking, they're fleeing from engagements so damn often that Phantom Dancer doesn't have the utility that it was designed for. Thus Statik Shiv is picked up, so they can periodically do their primary job.

Soul ResonanceNov 12, 20141 votes

Shiv does damage to more enemies and increases the chance of critical strike compared to Phantom (even though phantom has an extra 5%) and the Shiv is like a much cooler means of dealing multiple kills compared to Runaan for example.

Ale non è maleNov 12, 20141 votes

Because there are few pure AD scaling champs with no abilities to dash or move really fast And also because people tend to try to get a stronger early game item that allow her to build a further advantage rather than an item that scale better late game

AtheosisXNov 12, 20141 votes

They are both good. If only all the items in the game had such parody. Then choices wouldn't so often be automatic.

Skia AsteriNov 12, 20141 votes

I get Shiv if I get Avarice Blade early-ish, PD if I sit on the really gold efficient Zeal for a long time getting other important items.

FarRockBFNov 12, 20141 votes

Why is no one pointing out that shiv is nearly FREE late game from all the passive gold it gives! At least 1000 free gold makes THE most gold efficient attack items in the game.

Edit: Ha the guy on top of me noticed. Whoops.

Teridax68Nov 12, 20141 votes

item 3087 gives more burst in fights, and allows you to clear a lot quicker and poke champions on the far side of minion waves. I also think it's the more popular option of the two simply because it's the more interesting item: item 3046 is pretty much just a stat stick, while Shiv has a cool mechanic with a very visible impact on your environment when you use it.

Drunk RummateNov 12, 20141 votes

shiv is cheaper, has more burst, has waveclear, and gives more movespeed

exiledFromBadmenNov 12, 20141 votes

Hi Quinn

item 3087 +Passive+E+Passive=Black Screen

PatMcGroynNov 13, 20141 votes

Hi

+Passive+E+Passive=Black Screen

Quinn's E completely refreshes Shiv passive CD? Damn, that does sound op...

exiledFromBadmenNov 13, 20141 votes

No, only her own passive(but deals so mch dmg)

FooDangNov 12, 20141 votes

It depends on your ADC...if you don't have reliable waveclear like Ezreal of Vayne shiv would be better for pushing out waves and getting back to the fight or clearing waves during seiges...Lucian doesn't need the extra wave clear so PD is an option for that extra crit chance for Lightslinger...

FantasySniperNov 13, 20141 votes

Any champion with a burst or mobility cycle would use it over PD or Tri for most of the game.

Jinx Tristana Vayne Graves technically Quinn Ashe has a special synergy with it. mADCs specifically benefit from it, and if they don't use Tri, they're going to use Shiv.

That said, you would replace it with PD on a great majority of champions after you finish your build for maximum DPS, especially after they've managed to build their MR items because you don't build mag. pen.