We need to talk about LEE and win rate

ACENOX·Jan 21, 2016·26 votes·3,000 views

cause i'm fucking tired of people using win rate on their side.

"high win rate champ doesn't mean anything if the pick rate is low" according to meddler, OK since a low pick rate will reduce the sample of players and their main tend to win a lot with the champ. Ok nothing wrong

"lee sin win rate doesn't mean anything, because his pick rate is high" the fuck is this arg? it's because his pick rate is high that both lee sin mains and noob lee sin are taken in account, if the outcome makes a <50% win rate it means that he isn't broken since ALL lvl of the champ are playing him.

get it? now get over it.

46 Comments

Br4ndonJan 21, 201610 votes

According to http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin people(plat+) who have played lee sin at least 125 times have about 47% winrate. Going off that alone and not knowing anything about the champion i would assume he's on the weak side.

But we know that isn't true. Using winrates can only be helpful if you use them with additional information to back them up. Not just "45% winrate so this champion is weak".

Jason the otherJan 21, 20161 votes

Lee sin only appears to be really op and strong because of his rediculious early game but later in the game he falles off very hard because he has no easy reliable cc like malphite sej elise ect. The only way he can send an enemy into your allies is to insec them and durring that moment he can be cc and killed (also insecing is really hard to do). all early game champs seem strong like leblanc AND riven but they fall of REALLY hard and its tough to carry unless you get SUPER fed. Seriously ive lost games when im 19-10 something as lee sin just cause of his aweful scaling. if you think im wrong load in to a game as lee sin and youll see how hard he is of a champion.

PsychoBabbleJan 21, 20161 votes

I like this, BUFF LEE SIN

Jason the otherJan 21, 20161 votes

I never said buff him but that he isnt as strong as people make it out to be

PsychoBabbleJan 21, 20161 votes

no but I did, dropping it in every lee sin post because its the truth

ElJanitorFrankJan 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

According to http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin people(plat+) who have played lee sin at least 125 times have about 47% winrate. Going off that alone and not knowing anything about the champion i would assume he's on the weak side.

But we know that isn't true. Using winrates can only be helpful if you use them with additional information to back them up. Not just "45% winrate so this champion is weak".

Lol the downvotes, I love it.

The entire point of the OP is that the win rate is irrelevant, because it takes into account low level lee sin players.

Your entire post is that the win rates on champion.gg, where he has a low winrate are taken from what can only be called experienced and skilled lee sin players.

Yet people downvote you because they have what appears to be an irrational and incorrect view, and your comment is a piece of evidence that could prove their insecurities wrong.

ACENOXJan 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Lol the downvotes, I love it.

The entire point of the OP is that the win rate is irrelevant, because it takes into account low level lee sin players.

Your entire post is that the win rates on champion.gg, where he has a low winrate are taken from what can only be called experienced and skilled lee sin players.

Yet people downvote you because they have what appears to be an irrational and incorrect view, and your comment is a piece of evidence that could prove their insecurities wrong.

No my point is that lee win rate is relevant, because both bad lee sin and good lee sin are playing him, unlike other 55% win rate champs with low pick rate which shows that only skilled people are playing those champs (Meddler). And like people said, people with 100 game with lee stil don't have 50% win rate

ParoeJan 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No my point is that lee win rate is relevant, because both bad lee sin and good lee sin are playing him, unlike other 55% win rate champs with low pick rate which shows that only skilled people are playing those champs (Meddler). And like people said, people with 100 game with lee stil don't have 50% win rate

If a champion has 10,000 games in a day, and 4800 of those are wins then thats a MUCH heavier amount than say someone who gets 100 games a day and has 52 wins. thats really just... logic. at 10,000 games you would honestly expect the winrate for be high thirties if the champion was balanced.

that being said lee is a "jack of trades" just like nidalee - his kit, scaling, and utility are beyond ginormous. He is capable in all roles; and it seems riot wants lee to BE a jack of trades... the problem with being a jack of trades is that youre never not useful. your damage might suffer, but you will never be useless as long as youre treading water.

Got New GlassesJan 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

If a champion has 10,000 games in a day, and 4800 of those are wins then thats a MUCH heavier amount than say someone who gets 100 games a day and has 52 wins. thats really just... logic. at 10,000 games you would honestly expect the winrate for be high thirties if the champion was balanced.

that being said lee is a "jack of trades" just like nidalee - his kit, scaling, and utility are beyond ginormous. He is capable in all roles; and it seems riot wants lee to BE a jack of trades... the problem with being a jack of trades is that youre never not useful. your damage might suffer, but you will never be useless as long as youre treading water.

No, a balanced champ should win 50% of their game no matter what size of players you took they should lose as much games as they win, they shouldn't all win 52 games no matter of number of games they did. You talk about logic, when riot themselves said a long time ago that they aim for 50% win rate, not 30%.

i'm not defending lee because i find him overwhelming but that's not logic that you have here.

ParoeJan 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=2eri 6weel,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MMMpjpYK,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-21T08:33:58.954+0000)

No, a balanced champ should win 50% of their game no matter what size of players you took they should lose as much games as they win, they shouldn't all win 52 games no matter of number of games they did. You talk about logic, when riot themselves said a long time ago that they aim for 50% win rate, not 30%.

i'm not defending lee because i find him overwhelming but that's not logic that you have here.

As the sample size increases, the positive outcome should decrease. As sample size decreases, the positive outcome should increase.

If youre at 50% with 10,000 games theres a MASSIVE problem there.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 21, 20165 votes

{quoted}

As the sample size increases, the positive outcome should decrease. As sample size decreases, the positive outcome should increase.

If youre at 50% with 10,000 games theres a MASSIVE problem there.

No, just No idk from where you took those rules

if you're at 50% with 10 000 games, it means you lost as much game as you won. period

Dar RaksadaJan 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No, just No idk from where you took those rules

if you're at 50% with 10 000 games, it means you lost as much game as you won. period

It depends if it's meant to be a hard to play champ. If everyone can do well with the champ (50% winrate over 100000) games. When the champ is meant to be a high skillcap champion that can mean there's a problem.*

*Not saying there's a problem with Lee.

TransgressorJan 21, 20161 votes

No, a balanced champ should win 50% of their game no matter what size of players you took they should lose as much games as they win

Well that's just logically wrong. By the laws that govern our universe, this just doesn't apply. Because you can't "average" human beings. We're not machines to have a set amount of variables. We're unpredictable and inconsistent. That's why the bigger your sample size, the easier it is to draw a proper conclusion.

And that's just for a single region. Move to another, let's say Turkey for example, and players there might be the best LeeSins on-average, on the planet. Your logic still doesn't apply, your sample size has a whole different average.

What Riot aims for doesn't matter. If 100 players play 1 champion, ever, and 3 of them happen to have diarrhea and lose the game, that doesn't mean the champion is weak. Sorry, it's just how it is. If your sample size however, is 100,000, you can even have room for exclusions like diarrhea, outside of your balance ratio(e.g. 45% lost, 52% won, 3% had to go take a shit).

And realistically speaking, those sample sizes are stupendously small; 100,000 games get played every 5 minutes. That makes the sample size massive.

Sire HippingtonJan 21, 201610 votes

The interesting thing is that, at plat+, less has a ~46%winrate, but with ~114 the Average Games Played per Player Only ~12% off the lee players have played him less than 15 times. And even for those with over 125 games, which certainly aren't noob-Lees, his winrate is only ~47%.

If we look at swain with his low pickrate, 36% of the swains in plat+ have below 15games on him, so he has a way higher 'noob' ratio than lee, despite beeing way less popular. though he has a bit heigher Average Games Played per Player with 123. Also, 40% of swain players have more than 50 games on him, while for lee it's 60%...

Going by those numbers, lee actually has less noobs playing him than swain in comparision. Lee actually IS not that strong atm in terms of totall power in soloQ.

However, that doesn't mean that he isn't a poorly tuned bastard with an absurd early game that therefor drops inanely hard if he doesn't snowball. I'm not saying lee isn't annoying and doesn't need changes, but in terms of raw power, he's on the weaker side right now.

SkiasJan 21, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MMMpjpYK,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-01-21T02:24:51.766+0000)

The interesting thing is that, at plat+, less has a ~46%winrate, but with ~114 the Average Games Played per Player Only ~12% off the lee players have played him less than 15 times. And even for those with over 125 games, which certainly aren't noob-Lees, his winrate is only ~47%.

If we look at swain with his low pickrate, 36% of the swains in plat+ have below 15games on him, so he has a way higher 'noob' ratio than lee, despite beeing way less popular. though he has a bit heigher Average Games Played per Player with 123. Also, 40% of swain players have more than 50 games on him, while for lee it's 60%...

Going by those numbers, lee actually has less noobs playing him than swain in comparision. Lee actually IS not that strong atm in terms of totall power.

However, that doesn't mean that he isn't a poorly tuned bastard with an absurd early game that therefor drops inanely hard if he doesn't snowball. I'm not saying lee isn't annoying and doesn't need changes, but in terms of raw power, he's on the weaker side right now.

I agree with you, I would add that a great part of his success comes from his lack of a weakness. Hes never in a situation he doesnt have a tool or two to deal with, or come out on top.

rtbf223219960Jan 21, 20164 votes

I'm not saying lee isn't annoying and doesn't need changes, but in terms of raw power, he's on the weaker side right now.

Been living under a rock? Also, you said he falls off if he doesn't get ahead. That's untrue. He doesn't have time to fall off with how fast games are finishing now.

Sire HippingtonJan 21, 20163 votes

if not ahead, he starts to drop after lvl 9, and most games i play atleast go that long. Actually, most comebacks i've seen were vs lee.

RetillinJan 21, 20161 votes

He doesn't "fall off". He changes. From an assassin early to a utility/tank later. That's just how people build him. If you only got two offensive items on Rengar and then went full tank people would say he "falls off late" as well. He can build full AD and not "fall off late", but people are smart enough to know you can't carry as a lower income assassin late.

So again, his role changes and people think that means he falls off.

Sire HippingtonJan 21, 20162 votes

changeing role does not mean he doesn't fall off. Yes, he usually turns into a utillity tank later on, just that he doesn't have alot utillity nor big aoe damage. As a tank, actuall tanks simply outclass him, which causes him to fall of in comparison. If a nautilus or amumu jungle survives early without falling behind lee, he will simply have way more impact in teamfights in generall.

He's not turning in to a utillity tank because he scales that well as tank, but because going agressive if behind leaves him rather usless, so it's simpoly the lesser evil.

RetillinJan 21, 20161 votes

And that's the fault of Riot. Lee Sin is tagged as Fighter/Assassin. Yet he isn't played that way. It's like MrOink when he ran Sejuani as an Burst Mage mid. Of course it's not going to work well. But if Riot is dead set on making Lee Sin the jack of all trades, nobody can be blame for playing him the best way he is played. Assassin lane pressure early, engage/disengage late. Is he worse than Naut or Amummu full 6 time team fights? Eh, maybe/maybe not. His ult can protect his carry very well. Really depends on team set ups. (ie Amummu is a lot weaker with a non aoe team)

The problem is, people want to play Lee as he is played early game all game. But they don't want to have to build full dmg (on the fighter/assassin) so Riot gives Lee % dmg execute and % dmg aoe knock back on tanks into teams to let him feel that way.

Riot treats him with kid's gloves. Because at the end of the day they want everyone to have their cake and eat it too when playing Lee.

Until Riot sits down and finally decides what Lee is supposed to do, he's going to be too good overall with little to no weakness. Lee doesn't have a "defined" weakness that Riot goes on and on about champions having. He's a fun, but badly designed champion. One of those that is given everything to make them "interesting".

Handin Out NapsJan 21, 20163 votes

I just hope more people begin to realise this so they can understand low playrate does not mean "only played by mains".

The Voids CallJan 21, 20163 votes

To be fair, lee sin doesn't have to have a 50%> win rate to be broken. The design of the champion just feels bad to play against. Even if a lee sin isn't good enough to carry the game, it takes almost no skill to effectively 1v1 with him. He just uses raw mechanical advantage to always have to initiative in the fight.

You always feel like you are at the mercy of how mechanically skilled the enemy lee sin is, rather than possibly having the skill to mechanically out play him.

To use chess as an analogy, it's like playing with nothing but white tile bishops, but trying to kill an enemy queen. Until the enemy queen makes the mistake, you have literally no way to initiate a winning play. Yes you can try to bait the queen into exposing herself, but if the player is good enough, then you can't expect such a bait to ever work.

Ren ExJan 21, 20161 votes

I'll need to run the numbers again, but, iirc, Lee Sin has some of the highest total base damage and highest scaling of all AD based champions. I know Wukong has him beat in scaling, but that's purely because of his ultimate.

Couple this with the fact that he has 2 gap closers, CC, buffs, shield, sustain, AND is in the second highest movement speed tier baseline, it gets to be pretty ridiculous.

Either Lee needs to be forced to build damage to deal damage, or his scalings need to be gutted so that he stops 1-rotating ADCs with just his jungle item at level 11

ømgJan 21, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ren Ex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MMMpjpYK,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-01-21T11:00:14.367+0000)

I'll need to run the numbers again, but, iirc, Lee Sin has some of the highest total base damage and highest scaling of all AD based champions. I know Wukong has him beat in scaling, but that's purely because of his ultimate.

Couple this with the fact that he has 2 gap closers, CC, buffs, shield, sustain, AND is in the second highest movement speed tier baseline, it gets to be pretty ridiculous.

Either Lee needs to be forced to build damage to deal damage, or his scalings need to be gutted so that he stops 1-rotating ADCs with just his jungle item at level 11

AD scaling is the single most important factor in winning a game.

Listing what a champion's spells do proves that the champion is op.

Squishies getting killed by champions that build damage is unheard of.

EcchiOtakuTMJan 21, 20162 votes

They just need to lower lee's MVT to 325 and he'll be more for the dedicated then just some pick up and play all-arounder for any team comp.

Only Play DariusJan 21, 20162 votes

the mains (150+ games) still barely get 50% w/r

Ren ExJan 21, 20162 votes

I honestly don't care about winrates, or pick rates, or anything like that.

I just know that, as a Jungle main, Lee Sin is fucking bullshit to deal with.

He just does everything, way too well, for how forgiving his entire kit actually is. There's no drawback, ever, to playing him. And there really isn't much outplay you can do against him, thanks to just how much fuckery he can pull.

I get it, Lee does take time to learn how to play. His fancier combos require some serious coordination, and not everyone can do that. But, come on, he shouldn't be allowed to build Wrriors and a single damage item, and literally 2 shot an ADC/Mid, without even burning all of his spells. Everyone complains about Rengar, but at least he has to build damage to assassinate. Lee just QRQs.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 21, 20161 votes

pretty much this and it's also the reason that prevents thresh from being nerfed

Got New GlassesJan 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

pretty much this and it's also the reason that prevents thresh from being nerfed

thresh and lee are both champs viable in a lot of situation, that's why they have a high pick rate in both pro and in solo queue. But thresh has a worse engage than Malphite Leona Nautilus , while lee... i fail to see what part of his kit is inferior to other jungler. maybe it's tankiness but if he builds tank he does 1000 damage to your carry if he kicks the tank into him.

SkiasJan 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=2eri 6weel,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MMMpjpYK,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-01-21T00:36:34.282+0000)

thresh and lee are both champs viable in a lot of situation, that's why they have a high pick rate in both pro and in solo queue. But thresh has a worse engage than , while lee... i fail to see what part of his kit is inferior to other jungler. maybe it's tankiness but if he builds tank he does 1000 damage to your carry if he kicks the tank into him.

Their kits are super broad and are good with every comp. That is why they easily adapt. Even being jack of all trades, they dont pay for their broad power with weakness. They are fantastic at most things for their role.

MunchCrunchLunchJan 21, 20161 votes

most people are in bottom brackets which means lower winrate the more people play him.

Photos of GhostsJan 21, 20161 votes

No. Lower brackets don't have low winrates because they play against each other.

MunchCrunchLunchJan 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MMMpjpYK,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-01-21T13:19:22.162+0000)

No. Lower brackets don't have low winrates because they play against each other.

but when they a champion that requires skill they are not as good obviously.

TransgressorJan 21, 20161 votes

We need to talk about LEE and win rate

Do we though? No, we don't really. You do you though.

"high win rate champ doesn't mean anything if the pick rate is low" according to meddler, OK since a low pick rate will reduce the sample of players and their main tend to win a lot with the champ. Ok nothing wrong

Appart from the fact that Swain got nerfs despite his very low play-rate. And that Zilean has THE HIGHEST winrate in mid lane, one of THE LOWEST pickrates, and still hasn't been touched for months now. So automatically this is invalid

"lee sin win rate doesn't mean anything, because his pick rate is high" the fuck is this arg? it's because his pick rate is high that both lee sin mains and noob lee sin are taken in account, if the outcome makes a <50% win rate it means that he isn't broken since ALL lvl of the champ are playing him.

This was painfull to read. Appart from that, LeeSin is a champion that's very fun to play and requires a fair bit amount of mechanical skill to master. Thanks to that, he's picked alot by players who want to have fun, or are crap at the game and want to be Insecs. Which subsequently drops his winrate despite him being rather strong. Same with Yasuo.

That doesn't mean he's not problematic. The fact that he gets picked by shitty players which fail at him(and generaly the game), subsequently lowering his winrate, doesn't mean he's not strong/overtuned/cancer to play against/extremely effective at the hands of his mains.

get it? now get over it.

I didn't get jack shit. Your post was painfull to read, badly formatted and generaly didn't really make sense. And bottom line, I'll do whatever the fuck I want.

AhristocatsJan 21, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Do we though? No, we don't really. You do you though.

Appart from the fact that Swain got nerfs despite his very low play-rate. And that Zilean has THE HIGHEST winrate in mid lane, one of THE LOWEST pickrates, and still hasn't been touched for months now. So automatically this is invalid

This was painfull to read. Appart from that, LeeSin is a champion that's very fun to play and requires a fair bit amount of mechanical skill to master. Thanks to that, he's picked alot by players who want to have fun, or are crap at the game and want to be Insecs. Which subsequently drops his winrate despite him being rather strong. Same with Yasuo.

That doesn't mean he's not problematic. The fact that he gets picked by shitty players which fail at him(and generaly the game), subsequently lowering his winrate, doesn't mean he's not strong/overtuned/cancer to play against/extremely effective at the hands of his mains.

I didn't get jack shit. Your post was painfull to read, badly formatted and generaly didn't really make sense. And bottom line, I'll do whatever the fuck I want.

K?

tl:dr "lee sin is broken on people who mastered him"

right like any champ in the game

TransgressorJan 21, 20162 votes

right like any champ in the game

Warwick Taric Aatrox Galio Mordekaiser Yorick Urgot

Did I rustle your jimmies boy?

D357R0Y3RJan 21, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Did I rustle your jimmies boy?

what's wrong?, all the champ you listed are as strong as lee if you main them. There is an urgot main in challenger with 77% win rate with him. I have a friend that never lost by his fault with taric (nearly)

TransgressorJan 21, 20162 votes

Nothing's wrong in particular mate.

He generalized. I gave a bunch of examples that are generally in a bad spot, no matter how good you are in the game as well as them. They are either in need of buffs, or their identity just doesn't fit in the game at its current state. But saying they are as strong as Lee is just wrong, because if they really were healthy they'd see at least a higher amount of play among other things.

Exclusions do apply, but exceptions exist to confirm the rules.

D357R0Y3RJan 21, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Nothing's wrong in particular mate.

He generalized. I gave a bunch of examples that are generally in a bad spot, no matter how good you are in the game as well as them. They are either in need of buffs, or their identity just doesn't fit in the game at its current state. But saying they are as strong as Lee is just wrong, because if they really were healthy they'd see at least a higher amount of play among other things.

Exclusions do apply, but exceptions exist to confirm the rules.

they are in a bad spot, doesn't mean that you can't be good with them, lee isn't an exception, every champ decent or bad can be good if you master them. example: Best rengar Na was still playing rengar despite all the nerfs in season 2 that made the champ useless. So if lee sin mains are strong with lee sin, it doesn't mean that lee sin is op

Photos of GhostsJan 21, 20161 votes

You don't get it. Lee Sin's winrate doesn't matter because his pickrate is enough of a problem on its own. Not because his pickrate prevents from doing statistical assumptions on his balance.

KONO RUBICK DAJan 21, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MMMpjpYK,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-01-21T13:16:26.481+0000)

You don't get it. Lee Sin's winrate doesn't matter because his pickrate is enough of a problem on its own. Not because his pickrate prevents from doing statistical assumptions on his balance.

you will be pleased, you will win 4% more games than you will lose against lee sin doesn't matter what is his pick rate.

free elo

Dominick DestineJan 21, 20161 votes

Lee sin is broken and needs nerfs.

9kPluzZJan 21, 20161 votes

omg, lee-sin is not op. Its pretty fucking obvious by now. please stop this circle jerking. And it doesn't work like that you can't just exclude all the noobs from only lee's winrate. How is that fucking fair?

Sneakyy XDJan 21, 20161 votes

Or we could just not use win rate at all since it has no relevance to a champion's strength

fééd l0rdJan 21, 20161 votes

Platin players with over 125 games on lee sin tend to have a winrate below 50%. Explain.

FrickendaChickenJan 21, 20161 votes

You can't just look at Win rate and let that be the end of it. You have to look at multiple different kinds of win rates.

Win rates per games played- how much better do the players get when playing the champion a large amount over those that just pick them up. Lee Sin's number for this is very large.

Win rates per how long the game lasts- how high is their winrate on how long the game lasts. Lee's is lowered drastically depending on how long the game goes on.

All of these together tell you the overall strengths of a champion, how difficult they actually are, and when they are strongest.

If you just look at base win rate you lose a lot of information on why it is so high.