So I was watching EU Masters today and one of the matches is Euronics Vs KlikTech; Klick got ahead and on spawn started the Baron
They had 1(?) mountain, no tanks, and only 4 of the 5 members were there, and baron was dead in 11 seconds.
What a Joke of a "major" ojective, its harder to take some dragons than it is to do baron
Sp33d Zer012 votesI haven't seen the clip, but
If you have no tanks, and 4 people doing actual damage, it would make sense that it would die quickly while also dealing some damage to the squishies (depending on the support)
An Angry Man22 votesI genuinely cant believe people are trying to justify this, its a HUGE buff for your team and under NO circumstances (barring a massive gold lead) should you be able to take it in just over 10 seconds with no tank to absorb damage
Sp33d Zer021 votes11 seconds is excessive, but what's the composition?
Is it a composition that is BUILT around massive single target DPS?
Is it a Kogmaw with guinsoo who can melt through objectives with % max hp with an Azir mid who's soldiers are great for single target focus with a Khazix jungle who gets the isolation bonus and Q cd lowered? Because you slap mountain drake on that and no wonder that will all that high dps and 10% true damage it would melt.
Or is it a Karma mid who has low damage, an Ezreal ADC who won't have Bork, and a lee sin jungle?
These things matter a LOT.
dapositiveviking3 votesyeah for context, klick team was hp khazix taliyah xayah rakan. don’t know their items at twenty or anything like that, but definitely a damage focused team
Sp33d Zer05 votesThank you. Alright, so just looking at that:
Khazix I already mentioned as one of the fastest neutral objective takers in the game.
Taliyah is not super fast, but she definitely is not slow to take it with Q.
Xayah has increased auto damage with W up, good monster damage with E, AND gives Rakan enhanced damage with HIS auto attack on W.
Rakan got damage buffs prior to this patch. Not huge, but he can also tank pretty comfortably with his shielding.
This would have probably been around a 15-16 second baron without mountain.
VoraciousX1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LoJNEmzL,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-15T01:41:18.430+0000)
Thank you. Alright, so just looking at that:
Khazix I already mentioned as one of the fastest neutral objective takers in the game.
Taliyah is not super fast, but she definitely is not slow to take it with Q.
Xayah has increased auto damage with W up, good monster damage with E, AND gives Rakan enhanced damage with HIS auto attack on W.
Rakan got damage buffs prior to this patch. Not huge, but he can also tank pretty comfortably with his shielding.
This would have probably been around a 15-16 second baron without mountain.
Taliyah could only Q baron once maybe twice in that tiny circle, unless she went behind baron and Qd it a third time. There'd be too much worked ground. I wouldn't say she'd be fast at all.
Fiskface1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LoJNEmzL,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-15T01:41:18.430+0000)
This would have probably been around a 15-16 second baron without mountain.
They had 2 mountains btw!
Blåbæret3 votes[{quoted}](name= Cohérent,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LoJNEmzL,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-04-14T19:19:14.550+0000)
I genuinely cant believe people are trying to justify this, its a HUGE buff for your team and under NO circumstances (barring a massive gold lead) should you be able to take it in just over 10 seconds with no tank to absorb damage
Fanboys and idiots will try to justify anything, unfortunately.
Arsenic Sulfur8 votesSo the game had a Taliyah, Kha'zix, Rakan, and Xayah.
They could take it at spawn, which is when it is weakest, without any contest considering the 11 seconds it took to take. There was no one there to contest due to either lack of knowledge or lack of ability to because of disadvantage.
Kha'zix is one of the best neutral objective takers due to isolation.
Taliyah isn't exactly fast, but isn't slow either. 11 seconds gives her enough time to get off 2, maybe 3 full power Qs.
Rakan acts as the tank here by mitigating damage on the DPS and contributes himself because of the Xayah interaction.
Xayah has a lot of bonus damage in her kit and is an ADC.
So I don't really see a problem here. Baron is not the be-all end-all kill-all that Vilemaw is nor should he be. If he was, then that'd make him a win-more mechanic as either you end up getting aced by him if you are slightly under-equipped or you're strong enough that you steamroll him and the game anyway. Besides Vilemaw is only that difficult because you have no one to spare due to the nature of TT.
He was always easy with a team, what made Baron dangerous was the opposing team who would come to stop you and probably take it for themselves. So when you remove the threat the only thing it'll demand of you is a smite and an okay amount of items.
Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votesTaliyah Q is a 3 second CD at max rank. Further reduced by CDR. Getting off at neutal 4 full Q's is easily doable. That's about 442 (117%AP) magic damage per full Q btw + Auto-attacks, W and E launched during Q cast animation which I can't be bothered to calculate.
She's not a Kog'maw with Guinsoo's but she's still a DPS mage.
Sex With Annie7 votesjust because baron had just spawned doesn't mean it's any harder to take, if they had no tanks then I'll assume they were all doing relatively high damage to it. If everyone is dpsing it then 11 seconds is a reasonable time, especially uncontested. How long do YOU think an uncontested baron should take, because it looks to me that you're just trying to find things to complain about.
FOR JUSTICE6 votesif I'm not mistaken, his power scales with the game, therefore its at its weakest the second it spawns, then with mountain drake granting 10% bonus true damage to each person on the team attacking it, it makes sense 4 could do it I know they are garunteed to have 1 dps and a support healing or shielding them.
UnboundHades19 votesSo your saying that it's fine that a game winning objective can be killed right when it spawns
Automated Riven33 votesFor comparison. I dare you to go to twisted treeline and try to build any comp you want to take vilemaw on spawn.
Hong Kong Annie24 votesThis so much. Even if you somehow pull it off if the enemy team knows you are doing it you just got aced. Baron should be a much bigger threat then Vilemaw, especially considering the fact that you can have 5 people doing it. Baron should be harder to kill and do just as much aoe damage as Vilemaw. Make it an actual threat to try to take.
Automated Riven6 votesI would like to see something like the bosses in masterxmaster. (I think it's the game) where the boss does tons of damage but everything is theoretically dodgable. So if you take a 20 minute Baron it's more of a testament to skill then randomly taking it.
Also it should simply take longer. 20 seconds even is too fast on spawn.
The Stabby Tabby1 votesAn obligatory F for respects on MasterXMaster.
RIP, game was fun. Nanaranurk was my favorite.
TEA Nietzsche 2 votesThe problem that I have with this is that this is about playing against the enemy team and not about killing a boss. I just looked masterxmaster up and it seems that the game died within half a year - seems like a terrible reference for what LoL should be like.
HaIlMonitor2 votesA lot of dead games have good things in them. Even if it was just the map bosses, then it had that ONE THING. League is a copy of a wc3 mod that was dummied down to begin with, they took an idea and "improved" on it. Why couldn't they do that with other stuff?
SpecterVonBaren1 votesIf everything was dodgable then he'd be even easier in higher ranks as people learn how to deal with him while lower ranks would just stop taking him entirely.
Automated Riven1 votesI said hypothetically. As in people goof up And it would take perfect micro to dodge everything. Not something that's going to happen every game.
Also I should post that I am aware I am probably wrong in this specific point. It's just what I personally want.
Z3Sleeper3 votesAgreed, swap Baron for Vilemaw.
TEA Nietzsche 2 votesWhy is this even an argument, why would the unbalanced shithole that is 3v3 be relevant for 5v5?
Automated Riven1 votes3v3 isn't really unbalanced aside from the same unbalanced in 5v5. Some champions are better and some are worse.
Yaśuo Main1 votesThat is not his point. The point is that your argument shouldn't have a presence because Vilemaw is utterly stronger than Baron, so the 4 man would still kill Baron regardless if they could kill Vilemaw or not.
Automated Riven3 votesMy point was, Baron needs to be stronger. And for comparison look at the monster on the other maps power when it spawns which gives you the same type of buff. (albiet a weaker version)
Madsin251 votesVilemaw spawns at 10 minutes.
If baron spawned at 10 minutes goodluck doing anything to it doesn't matter what team comp you have.
Automated Riven3 votesVilemaw spawns at 10 minutes in a game mode that's supposed to last 20 minutes. Baron spawns at 20 minutes of a game mode that's supposed to last 35 you shouldn't be able to take either on spawn unless your willing to take a ton of damage.
Pika Fox2 votesApples and oranges. Vilemaw is on a map with only 3 players, and the teamcomp for 3 is far different than it is for 5 (derp, dunno why i said 6), as is the item builds.
Automated Riven1 votesNo. It's not really apples and oranges. Vilemaw was modeled after Baron and it's buff is comparable. They should be equivalent strenths and I am pretty sure that vilemaw I'm 3v3 is simply stronger then baron. And only three people are there to deal with it. That's means one of the two is a problem for balance. And I am sure it's not vilemaw.
Pika Fox2 votesNo, its literally apples and oranges.
One is a 3v3 map one is a 5v5 map.
One map has wards, the other doesnt.
Vilemaw will NEVER die fast because single damage based comps are trash in 3v3, and wards dont exist on the map. If baron just spawns, and you dont have ward coverage or rotate and it dies in 10+ seconds, thats YOUR fault, not baron's or riot's. YOU fucked up. YOU had the ability to stop it, but didnt. And if youre dead or not in a position to contest, then it dying in 10 seconds is irrelevant, you already fucked up long before.
Automated Riven3 votesThey are literally the same concept. They are powerful (well one is) nuetral objectives that can facilitate game ending pushes if secured. Just because they are on a different map has does not mean that they are completely separate. Also how long it takes to kill something is not the same as how dangerous it is to take. For example. Elder dragon takes a really long time to take if your solo, and even like twice the time as what it takes to take Baron, but it's not actually dangerous if you have any form of sustain. Baron should take less time but it should actually be a dangerous objective to take.
Pika Fox1 votesBaron is extremely dangerous to take, as its highly susceptible to being stolen if the enemy reacts to it and causing you to wipe as it shreds your resists.
Automated Riven2 votesROFL, that is literally the worst reasoning I have ever heard. Baron is dangerous to take because they might win a 50/50 smite fight. And if they do then you lose. Well no fucking shit because the buff is fucking broken. Even if you all survive the fight you lose because they take like 5 towers. The danger should be from Baron weakening you so when the enemy team comes in your at half health. Not full hp with like 30 less resists.
Pika Fox1 votesClearly you didnt read the second half of my statement. Baron shreds resists, so if the enemy reacts after you start it youre at a severe disadvantage. The danger in baron is the enemy team. And you lose a lot more than just 30 (and even losing 30 is A LOT).
Automated Riven2 votesBarons attacks shred .5 of your armor and magic resist stacking up to 100 times. So you have to be attacked by Baron indevidually 60 times to lose 30 armor/mr. I was being generous. In 11 seconds he attacks like 6 times. Hurray the enemy team is now gonna win cause your down 3 armor and mr. Fuck ya.
Pika Fox1 votesThey didnt even respond to baron is the only reason it died in 11 seconds, and multiple of its attacks shred more than once.
Automated Riven2 votesIt takes 30 seconds for the primary target of baron to lose all 50 armor/mr. I just went into a custom game and checked. 11 seconds would leave the primary target at like 15-20 armor mr shred and everyone else around 3-5. Not really game breaking if that team is also ahead.
Total Eclipse1 votes[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LoJNEmzL,comment-id=000000010003000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-15T19:36:10.903+0000)
It takes
30seconds for the primary target of baron to lose all 50 armor/mr. I just went into a custom game and checked. 11 seconds would leave the primary target at like 15-20 armor mr shred and everyone else around 3-5. Not really game breaking if that team is also ahead.
aka a useless af mechanic sigh.
Ratpie1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LoJNEmzL,comment-id=00000001000300000000,timestamp=2018-04-15T18:23:07.390+0000)
No, its literally apples and oranges.
One is a 3v3 map one is a 5v5 map.
One map has wards, the other doesnt.
Vilemaw will NEVER die fast because single damage based comps are trash in 3v3, and wards dont exist on the map. If baron just spawns, and you dont have ward coverage or rotate and it dies in 10+ seconds, thats YOUR fault, not baron's or riot's. YOU fucked up. YOU had the ability to stop it, but didnt. And if youre dead or not in a position to contest, then it dying in 10 seconds is irrelevant, you already fucked up long before.
This^^ It is like the earlier post saying how rift herald can kill two towers if nobody gets in its way. Who lets a rift go unchecked in a lane? I would say the same thing, who lets a team do rift or baron uncontested? 4 people out of lane and vision should be a huge red flag!
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesCorrect me if I'm wrong, but isn't Vilemaw's buff also stronger than Baron's?
Also, in TT, you generally have one burst, one dps, and one tank, as opposed to the potential one burst, three dps, and one tank of SR. And you have no such thing as a Mountain Drake there.
Madsin251 votesThe only thing special vilemaw gives that baron doesn't is moving through units and minions "fear" other minions on contact. Baron gives your minions better combat bonuses and grants you AP/AD.
Automated Riven1 votesMinion get a bunch of bonuses too. Just FYI.
Automated Riven2 votesNo. Baron buff is objectively better as only minions gain increased stats from vilemaw. And it's not anywhere as good as barons stats that they get.
Ratpie1 votes[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LoJNEmzL,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-04-14T20:58:31.561+0000)
For comparison. I dare you to go to twisted treeline and try to build any comp you want to take vilemaw on spawn.
Used to solo him with Fiddle and WW back in the day when he spawned. Unless they buffed him recently it is very doable. The real thing with Vilemaw is that the map is so small that if all 3 players go missing, everyone knows where they are going. Quite honestly I think people do a crap job of keeping an eye on objectives. With how strong rift is, why are people not warding or at least keeping map awareness of where the enemy team is? Have done some fun jungle Yorick where I solo out rift the second he spawns, and it dies fast. The enemy team is liek wtf, but they were the ones with a yorick in game not warding objectives.
Snowman Arc4 votesI didn't watch the game, but having 4 out of the 5 people missing from the map, while also not warding the baron pit at all, is a mistake. The team got punished by not warding that area.
Raiyza2 votesIt needs to be buffed as far as resistances go.
RedPannda2 voteshttps://youtu.be/89kXSx7mKa0?t=3115
Baron dies faster than you can kill krugs.
