So, counterplay to Grasp gangplank as a juggernaut/tank?

AggressiveWolf·Sep 21, 2018·14 votes·9,667 views

Normally I would ask for nerfs as this is complete bullshit but I will have a change of pace. Where is the counterplay? So I can play around this abomination cominbation.

40 Comments

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 201820 votes

can we just not have gangplanks q apply on hit effects? yea, i know this includes sheen and hits his triforce builds, which has been part of him as long as he existed, but gangplanks q has historically been as much of an issue as ezreals q.

he constantly finds a way to abuse toxic rune/item interactions with it.

maybe just cut the bullshit. it can still crit as an ability, and you can increase the ad ratio to balance out the removal of the sheen procs, but maybe having a ranged ability like that being able to utilize certain procs as if it was a melee attack isnt working out so hot.

Quiet DudeSep 21, 20189 votes

I'd be fine with Garen's Q not applying on hit affects as well. Lets remove it off both

[sg-lulu]

Moody PSep 21, 201819 votes

garen Q isn't ranged and the bonus damage doesn't crit

make an argument

Quiet DudeSep 21, 20182 votes

I'm just having fun here

Sad ChihuahuaSep 22, 20182 votes

GP's Q bonus damage doesn't crit either.

RalanrSep 22, 20181 votes

It doesn’t? I could have sworn it did.

INDRAGULFeb 2, 20191 votes

It does crit

redniwediSSep 21, 20182 votes

Why not change all "on hit" damage to only work on pure auto attacks while we're at it? No more spells that act like autos, and no more enhanced autos having the burst of a train falling out of orbit on anyone but a stacked Nasus.

Yes, I'm saying I'd sacrifice some burst from my main in order to nerf Ezreal. It would be very worth my while.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 21, 20181 votes

But what about just actual enhanced autos, like Garen's Q or Nasus's Q?

Maybe just have them not count as spells at all, so they don't also prepare Sheen as well as proc it? That way Nasus could W>Q and still proc Sheen, but Q itself won't.

Might have to make a special case for Yorick using Q to raise his Ghouls, since that is different from a simple AA enhancer.

Compensation could be slightly higher damage on the abilities in question for usual Sheen users, if needed. Not quite Sheen levels, but maybe 20-25 higher damage?

redniwediSSep 22, 20181 votes

On hit effects in general do need looking into. It front loads damage, potentially to levels that allow sustained damage dealers to behave as burst champions. Sheen, Duskblade, Static Shiv, and even Dead Man's Plate to a lesser degree all do this.

I could say melee is mostly fine when stacking this with enhanced autos because it has to deal with things like kiting, and that works correctly when looking at Garen, and Nasus, and Yorick, but assassins always find a way to ruin this sort of thinking. Ranged is a mixed bag though (looking at you Ezreal).

If enhanced autos were unable to proc Sheen there would be a lot of champions that drop it from their builds. It would behave closer to Riven's passive, where you need to weave auto attacks in between your abilities. Garen would adapt real quick, he doesn't particularly need Sheen right now, but Nasus and Yorick have used it for years. Compensation would definitely be needed, but the amount of compensation should be handled very carefully and with close consideration to each champion involved. Garen would need minimal compensation (only because of a recent nerf to his Q), where as Nasus has been relying on Sheen for the better part of a decade.

Personally I don't think there is a problem specifically with Sheen and enhanced autos. Sheen works on auto attacks, and enhanced autos are just auto attacks with a skill based enhancement on them. It's no different than an item based enhancement like Sheen, or Static Shiv, or Duskblade, or Dead Man's Plate.

Front loaded damage is just an issue right now. I don't know if it's a big issue or not, but it is one, and just focusing on one part of it isn't going to solve the whole thing.

Chembaron YamadaSep 22, 20182 votes

No. The hell, no. Playing Camille after such a change would feel absolutely terrible. Her Q got designed with sheen in mind, removing that interaction is basically gutting the skill.

redniwediSSep 22, 20181 votes

The guy I was replying to was half joking, so I full joked. What I asked for will never happen and likely should never happen.

Sad ChihuahuaSep 22, 20182 votes

GP has always built the same items. I don't know what you're on about. Only thing he has every abused was Grasp and Kelpto, and maybe Runeglave.

French CourtesanSep 22, 20181 votes

okay, remove on hit effects including two and only runes he can use. What rune does he run now other than spell book? Aery? Doesnt apply to barrels. Comet? Yeah right. Electrocute? Nice joke. There isnt single rune for that champion other than grasp or kleptomancy. He is already struggling against high pick rate champs like irelia, jax, camille and you want to take away only thing keeping him in lane.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20184 votes

{quoted}

okay, remove on hit effects including two and only runes he can use. What rune does he run now other than spell book? Aery? Doesnt apply to barrels. Comet? Yeah right. Electrocute? Nice joke. There isnt single rune for that champion other than grasp or kleptomancy. He is already struggling against high pick rate champs like irelia, jax, camille and you want to take away only thing keeping him in lane.

he can still run those runes. but he has to walk up to use them, instead of spamming q on his opponent until he "outfarms" him by 900 gold.

which he can usually do after he hits a barrel.

i understand that it would trash him in his current state, since hes balanced around those runes, and item procs. but the goal here is to change his trade pattern in lane, and then balance the rest of his kit around this change. which would mean putting some power into other aspects of his kit.

possibly his passive for example, to actually allow him to win melee trades, and maybe the barrels themselves. the point of this change would be to force him to walk up a bit more often or rely on a barrel hit instead of just spamming q from max distance like an ape.

besides. i already changed my opinion, and what they can try first instead of entirely removing on hit effects is make parrley count as a ranged auto attack. it would mean hed get 2/3 of the effect of grasp on his q and 100% on his regular basic attack. i think thats very fair.

similar with klepto, he would get a reduced item drop rate on his q, since it has the range penalty, and still 100% drop rate on his regular attack.

French CourtesanSep 22, 20181 votes

yeah changing it to ranged attack makes much more sense. Especially since GP doesnt have base stats to walk up to bruisers. I am actually all in for shifting his powers to be better suited mid laner than top laner. I play gp with klepto on mid and I absolutely hate grasp gp top because its braindead build.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 22, 20181 votes

Either just nerf grasp and buff gp differently because grsp isn't op on GP alone.

The best thing id like is change his Q buff the fuck out of his barrels/base stats/passive so you are actually a brawling pirate. I hate how he has been forced into this spam Q off cooldown to win lane playstyle. Or even better buff him so he can be played mid again. Mid gp only real gp but it's not possible with shitty base stats, zero sustain and waveclear. Every plat 5 just pushes you out of lane repeatedly and goes roaming.

Miss the times when i would go into melee mode against riven, fiora, jax with TLD and actually FIGHT them.

Destello AzulSep 22, 20181 votes

So the problem isn't Gangplank , the problem are the runes. Stop asking for nerfs for champions and start asking for nerf the runes.

Critmaster GarenSep 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Destello Azul,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LfWE04rX,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2018-09-22T10:01:48.547+0000)

So the problem isn't , the problem are the runes. Stop asking for nerfs for champions and start asking for nerf the runes.

his q has repeatedly been an issue before runes reforged was a thing.

Critmaster GarenSep 21, 20187 votes

another option would be to have parrley count as a ranged auto attack. at least this would mean he wouldnt get 100% strength out of klepto and grasp, but a reduced effect.

he would however get 100% effect if he walks up and attacks in melee. seems fair imo.

Silly NeekoSep 21, 20182 votes

Would also limit the hydra procs too, however that said, if they did that to GP they would need to do that to Poppy as well. Kayle is a special soul that is a fake ranged troop cause nobody goes in to melee auto with her except very special circumstances that happen once in a blue moon pretty much.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 21, 20184 votes

Eh. Poppy usually isn't getting as many Grasp procs with her passive, due to her having to time it better if she's preparing it on minions. That means a 16-20 second delay before she can hit you with it, unless she spends mana to Q and E the minions (which is a lot more mana than a single GP Q). She also hasn't historically abused on-hit items.

Kayle...Pretty sure it does actually count her as ranged while she has E up, given that it actually modifies her range. (Looking at the Wiki, this is actually the case. She ceases to be melee and instead is ranged while E is active).

redniwediSSep 21, 20181 votes

Yep, she counts as ranged. The oddity of her attacks is that they are non-projectile ranged attacks.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 21, 20181 votes

Yeah. That's always fun to bring against Yasuos. Almost as fun as playing Nasus into them.

Silly NeekoSep 21, 20181 votes

Yes but she can activate titanic, apply sheen procs, and then toss her shield.

Like i said. Shes special. She is a fake ranged. She is only ranged with her E on. She is "melee" otherwise, which nobody builds her as. To be honest it didnt have a whole lot to do with it, just that its range enhanced

Chembaron YamadaSep 22, 20181 votes

It's about consistency. It is not consistent design if you let GP's Q count as a ranged attack, giving him less value from runes and items along with it, while Poppy's passive still counts as a melee attack with full benefits.

Either change both or neither, it shouldn't feel arbitrarily.

INDRAGULFeb 2, 20191 votes

Poppy's passive is a Ranged auto attack that count as melee Gankplank's Q is a ranged ability that count's as a melee attack

WHy is everyone ok with that bullshit? I can tolerate poppy, but GP'Q also grants bonus gold and can crit it is just one ability and does all this shit, we have then 3 more to go, burst heal and cc immunity on his W and a literal chain nuke that you cannot dodge and costs no mana, oh and a global slow that damages you and covers the space of an entire lane, come the fuck on people

SpoofghoulSep 22, 20183 votes

well gp has to be in combat for 4 seconds before grasp happens

there is your window to go apeshit on his arse

the issue is people are trying to trade with him

just go ham most juggernauts will demolish him before he gets sheen

You do not have the luxury to to casually farm and trade or wait until he pokes you out of lane

SociaI JusticeSep 22, 20182 votes

gp drops a barrel - hits it once - he has now been in combat for 4 seconds.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 22, 20182 votes

Yeah no that's not how it works. A good GP with decent spacing and barrel management is untouchable.

GP is now balanced around if the enemy has a jungler you lose the lane/game if not you spm Q off cooldown to victory.

Yordle XayahSep 22, 20182 votes

Build 9K HP, sit around, kill everything with ambient damage.

Brutalitops01Sep 21, 20181 votes

Really, just focus on farming. Last hit under turret if you have to. Who were you playing, may I ask? Most juggernauts have all-in kill potential as him post-6, and most fighters have early advantage. As a tank, you shouldn't really be focusing on fighting him anyway. Just farm your lane, let him push you in, maybe kill him with a jungle gank if you get the chance to, and just become a wall of fat against him later. He'll pretty much always have 1v1 pressure, but if you can soak up enough damage from him in a teamfight and keep your allies from it or catch him out with cc and let your allies blow him up, he'll just become useless. Health is probably the most effective stat against him in the late game if he's good at using his barrels, and Armor if he isn't. His barrels cut through 40% of your armor, so health is ideal to stop them from just chunking you anyway. Armor is better earlier into the game and as you scale into the late game if he doesn't use the barrels effectively because then, all of his damage is getting blocked by your armor, not just 60% of it. I recommend rushing Ninja Tabis against him (his Q and I'm pretty sure his Q to a barrel both count as basic attacks for the damage they deal, so Tabis extra 15% block to damage from basic attacks will help) and then going into an armor item like Sunfire Cape or potentially Thornmail. If playing a juggernaut, just go the normal build that you would go, but don't fight him until after level 6. As Yorick, you might be able to get some early damage or maybe even kills on him with ghouls, but otherwise, don't expect to do a whole lot until after you have ult. With fighters, again just go the normal build and kill him. You'll be stronger than him in lane pretty much guaranteed, so it shouldn't be too hard.

Silly NeekoSep 21, 20181 votes

Well, to be able to use that, they would have to not farm minions with Q. It will take a lot of mana to keep it up, and especially early game is where you can take advantage of it. Armor + health items like sunfire cape and Randuins makes it so he doesnt do much and helps you get up close to him. Otherwise, you nearly could go for a visage rush so you just regen everything back passively with the second wind rune.

For more damaging types, it depends on the champ.

Likely you wont "win" vs him unless you have a decently hard engage champ (darius, shen, maokai) but you can make him choose between farm or poking, and of he engages then back up a bit unless your jungler is coming in, then smash him.

SociaI JusticeSep 22, 20181 votes

this post is hilarious in so many ways

BlåbæretSep 22, 20181 votes

They should just up the mana cost even more. The previous increase to its cost wasn't enough. He can still pretty much spam it in lane enough for you to have to back.

INDRAGULFeb 2, 20191 votes

why just not double his current mana cost (lowering it per level ability) make so it refunds some mana if used on minions or his barrels?

AlzonSep 22, 20181 votes

I wish all abilities that count as autoattacks but don’t reset the autoattack timer could not apply on-attack effects (Sheen, Duskblade, Shiv, Grasp, Klepto, etc.) but still applied on-hit effects (Bork, Wit’s End, Cleaver, etc.). The only exception should be critical strikes on champions specifically noted for it. Champions affected would include:

Evelynn Ezreal Fiora Fizz Gangplank Irelia Jax (Q only) Leona (does not reset AA timer) MissFortune Warwick Yasuo

This would lower the burst of any of these champions who build Sheen or Duskblade, and make proccing Conqueror a bit tougher for others. They would then rely more on raw damage or on-hit effects instead.

BârdSep 22, 20181 votes

Second Wind + item 1054 is enough to let you survive the poke in lane phase, so long as you aren't taking avoidable damage.

Aside from that, you kinda just have to abuse the fact that, by virtue of being Gangplank, he's not gonna be fully relevant until the extreme late game.

Until then, he's a mild annoyance with a global slow.

Put him behind early via ganks, since he's not tanky early on and isn't terribly mobile.

Survive his early lane phase, putting him behind if possible. Don't let the game go late.