The Near Marksmenless Summer

IOffMeta GtOvrIt·Oct 19, 2018·6 votes·2,886 views

Nothing against ADC's but I really had a blast this summer playing unusual picks in the bot lane. Vlad, Irelia, Swain, even Annie had an ADC stint at one point. I don't want marksmen to be totally axed from the game but it would be really neat to allow the game to accommodate for a much deeper variety of picks in the bot lane as long as there is a way to allow marksmen in certain comps. I know Swain, Heimy, and Ziggs survived the summer after they brought back the ad carries but I would love to have more of those picks back to find ways to compete with the basic marksmen comps as well. Just a thought :)

31 Comments

Daddy AntsOct 19, 20186 votes

Bot laners just PREFER to play Marksmen.

No matter how many changes they make to the game, they can't change free will.

If people want to play Marksmen they will play Marksmen.

If I want to play a Mage, I'll queue for mid lane.

IOffMeta GtOvrItOct 19, 20182 votes

I would just like to see even from a competitive standpoint more of those picks in the bot lane as well because the combinations were absolutely endless, I might be in the minority but it was a lot of fun and most people wouldn't kvetch if you made those picks like what a lot of 'outside the box' players endure when marksmen are in meta.

vgamedudeOct 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Bot laners just PREFER to play Marksmen.

No matter how many changes they make to the game, they can't change free will.

If people want to play Marksmen they will play Marksmen.

If I want to play a Mage, I'll queue for mid lane.

Bot picks marksmen's because they are the most powerful and riot has done nothing to enforce a diverse meta in this game. They are the stronger picks. Sustained reliable extremely high damage reigns supreme.

Subject 5Oct 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Bot laners just PREFER to play Marksmen.

No matter how many changes they make to the game, they can't change free will.

If people want to play Marksmen they will play Marksmen.

If I want to play a Mage, I'll queue for mid lane.

But marksman left bottom lane that summers patch, and instead people picked other champions. That was free will. It also shows that they cared more about winning than the actual class.

Marksman attracts people attracted to power ;)

Pika FoxOct 19, 20184 votes

Theyre all still viable.

ShadWoooOct 19, 20182 votes

Depends how you define viable. Surely you can play them in botlane and win lane, but with consecutive buffs to marksmen + stormrazor is it now twice as harder and the moment they have finished stormrazor you basically cannot win without cc chain+ignite+full ability rotation of mage+support together. Marksmen right now can kill mage with 3 aas after they complete stormrazor, in extended fights mages are always in disadvantage because of cooldowns and another thing that benefits marksmen is that they usually have tools to dodge skillshots. Mages' early is in fact quite bad and they are easy to abuse in botlane if you hard push they must use abilities to farm and runs oom very soon. Their early was just bit better than marksmen's around marksmen item rework. And non-marksmen compositions are worse in getting baron and handling super minions. I play these kind of botlanes, sometimes double support as Zilean or Soraka or Veigar as a mage+support or Talon but I mages and enchanters are really bad down there. Talon seems to work quite well though (I almost always get fed in lane, just fail afterwards) and I would bet fighters like Irelia will work as well, but mages feels really terrible in botlane right now. even that heimer isn't anything extra, it is better to play him toplane where he is just obnoxious to deal with than in botlane where is it easier for enemy to kill his turrets...

Pika FoxOct 19, 20182 votes

You can get to master tier maining kat support or AD leblanc, you can get to master as swain/heimer/whatever bot just fine.

OtterlyLostOct 19, 20182 votes

A lot more than just the ones you named survived. ._. Yasuo bot actually has the second highest winrate and Kayle sees bot lane play by mains.

I dont care if there is "diversity" but this summer was honestly the closest I've come to quitting league. Why should people expect bot lane diversity when many marksmen arent allowed to expect lane diversity outside of cheese picks and trolling.

IOffMeta GtOvrItOct 19, 20182 votes

you're absolutely right I forgot to mention those! I just don't see them as often anymore :)

vgamedudeOct 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A lot more than just the ones you named survived. ._. Yasuo bot actually has the second highest winrate and Kayle sees bot lane play by mains.

I dont care if there is "diversity" but this summer was honestly the closest I've come to quitting league. Why should people expect bot lane diversity when many marksmen arent allowed to expect lane diversity outside of cheese picks and trolling.

Are you kidding. Look at pick rates before you say things like this.

Go figure y'all want to quit when any other class archetype sees play bot.

OtterlyLostOct 19, 20182 votes

And? Look at the pick rates of many of the marksmen bot lane. Yasuo bot has a pick rate of 1.5%, which is only slightly behind Ashe at 2.8% and Twitch at 3.01% and his winrate is either equal to or similar to theirs. What is your point here? When ADCs have similar pick rates as someone like Yasuo while also have lower or equal winrates, I'd say that Yasuo bot is pretty darn viable.

Furthermore, Pick Rate clearly doesn't matter to Riot because they're nerfing ASol who has a lower pick rate than Yasuo bot.

vgamedudeOct 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

And? Look at the pick rates of many of the marksmen bot lane. Yasuo bot has a pick rate of 1.5%, which is only slightly behind Ashe at 2.8% and Twitch at 3.01% and his winrate is either equal to or similar to theirs. What is your point here? When ADCs have similar pick rates as someone like Yasuo while also have lower or equal winrates, I'd say that Yasuo bot is pretty darn viable.

Furthermore, Pick Rate clearly doesn't matter to Riot because they're nerfing ASol who has a lower pick rate than Yasuo bot.

Yasuo is one of the few champions DESIGNED for that purpose and he's generally good all around and still isnt picked much down there, and you will not see that in pro games either. His pick rate bot is low enough where it doesn't even show on yasuos page on champ gg. Look at something like kaisa pick rate down bot.

Don't even know where you got that yas stat either.

OtterlyLostOct 20, 20182 votes

Op.gg. And of course you wont see yas bot in a competitive game. You wont see yas period unless he's completely overtuned because he's a selfish champion who brings very little to a competitive team. Not only does his addition essentially require the entire team to play around him and pick around him but he's easy to focus and his being picked means that they are literally strong armed into having a full AD comp.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/yasuo/diamond

10% of yasuo games are played bot lane at diamond and above according to this. Furthermore its I'd highest winrate position. And that's with an overall popularity of 16%.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/ashe/diamond

Ashe has a pick rate of 1% and most of her games are played bot which also happens to be the lane she has the lowest winrate in only after top. Even lower than the 10% of yasuo players who play him bot lane.

When 16% of league players play a champion and 10% of that percentage play him bot lane, I again, reiterate, that he is clearly still viable bot lane.

vgamedudeOct 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Op.gg. And of course you wont see yas bot in a competitive game. You wont see yas period unless he's completely overtuned because he's a selfish champion who brings very little to a competitive team. Not only does his addition essentially require the entire team to play around him and pick around him but he's easy to focus and his being picked means that they are literally strong armed into having a full AD comp.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/yasuo/diamond

10% of yasuo games are played bot lane at diamond and above according to this. Furthermore its I'd highest winrate position. And that's with an overall popularity of 16%.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/ashe/diamond

Ashe has a pick rate of 1% and most of her games are played bot which also happens to be the lane she has the lowest winrate in only after top. Even lower than the 10% of yasuo players who play him bot lane.

When 16% of league players play a champion and 10% of that percentage play him bot lane, I again, reiterate, that he is clearly still viable bot lane.

selfish champion

What do you mean by selfish? That he just contributes damage? There are plenty of adcs like that that see pro use and lots of use.

Also league of graphs doesn't correlate at all with op gg or champ gg. OP gg shows yasuo pick rate at less than 2 percent. Stop focusing on ashe as well. Lucian, ez and kai sa all over 10 PERCENT. Well over pick rate in bot, the highest non adc is heimer at .60 PERCENT! .60!

https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend&roleSort=ADC

OtterlyLostOct 20, 20183 votes

I literally explained how he was a selfish pick in my first paragraph. Please read:

You wont see yas period unless he's completely overtuned because he's a selfish champion who brings very little to a competitive team. Not only does his addition essentially require the entire team to play around him and pick around him but he's easy to focus and his being picked means that they are literally strong armed into having a full AD comp.

If you need it explained for you better, I will literally list the reasons as to why he is a selfish pick.

He requires a team to specifically craft themselves around him; he requires knock ups, peel, people who can engage and peel for him, an AP champion somewhere other than mid(where he will likely go) or either he has to go bot and they have to risk losing long range siege.
He is incredibly easy to focus; experienced junglers will eat him alive as while he is mobile through minions, he is otherwise pretty immobile and has a tendency to push the lane because of the nature of his Q/Nado and the dashy dash through minions
Yes, actually. He only brings damage, unlike many of the ADCs that LCS pros pick(Varus, Cait, Ashe, Tristana, Ezreal, Lucian, Xayah, just to name a few) who bring damage, reliablility, safety(Tristana, Ezreal, Lucian, Xayah can all peel for themselves relatively well while still pumping out damage; they don't have to be in the enemies face and pray they don't die and unless the enemy seriously over commits to them in a fight(which pros can't really afford to do) they don't need to be constantly protected), utility(Varus, Ashe, Cait, Blue Ezreal, Xayah all bring hard cc, zone control, or soft cc and in more reliable amounts than Yasuo), and seige capabilities. Yasuo brings just damage and the need to keep some dashing moron alive because he has all of your teams gold.

Yasuo is a seflish pick both in competitive play and in solo play. There's just no getting around that. He can't roam easily to provide pressure around the map(as is the purpose of midlane in recent times) and he's very easy to gank because he just naturally over extends. He is only picked in LCS if he's grossly over tuned.

Also, I like how you're like,"DON'T FOCUS ON THE ADC THAT HAS A SIMILAR PICK RATE TO YASUO BOT! FOCUS ON THE THREE WHOLE MARKSMEN WHO HAVE PLUS 10%!" Because one isn't new(Kai'Sa), Reworked recently(Ezreal), or consistently rebuffed and popular(Lucian.)

But not Ashe? fine. Varus has a 4.35% pick rate, with only bot lane to go to. Tristana only has bot lane and only has a pick rate of 6%, Twitch can only go bot lane and it not be cheese and his pick rate is 3%. Kalista literally can't go anywhere but bot and has a lower pick rate than Yasuo who has two other lanes to go to at 1.39%. Kog'maw, 1.23%. These are all ADCs that can only go botlane having a similar or slightly higher than Yasuo(who can go top and mid as well) and many of them have a lower winrate than him, in their own lane. Twitch is the only exception as he matches Yasuo's winrate pretty well. But also only barely beats him out in pick rate.

As for Heimers .60% pick rate, he also has a 54% winrate. He's doing fine bot lane and considering his overall pick rate in the game is low anyway, the fact that he's played bot an overwhelming 20% of the time he is played is impressive as shit: http://na.op.gg/champion/heimerdinger/statistics/adc

20% of his over all games are played as the APC bot lane. And it is by far the highest winrate position he is picked in; top lane he has a sub 50% winrate and midlane, which he also has a tiny pick rate in by the way, is a 53%. He has a 54% winrate bot lane, where it shows he is picked more often than in midlane. Trying to use Heimer when he's literally one of the lowest over all picked champions in the game really doesn't support your theory in the least; of course he has a low pick rate bot lane. He has a low pick rate everywhere. He's only picked 3.20% of the time in any game. Meanwhile, yasuo is at least picked 17% of the time; we can actually discuss and argue that his pick rates matter.

vgamedudeOct 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I literally explained how he was a selfish pick in my first paragraph. Please read:

You wont see yas period unless he's completely overtuned because he's a selfish champion who brings very little to a competitive team. Not only does his addition essentially require the entire team to play around him and pick around him but he's easy to focus and his being picked means that they are literally strong armed into having a full AD comp.

If you need it explained for you better, I will literally list the reasons as to why he is a selfish pick.

He requires a team to specifically craft themselves around him; he requires knock ups, peel, people who can engage and peel for him, an AP champion somewhere other than mid(where he will likely go) or either he has to go bot and they have to risk losing long range siege.

He is incredibly easy to focus; experienced junglers will eat him alive as while he is mobile through minions, he is otherwise pretty immobile and has a tendency to push the lane because of the nature of his Q/Nado and the dashy dash through minions

Yes, actually. He only brings damage, unlike many of the ADCs that LCS pros pick(Varus, Cait, Ashe, Tristana, Ezreal, Lucian, Xayah, just to name a few) who bring damage, reliablility, safety(Tristana, Ezreal, Lucian, Xayah can all peel for themselves relatively well while still pumping out damage; they don't have to be in the enemies face and pray they don't die and unless the enemy seriously over commits to them in a fight(which pros can't really afford to do) they don't need to be constantly protected), utility(Varus, Ashe, Cait, Blue Ezreal, Xayah all bring hard cc, zone control, or soft cc and in more reliable amounts than Yasuo), and seige capabilities. Yasuo brings just damage and the need to keep some dashing moron alive because he has all of your teams gold.

Yasuo is a seflish pick both in competitive play and in solo play. There's just no getting around that. He can't roam easily to provide pressure around the map(as is the purpose of midlane in recent times) and he's very easy to gank because he just naturally over extends. He is only picked in LCS if he's grossly over tuned.

Also, I like how you're like,"DON'T FOCUS ON THE ADC THAT HAS A SIMILAR PICK RATE TO YASUO BOT! FOCUS ON THE THREE WHOLE MARKSMEN WHO HAVE PLUS 10%!" Because one isn't new(Kai'Sa), Reworked recently(Ezreal), or consistently rebuffed and popular(Lucian.)

But not Ashe? fine. Varus has a 4.35% pick rate, with only bot lane to go to. Tristana only has bot lane and only has a pick rate of 6%, Twitch can only go bot lane and it not be cheese and his pick rate is 3%. Kalista literally can't go anywhere but bot and has a lower pick rate than Yasuo who has two other lanes to go to at 1.39%. Kog'maw, 1.23%. These are all ADCs that can only go botlane having a similar or slightly higher than Yasuo(who can go top and mid as well) and many of them have a lower winrate than him, in their own lane. Twitch is the only exception as he matches Yasuo's winrate pretty well. But also only barely beats him out in pick rate.

As for Heimers .60% pick rate, he also has a 54% winrate. He's doing fine bot lane and considering his overall pick rate in the game is low anyway, the fact that he's played bot an overwhelming 20% of the time he is played is impressive as shit: http://na.op.gg/champion/heimerdinger/statistics/adc

20% of his over all games are played as the APC bot lane. And it is by far the highest winrate position he is picked in; top lane he has a sub 50% winrate and midlane, which he also has a tiny pick rate in by the way, is a 53%. He has a 54% winrate bot lane, where it shows he is picked more often than in midlane. Trying to use Heimer when he's literally one of the lowest over all picked champions in the game really doesn't support your theory in the least; of course he has a low pick rate bot lane. He has a low pick rate everywhere. He's only picked 3.20% of the time in any game. Meanwhile, yasuo is at least picked 17% of the time; we can actually discuss and argue that his pick rates matter.

All of this text and you ignored the link I posted that showed the highest non ADC bot lane had an under one percent pick rate. Very nice.

I cannot imagine pretending like there is actual diversity bot in this game.

you also think winrate means anything when pick rate is that incredibly low. It doesn't. Also I'd wager the main reason why some ADCs have such a super high pick rate compared to others is that they're all apart of the same class type anyway. Its not like its a huge jump switching between them so most people just do.

Look at the link again.

OtterlyLostOct 20, 20181 votes

I'm not looking at the link again as I addressed that link in my post that you didn't read. I literally reposted another link showing that Heimer is an awful pick for your argument because he has a low pick rate overall and even disregarding that, if you look at the break down of where he is played over 20% of his incredibly low playrate is with him being played bot. Heimer has a low pick rate bot because Heimer has a low pick rate in general.

If you can't literally be assed to read my responses to your asinine links that prove next to nothing about bot lane diversity than I can't be assed to really continue to respond to you. I literally responded to your link with a link of my own and my own empirical, statistical evidence to completely dispute your claim.

vgamedudeOct 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm not looking at the link again as I addressed that link in my post that you didn't read. I literally reposted another link showing that Heimer is an awful pick for your argument because he has a low pick rate overall and even disregarding that, if you look at the break down of where he is played over 20% of his incredibly low playrate is with him being played bot. Heimer has a low pick rate bot because Heimer has a low pick rate in general.

If you can't literally be assed to read my responses to your asinine links that prove next to nothing about bot lane diversity than I can't be assed to really continue to respond to you. I literally responded to your link with a link of my own and my own empirical, statistical evidence to completely dispute your claim.

So youre going to ignore how no non ADC had over a one percent pick rate in that link?

OtterlyLostOct 20, 20181 votes

No I'm going to ignore your link that is irrelevant and referencing heimer. And considering Yasuo does have a higher pick rate over 1%(literally on OP.GG, he has a 1.5%), that also makes your statement factually incorrect.

vgamedudeOct 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No I'm going to ignore your link that is irrelevant and referencing heimer. And considering Yasuo does have a higher pick rate over 1%(literally on OP.GG, he has a 1.5%), that also makes your statement factually incorrect.

You act like 1.5 percent is somehow high. Its not, and that's ONE site. The site I posted not even listing him is just as relevant as that one site and even your one link if true does not disprove a single thing I said.

what does it say if one of the champions literally designed to be able to play well vs range as a melee still can't go bot with success? Look at morde as well.

99 percent of bot lane is marksmen archetype EVERY single game. I can't believe you'd bother arguing against that.

IOffMeta GtOvrItOct 21, 20181 votes

he still shows up on op.gg in bot lane, however, its a more region based stats than the global stats of champ.gg, like in korea i'd seen riven jg and even lulu mid whereas when you search NA you don't see that... hehe no surprise there

vgamedudeOct 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

he still shows up on op.gg in bot lane, however, its a more region based stats than the global stats of champ.gg, like in korea i'd seen riven jg and even lulu mid whereas when you search NA you don't see that... hehe no surprise there

So op gg matters more than international stats and other sites? Youre taking about supreme minority picks, even if other anon was right about 1.5 percent.

IOffMeta GtOvrItOct 22, 20181 votes

op includes international stats there are probably several regions who take that into account and some that don't it just depends, as a whole? no its not real popular but in certain pockets its still used a decent amount.

KirbyCakeOct 19, 20182 votes

Alt picks bot lane are viable in solo queue and I would say even better than ad bot, Problem is that pro players only pick ad bot for consistency and people are sheep.

IOffMeta GtOvrItOct 19, 20181 votes

haha, people do like whats familiar, and I agree there are plenty of options to choose from its just having to endure other people's criticism but that's the beauty of the mute button right?

EleshakaiOct 19, 20182 votes

I'll be honest... I am really glad I didn't play during that time... as a support player who doesn't often play durable champs... ONE mage is bad enough... two must've been HORRIBLE. lol

But I'm glad you had fun :)

IOffMeta GtOvrItOct 21, 20181 votes

yeah after 4 years of adc/support seeing the same matchups it was cool to consistently get a weird new combo, even if just fora little while

Chembaron YamadaOct 20, 20182 votes

I still think that if people want a diverse bot lane, then Riot should do what they did with the other positions as well. Design champions specifically for the bot lane without being marksmen.

They created a catcher/enchanter for the jungle specifically (Ivern), but how often do you see people demanding from Riot to balance Thresh to be an efficient jungler? They created an assassin specifically for the support role (Pyke), how often do you read that people want Talon to be a viable support pick?

There is no need to enforce solo laners becoming viable bot lane picks. They should design bot laners of other subclasses instead.

vgamedudeOct 19, 20181 votes

Unfortunately riot lied and said they'd make more diversity bot lane then immediately buffed ADCs and made non marksmen crap again the very next few patches.

Don't take my word for it. The non marksmen picks bot (the rare few that still exist) sit usually under ONE PERCENT pick rate versus ADCs that are many over 10 you can find all of these numbers. They're basically non existent.

IOffMeta GtOvrItOct 22, 20181 votes

yeah because if they're not in meta you face heavy scrutiny from teammates and the pressure is even greater to win so most people think.. eh why bother?