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Balancing around CDR is a mistake, because it will end up like Flash.

TheThundersRoar··155 votes·7,194 views

With Fizz eating the (well-deserved) E cooldown nerf because of CDR, what the balance team is saying is that he is expected to build CDR. And it's true. Its heavy abundance in every type of build since the MYMU and preseason means he's likely going to build it.

But that means that the game is now starting to get balanced around CDR, and that's the same poor design choice made with Flash. If a champion is expected to build CDR because he's running into it everywhere, and takes a cooldown nerf because of that expectation, then he's basically forced into building that CDR to make up for that loss.

CDR is currently a side stat that you randomly find on a lot of items, rather than being a stat that you deliberately build for. This is a problem.

The end result is that items without CDR become less and less viable. Items like IE and Deathcap become less and less common, because champions have to first build Cleaver and Morello. **CDR shouldn't be a side stat on so many items. ** Pretty much every build path under the sun has CDR in it.

Assassin: item 3142 item 3812 item 3100 Fighter: item 3071 item 3078 item 3025 ADC: item 3508 item 3508 item 3508 Tank: item 3065 item 3110 item 3083 Mage: item 3165 item 3157 item 3115 item 3001 item 3174 Support: item 3092 item 3069 item 3401 item 3190 item 3222 item 3060 item 3056 item 3504 item 3050 All: item 3158

If you're running into CDR in every build, and they start nerfing cooldowns because of that, then building it on almost everyone will be necessary to function. And we'll end up like Flash.

IMO, CDR should be a limited and deliberate stat to build. You shouldn't be running into CDR everywhere, you should be running into CDR when you specifically buy a big CDR item.

114 Comments

Critmaster Garen44 votes

the thing is, cdr is the multiplicative stat for ablity scaling champs, just as attack speed and crit are the multiplicative stats for auto attack based champs.

since spell scaling champs are so diverse, basically being everywhere from fighters, tanks, mages, assassins to supports, its no surprise that its such a prevalent stat.

auto attack based champs are actually only a small portion of the champion pool compared to them.

the only item that i personally disagree with granting cdr is item 3508 because i dont see a reason why marksmen should have access to the stat in the same build as crit and attack speed. like already mentioned, its a caster specific stat. if a marksman wants to itemize into a caster build, he should be forced to pick items like the old essence reaver, that makes him sacrifice an item slot for cdr in place of crit or attack speed.

item 3078 could probably be the attack speed fighter item and i wouldnt mind the cdr being removed from it either. it could make sense to replace item 3101 with item 1043 and remove at least 10% cdr in exchange for making triforce cheaper.

item 3071 is an item specifically designed for spell scaling fighters. so in this case it always made sense for the item to have cdr. the same is true for many mage and tank items.

if anything, i think items should be separated into caster specific items with cdr, and auto attack specific items with crit or attack speed again. riot has blurred the line between sustained damage carries and casters way too much with champions like lucian.

Pika Fox3 votes

"riot has blurred the line between sustained damage carries and casters way too much with champions like lucian."

Pretty sure you mean Ezreal. And hes been in the game longer than most players.

Critmaster Garen17 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MJuoezWn,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2016-06-15T11:18:31.567+0000)

"riot has blurred the line between sustained damage carries and casters way too much with champions like lucian."

Pretty sure you mean Ezreal. And hes been in the game longer than most players.

ezreal doesnt scale with crit.

he usually either focuses on cdr, or on a carry build. besides. its not like he wasnt overpowered multiple times for his caster/carry kit and mobility.

Theiki Kayle3 votes

Release Runeglaive/preseason IBG NEVERFORGET.

Vistha Kai4 votes

Spirit of the Elder Lizard.

Theiki Kayle14 votes

Ezreal, the Prodigal Abuser.

Westonbirt3 votes

It's the nature of an ability that procs on hit effect. It's like damage scaling off health, it breaks items.

magic pole2 votes

the only item that i personally disagree with granting cdr is because i dont see a reason why marksmen should have access to the stat in the same build as crit and attack speed.

agreed. this is what broke lucian.

SnowFall2 votes

[{quoted}](name=magic pole,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MJuoezWn,comment-id=00010003,timestamp=2016-06-15T12:53:07.350+0000)

agreed. this is what broke lucian.

item 3142 item 3071 broke lucian

Voluug132 votes

Lucian broke Lucian

Kuroi864 votes

Thresh Broke Lucian

kile1476 votes

Trinity can't really be the AS fighter item because it has spellblade. If you really want to focus solely on autos then AS is the way to go, but spellblade becomes less useful because you are interrupting more AA's to cast a spell. Jax works well with Trinity because he likes all the stats, plus he has a low cooldown AA reset that makes using spellblade very efficient. Xin doesn't like Trinity as much because despite being an AA reliant fighter he doesn't actually need spellblade and instead functions better with on-hit/tanky items.

Dengeden2 votes

But that's really annoying for medium range AD casters. Their abilities don't crit, so they'd prefer flat AD early game but crit scales better so obviously, they'd want that too... dangit. Balance aside, they'd never reach the fantasy their kit entails without ER.

Another thing, as you said, CDR and AS are multipliers, which means they don't do much without some base values to back them up. That's why they're such a convenient stat for Riot. They don't offer immense powerspikes, they only serve to set them up.

Sire Hippington21 votes

agree, though it's also worth noting that most fizz players aimed for max cdr befor as well, so bringing it now as excuse for the cdr nerf seems shallow.

LankPants9 votes

Fizz's Playful/Trickster has needed this for a long time, people have been calling for a CD nerf on it at least as far back as S4, I seem to remember some in S3 as well. I don't disagree with you but in Fizz's case this is completely justified.

ComatosePhoenix9 votes

Remove CDR from items, give all skills better cooldowns with level.

Laereth5 votes

{quoted}

Remove CDR from items, give all skills better cooldowns with level.

I think you are on something.

Velzard of Koz7 votes

He exaggorated, but that's quite what it's becoming. Meddler has already stated they want CDR to be accessible on every role easily, so they'll bring even more CDR into items with roster updates (juggernaut fighters, marksmen and mages are already done). If CDR will become so easy to get for everyone, instead of being "choice to do", it will bring more "meta" builds without diversity and it will be nearly as If CDR scaled with level, because the progress would be guaranteed and required, rather than conditional.

If all CDR items had proper trade-off it might be better, but some builds are simply effective line you would build anyway (like Yomummu, Death Dance, Cleaver; Reaver + Crits...) but now gives free 40% CDR alongside it.

I'd rather have "natural limits" of maximum CDR roles can build naturally without trade-off (like 15% for ADC, 20% for Fighters, 25% for Tanks, 30% for Slayers and 40% for Mages/Enchanters). Building more than that would be possible (well except for Mages because 40% is buildable capacity) but would bring some trade-off. Less attack speed and crits, less raw damage, less defense/sustain/utility.

Voluug133 votes

The only problem of ''natural limits for CDR'' is that you have adcs that are basically half adc and half AD caster like Varus.

I mean, the other thing could be to make buffs accordingly for each special case, like Varus, Urgod, and so on.

Kuroi862 votes

We have a mastery that increases the CDR cap by 5% and certain Riot has mentioned item ideas in the past that could increase the CDR cap by as much as 10% (pretty sure it was either an AP or support item).

Velzard of Koz1 votes

Do you have link for that? Wasn't it too old and didn't they change their plans? It sounds interesting.

As for Mastery: I didn't count it since I understand it as a bonus merely for everyone, positioned in a tree to limit it for certain roles, but still general bonus.

Kuroi862 votes

I'll try looking but I'm not hopeful. I've tried looking before and it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. I remember it was in the news section on this site. A red had posted a bunch of item ideas that he had considered way back when there were first talks of a mage update, probably a year ago now. There were a number of changed and even new items spoken of in it including an item that gave 10% cdr and would increase your cdr cap by 10%. I always remember that article because it had an idea that would reintroduce Runic Bulwark into the game which I miss sorely.

The Yetii Rider9 votes

CDR is just necessary for supports to have. The large majority of power in a support's kit is not damage or healing, it's crowd control. And the best crowd control (stun, Polymorph, knock up) does not have a potency that can scale with AP. So naturally, supports scale by being able to use their abilities multiple times.

Fizz's E is another example of this. The power comes from repeat casting of the ability, not AD or AP. So CDR is a stronger stat on him.

I don't think the majority of champions will need to be balanced around this (obviously every support is balanced around 40% CDR, but in exchange all their items get it). You shouldn't worry too much about it.

Also fuck Fizz.

Dominick Destine8 votes

Fizz got love taps.... barely even nerfs.

Swain is getting legit gutted.

spombjop1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MJuoezWn,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-06-15T06:15:29.070+0000)

Fizz got love taps.... barely even nerfs.

Swain is getting gutted. Sona is getting gutted, those are real nerfs.

fizz was gutted in s4 remember?

remember Q nerf and removal of ap ratio on W and grievous wounds, they later returned ap ratio on W because he wasn't even viable AP

this E nerf will force fizz to max W in next patches

Cuoco Diavolo3 votes

{quoted}

fizz was gutted in s4 remember?

remember Q nerf and removal of ap ratio on W and grievous wounds, they later returned ap ratio on W because he wasn't even viable AP

this E nerf will force fizz to max W in next patches

he currently maxes w second for extra damage he just got straight up nerfed

FascistIguana1 votes

what happened to swain?

issheapotato5 votes

On pbe, they're killing his r. 30 second CD if you cancel the channel. I hope they remove that tbh.

Atanchan1 votes

30 seconds isn't that long for an ultimate, keep in mind. It's certainly a meaningful cooldown and will definitely impact him, but at the same time it's less aimed at making him weaker and more making it so that you're more absolute with your ultimate usage ( so you have to make sure that when you turn it on, you're entirely willing to commit keeping it on ).

It also allows it to be baited, so you can have one teammate engage on him, get him to turn it on, have the teammate disengage, wait for Swain to turn it off to prevent mana wasting, then gank him.

issheapotato6 votes

I mean...I like to think of swain's ult as something of toggle, or channel, like Anivia's ult which has a CD of 6 seconds.

This completely changes Swain's playstyle in a negative way for most people who actively play or enjoy Swain.

Sure, Swain may need to be nerfed, but this is the wrong way to do it? He doesn't need counterplay on ult toggle, they should just have it drain mana faster or perhaps lower the numbers. But changing his entire play style as a way to "balance" him is fucking stupid.

Atanchan1 votes

Does changing the ability's cast type really change Swain's entire playstyle? Honestly, the only things that I've really see talked about how this'll change him, playstyle-wise, is what I mentioned and the fact that he can cull the mana cost by intentionally deactivating the ultimate during a skirmish, kiting for a bit, then turning it back on. And while those are certainly factors to mastery with the champion, they don't really seem that essential.

The whole thing about Swain is that he likes sitting on people. That's entirely what his ultimate is about, after all; he stays on someone and they just die if they can't get him off of them. Similarly, his Q is basically a pet that does the same thing but can't stick to someone, although it help keep the target from getting away in the first place. His W's a root, which means that not only can they not try to run away from Swain, but his Q is also free to get off its damage without them just walking away. And, well, his E doesn't exactly fit this mold, but it's a DoT and amplifies the damage Swain does so it still fits. Even his innate fits the bill - he's very mana hungry, but due to his constant AoE damage he'll kill minions incidentally, keeping him stocked up as long as he's killing something. Which is nicely extendable into something that you can utilize for lane sustain through the much more precise last hitting, and extra functionality allows him to snowball through a fight if he's successful at taking down an actual champion.

So it's rather hard to see a 20 second cooldown increase as really killing the playstyle, considering his ult isn't a something you have to constantly cast and the damage and healing you get from it are still the same. All this does is make it so the windows after you have to or want of turn it off are larger, so - like I said - you have to be more absolute with your ult usage.

Incidentally, writing all this up made me realize that Swain is actually League's version of Necrophos, between the sustain - including health, with Necro's passive - from incidentally killing stuff and constant AoE damage. It's always pretty neat when less obvious comparisons between characters of different MOBAs come to light.

issheapotato2 votes

I've played Swain, you really don't need to write that much about what his kit does. The thing is, if you have to drop your ult for any reason or have it baited, even though 30 seconds may seem "low," you won't have it for the rest of the fight. You can call that counterplay if you want but that's not the counterplay Swain needs at all? There's other, more effective nerfs that could trim off Swain's excess power without completely altering how you play the champion.

Like I was so excited to play Swain once he became meta again, and now I have no interest in playing him. His ult is a toggle, not a "spell" that's cast for a single effect. There's no reason for a CD longer than 10 seconds.

Also what you said "doesn't seem essential" is literally how you play Swain. That's his entire play style. You can't do what he likes to do, sit on people, if they run from you or cause you to break your ult, then you're gone and worthless for 30 seconds without it. All of his spells are set up for his ult. Without his toggle on, he's useless, might as well be dead.

manbearswine5 votes

I disagree with the reasoning, but I agree that cdr is too much of a given at the moment, when it should be a choice.

Nahath5 votes

Strongly agree. This isn't about Fizz, he's just an example. It's about the difference between meaningful choices (Do I build a Cho'gath with a super burst or one who can be more disruptive in team fights?) to one where he will be balanced based on having 40% CDR because almost any half-intelligent build will get you there whether you were trying to or not.

Before, I thought it was fun to surprise people with high-CDR on champs who don't normally build it, but now that hitting 40% as standard procedure, it's no longer much of a choice.

Kinetika4 votes

Holy hell - a post that makes sense while not coming across as a bitchfest.

I don't agree with the statement that items are becoming less viable (many champs don't benefit that much from CDR), but otherwise I think you are absolutely correct. CDR is over used and available too often....it should be a CHOICE with drawbacks rather than a built-in stat on a plethora of items.

For example Zhonyas, Abyssal, and Triforce should NOT give CDR in my opinion... They each have plenty of utility without the CDR

UB3R 1337 H4X2 votes

I'll give you Zhonya and Abyssal but I think Triforce is justified, although it is meant to be a marksman item nowadays it was still supposed to be the item that did it all.

Voluug133 votes

Actually the crit removal was specifically aimed to remove it (or at least alienate it) from the ADC itembuilding, since most ADCs are heavily crit dependant right now, while the better attack speed and CDR benefits bruisers/toplaners more.

Jasiwel4 votes

While I can see the point, I'd argue it has been this way since Season 2. In fact, Riot reduced the amount of CDR floating around for a couple of seasons (Season 4, 5), then returned it with Season 6.

CDR has always been a necessity on a plethora of champions. Just like some of said in this thread, it's an essential utility stat like ATK Speed that people will naturally buy simply because your abilities return faster.

Balancing should, at least to an extent, have CDR in mind because CDR is extremely powerful even in smaller quantities. At the same time, CDR is a great avenue for gameplay and allowing champions/abilities to retain a particular design, to be used as a consistent tool rather than a climactic notion every time.

Vik4prez4 votes

This is the case with a lot of the item design philosophies in this game. I would personally much prefer a system in which meaningful choices can be made game to game in regards to stat prioritization, but instead the game is just full of items that provide access to multiple ideal stats in large quantities.

There is a small amount of this on certain champions, such as a few ADCs that can build two attack speed items instead of just one and get away with it, but I would prefer a world where most champions/classes could make those kinds of decisions based on how the game is panning out.

I feel like this happens with most games these days though, though im not sure what the effect is called (stat creep perhaps?), and most of the time its a major detriment to game health. I remember in WoW how stats on gear just started higher and higher and higher with every tier/expansion that it became almost laughable. That's not to say that in a game such as WoW there should never be meaningful stat increases on gear; after all, there needs to be some incentive to push the latest content, but the increases in the stats just started getting more and more extreme and now youre left with a world where people can easily deal hundreds of thousands of points of damage with a single attack. Its just absurd.

Arakk014 votes

They aren't nerfing around CDR being more common. They're nerfing around CDR being added to CORE ITEMS in a specific champ's build. Because Fizz wouldn't be the cancer he is without the Zhonyas-E combo, for example. Before, item 3157 item 3001 were pretty core on him but offered 0% CDR. Now, he still builds both but gets 20% CDR. item 3100 brings him to 30% where he'd be at 10% before MSM. item 3158 aren't much of a stretch, and suddenly his E is on a 4.8 second cooldown with no tradeoffs- he was going to build basically all of those items anyway.

Sir Fuzzi4 votes

I can at least say crit and CDR should never be on one item. They're sort of opposites, they need to stay that way.

CDR should take up a large amount of the item's power budget, and they should be a deliberate build; building X should be because of the CDR for the most part.

Of course, we could keep nerfing more mobility on assassins. We're going in a good direction with that one, too.

Lucifer3 votes

Rabadon's in general just needs help. It's way too expensive. It's been a long time since I've seen a death cap / void staff rush, which used to be pretty standard.

TurquoiseYoshi4 votes

I wouldn't say that Death Cap needs help just because it's not the optimal first item. It's made to be a later-game 4th-6th item that you get when you just want a lot of AP and have all the CDR/Mana you need.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

If it's your 4th item it still needs a 1700 combine cost due to only being able to sit on NLR + Wand. It's best as a third item imo due to being able to sit on all 3 components for a much easier, but still brutal 1265 combine cost.

TyroneWatermelon3 votes

Well,resourcless tanks don't get much cdr...look at Shen and zac

Nymzo3 votes

Without cdr, how do you want supports to be useful? Basically almost every single assasin has a way to ''cheat'' his cd on his spells.

Akali : She can dash 3 times and she gets one jump on kill or assist Ekko : Low cd on his q and e, not to mention that he's always build cdr Elise : She has 7 spells (but she's difficult to play so that's ok) Evelynn : W resets on kill or assist and her q has almost no cd Fiora : Her q is like 2 sec cd if she hits something Fizz : I don't have to say anything Kassadin : Q short cd, ult almost no cd Katarina : All her spells reset on kill or assist Khazix : E resets on kill or assist, q short cd Kindred : Her w makes her q on like 2 sec cd Leblanc : Her ult allows her to use a stronger version of the previous spell and it's still going on cd while she uses the ult version LeeSin : 4 sec cd on his q if maxed MasterYi : His basic spells reset on kill or assist Nidalee : Pounce is like 4 sec cd with her passif Pantheon : 2 sec cd on spear Rengar : 4 sec cd on q Vayne : q is like 2 sec cd if she hit someone after the dash Twitch : q reset on kill or assist Udyr : lol cd on this guy? Yasuo : He doesn't even need cdr, as gives him less cd on q

PhDs Nuts4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sorry I amFrench,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MJuoezWn,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2016-06-15T16:58:52.205+0000)

Without cdr, how do you want supports to be useful? Basically almost every single assasin has a way to ''cheat'' his cd on his spells.

Not sure what you're getting at. Supports don't get resets when they interrupt an assassin or someone with lower cooldowns. Once they're on CD they're on CD. That can be balanced without CDR being on items.

Nymzo4 votes

If CDR would cease to exist, they would have to change the cd on the support's spells. Otherwise, it would be an issue.

If all our spells is on cd while an assasin is about to kill the adc, we are in trouble. Notice that all spells that reset on assasins are almost all gap closers.

The only support spell that has 3 sec cdr is thresh's q with almost max cdr, but even 3 sec is more than enough for an assasin to killing a carry.

That's my point, if they remove cdr, they would either have to change the cd on support's spells or remove (or nerf) the reset on kill or assist of most assasins. Otherwise, it would be really hard to peel for the carry.

Azeranth3 votes

Riot is starting to turn into Oprah Winfrey with its CDR on items. I really want to see more thinking required for itemizing. Thus its not so simple to find the "MLG 100% Win rate Koran Lucian builds" or any of the other tag whored YouTube videos I am so tired of seeing people try to play with in solo queue and not adjusting to team comp, enemy team strength, laning needs, position in the game. Builds should be more of a "I need raw AD against this Nasus early game, K now I need some Armor Pen to fight the tanks since we are in mid game, oh now I need some more tank stats myself in order to protect my ADC" I want to see individual items provide larger power spikes but be focused on two or three stats and only a few play styles and game situations. For instance, Warmogs has CDR? why? so Tahm Kench can lick it up more than he does already? if you go full tank Tahm you shouldn't be worried about cdr because of his R passive (Damage scaling with health). If Warmogs, Spirit Visage, and Frozen Heart didn't have CDR it would be great to build straight down that path for matches where the enemy is immobile and a slight lack of chase potential isn't too big of a deal. But when playing against a team where chase is a big deal Tahm may want his licks and devour up far more often. The lack of this requirement for thought is part of the issue, is why Riot has so many balance issues, and why we keep getting the Tank Metas, or the All Essence Reaver Lucians. Itemization is no longer as much of an issue and its making success in a game far more about snowballing and WAY harder to capitalize on the miniature advantages gained during a game.

To help those who prefer an in game example, here is one:

Playing Poppy Top. Doing well. Irelia does many types of damage thus, I can not hope to out tank her like I would against a champion that relies heavily on physically damage. That means I go damage. Take Sheen first item because poppy relies hard on her Q in the early game. However I do not complete the Tri Force because I now have enough of an advantage over Irelia that I don't need the damage now I need tank and escape to survive the frequent ganks that are keeping the enemy fiddlesticks under leveled because he is constantly in my lane not farming. Normally I would build Deadmans Plate next for the move speed and for the tank stats. Its also nice for getting to fights when I am split pushing. However in this game Fizz was getting behind and was unable to tank. As a result I was the tank not split pushing and instead built Randuins for the AA slows against the enemy Tris who had been up to this point the reason Fizz was behind. Next I want Iceborn, Poppy is all about that wall smash auto q auto (q detonate, which is another spell effect) auto and then W so they can't get away and you auto them till they die (or get stunned again). I do want Frozen Heart so I have enough Auto slow that Tris isn't shredding me too hard and I still have a sheen eating up an item slot that I want. Now I have another choice. Irelia's dashes are really annoying because she is split pushing. and using it a lot constantly pulling me away to deal with her. So now I need more CDR and magic resist. How convenient that an item that allows immobile aa based champions to fight magic damage dealing champions with hard cc? Its called Dervish blade and Is exactly the item I need at this time. However Because of the lack of seiging and my ability to now split push because Fizz is back on track I pick up a warmogs for sustain and have my Luc boots for escaping and killing. Next I no longer need the anti dash cool down and my escape from CC and instead pick up an randuins fo multiplicative aa slow because Tris is still snowballing and no I can Fight basically anyone by going in and out of combat repeatedly except for assassins. Fortunately the enemy has no assassins so I do not need CDR or any anti assassin items because of this. I am now heavily into split pushing territory my lack of need for massive CDR allows me to safely pick up a ZZrot, and kill all the towers.

For those who missed everything that happened, I was constantly forced to make decisions about what Items I need I ended up fairly close to my normal poppy build but its different as I almost never get Frozen heart on her. These decisions made me better equipped to handle the enemy at all times and forced others to adjust to me lest they get chased down, stunned and then have all of my team leap upon their faces. By spreading stats out over items makes each item less powerful and removes advantages given by items. Tris went heavy on the AS and Crit, that means I had to adjust to take items that reduced her AS. Stats should be item specific for situations. I needed a Dervish situationally because the magic damage, dashes and CC were making irelia out push me. That time allowed me to stop what she was doing and completely remove her mid game split push threat and prevented the map pressure that would have inhibited out team. Thus allowing me to catch up for muy late game build. items should never be simple and should often be a question of countering.

ForeverLaxx3 votes

I was already complaining about the over-abundance of CDR that they've thrown at every item, to the point that it ends up being completely wasted when trying to counter-build the enemy team. At times, you end up buying 10-20% more CDR than you can even use, wasting gold and stats which just feels bad solely because Riot decided that CDR needs to be on everything.

When CDR is on everything, and you expect players to at least be 25% CDR minimum on all builds, it removes the point of the stat. Remove CDR from items and adjust champion cooldowns (based on level, of course) accordingly. It would actually be easier to balance the roster this way and create real identities for champions that are ability-focused vs those who aren't vs those who have one large high-impact skill.

But good luck getting Riot to see this.

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