Nerfing sivir is soooooo not the answer

Totalis·Jul 26, 2015·6 votes·1,242 views

How many more times are we going to nerf sivir before we learn that that's not going to cut it? The reason sivir is played every game in LCS and has been top tier for so long is NOT because she's blatantly op, but because every other adc is weak in comparison.

For the past year now, adc's across the board have only been receiving nerf after nerf, with the occasional exceptions like mf's rework, ashe's reword, vayne's buffs in 4.13, varus' slight buff in 5.5(his q got the cd to start at the start of the cast rather than when the arrow is fired), and cait's passive buff in 5.11

If we buff other adc's so that they aren't all weak, we wont need to nerf a champion thats already received tons of nerfs!

28 Comments

OperationDEEZ1Jul 26, 20154 votes

Meanwhile we have Jinx who is basically the Zed of ADCs in the sense that Riot will not touch her, except once in a blue-moon for a love-tap

LaowPingJul 26, 20154 votes

She took a pretty powerful nerf a few patches ago so not sure what you're talking about.

A Miss FortuneJul 26, 20152 votes

Yeah, Jinx isn't really that overpowered. By all means she's strong and viable, but she has plenty of room to counterplay. Thank god people like you exist Laow, you're literally my savior of the Boards.

LaowPingJul 26, 20152 votes

Lol, appreciate it. Nice to see you here too.

LuggJul 26, 20154 votes

I'm sorry, but that "nerf" was pretty much a joke. Her early game is stronger than Graves right now.

LaowPingJul 26, 20153 votes

That nerf was not a joke. I main ADC and jinx is one of my favs. That nerf was felt. Her mid game went from "I'm bout to go HAM" to "meh, I'm ok right now"

I don't know what graves you're facing that is doing bad early game. His burst can beat Lucian in trades back when Lucian was still strong. Jinx has a bit of poke at best by level 7 or so but that's it. Her early game is still lackluster since many ADC's out DPS her at that stage.

LuggJul 26, 20152 votes

The problem is that once Jinx gets BF Sword, she is set. That is ridiculous for a champion to get one simple item that is cheap and isn't even a completed set and then starts to carry with it.

Her early game is quite safe thanks to the rockets, zap, and chompers. She can farm from range if needed and can prevent ganks pretty easy. For as insane as her late game is, her early game should be complete garbage.

EffectFXJul 26, 20153 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai6oMY4U0Yw&ab_channel=Pawnce

ChargeItDownMidJul 26, 20153 votes

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LaowPingJul 26, 20153 votes

That's mainly because there isn't much variety in ADCs. Top lanes can be bruisers or tanks. Mid can be burst mages or utility mages or assassins. Supports can be tanky initiators or they can be squishy peelers. Jungle can be anyone of these. ADCs don't have that variety. Saying "you can't have a team comp without an ADC" is more akin to saying "You can't have a team comp without a top laner"

ChargeItDownMidJul 26, 20152 votes

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LaowPingJul 26, 20151 votes

Wrong. Marksmen aren't synonymous because they are OP. They are synonymous because that's the only thing 90% of them can do. This is not proof, this is illogical. ADC's are chosen because the meta is that bot lane always has a support and an ADC (or marksmen if you will). Many fighters can Melee ADC's can out class marksmen and many of them do. Many midlaner outclass marksmen.

The problem with ADC's(who I will refer to as ADC but will mean marksman) is that the only thing they are able to try and do is carry using sheer damage, but everyone else on the team, except support, can fill that same role. Azir and Victor can pump out as much damage (if not more) than an ADC and still have more safety and utility. Top laners like Irelia or riven can match their damage and have more escapes, tankiness, and utility. Junglers like Nidalee or Reksai can help out lanes and provide unique utility and still put out the damage. If any of these guys fail to do well and find themselves lacking damage, the can also build utility and tankiness. A midlaner can get a rylais and still be viable, a top laner can build spirit visage, frozen mallet, black cleaver, thornmail, etc and still be helpful by teleporting in at the right time. The jungle can just roam and ward and smite objectives. ADC's only have one switch: do damage. Yet other roles can do this better and still have a fall back plan if they don't.

AnonagonJul 26, 20153 votes

{quoted}

The thing is that other marksmen are only weak compared to sivir, they are not weak compared with all of the champions in league. Remember this, no matter how "weak" marksmen are now compared to last season, they are still the only archetype that every team chooses. Teams can be built with no tank, teams can be built with no bruiser, teams can be built with no mages, teams can be built with no melee adc, teams can be built without any archetype except the marksmen because marksmen are still extremely powerful. Their ability to safely secure objectives is absolutely insane and there is no reason all of them need to be buffed to sivir's level.

Here's the thing; ADCs are not mandatory because they are objectively more powerful than other classes; they aren't. They are mandatory because this is a tower pushing game and they push towers the fastest.

ADCs that aren't fed (or Sivir/Ashe/Kalista for their ults only) are currently terrible at doing anything BESIDES tower pushing.

If there were a reliable alternative to ADCs for tower pushing, that did something besides just push towers, ADCs wouldn't be picked at all, except for Vayne because she's Vayne or Varus because lets be honest he's more a physical damage mage than an ADC at this point. The only champion who seems like he could be the alternative is Azir, but its not reliable because W'ing towers means one less soldier, while ADCs don't sacrifice anything to auto a tower.

While I'm sure lots of non-ADC players are happy about them being the way they are, I'm pretty sure "tower pushing bots" isn't the only thing Riot wants ADCs to be.

ChargeItDownMidJul 26, 20152 votes

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AnonagonJul 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Being able to safely push a tower fast is an extremely powerful attribute in league.

wow its almost as if I said thats the only reason they are mandatory!

The fact that they are so good at taking one of the most important objectives in the game is exactly the reason why they shouldn't be buffed. Remember, league is an objective based game and champions are measured by how well they can achieve those objectives.

I supposed every champion that can solo dragon should be absolutely useless at everything else then? I agree! Lets nerf Fiddle's R to the ground, he doesn't need it for dragon, and he shouldn't be able to make huge teamfight contributions the way he does. Nunu too! Honestly the damage from his E and R should be straight up removed with how much objective pressure his Q gives him - the slows are powerful enough!

Honestly while we are at it, we should take strong splitpushers like Tryndamere, Jax, and Shaco and make sure that splitpushing is the only thing they can do if they aren't fed. After all, with such strong objective control, why should they be able to do anything else?

ChargeItDownMidJul 26, 20152 votes

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LaowPingJul 26, 20151 votes

You don't need an ADC to take a tower. Anyone who's AD can take a tower pretty well. Due to the Season 5 changes, Mages can take towers decently. Towers don't define the game. If anything they can help you get ahead but proper grouping and rotations can take towers as well, even without the ADC preset. Just having a lane constantly pushed can take tower. ADC's don't take towers as safely as you think. Many of them don't have an escape. All of them are squishy and will die for being caught out. If you gank an ADC trying to tank a tower they would die the same way nunu/fid/ww would if you ward and gank dragon, if not more easily. Strong split pushers only have weaknesses because everyone has a weakness. Shyvana, Hecarim, Shen, and Vladimir are great teamfighters by the way, even though they are strong split pushers. Split pushing contributes to taking down towers just as much has having an ADC exist.

ChargeItDownMidJul 26, 20153 votes

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LaowPingJul 26, 20153 votes

Again, they are required because it's META!!!!

Everyone team needs a support. 99.9% of games has a support. 99.9% of games with level 30 player also have a jungler. Does this make support op? No. Does this make junglers op? No. Marksmen are always played because you are expected to have a ranged damage dealer the same as you are expected to have a jungler for ganks and objectives or a tank to protect people. Without that, you are missing out. Marksmen may be required but it doesn't make them overpowered since many other aspects of league (tanks, support, jungles, etc) are also required.

NemeBroJul 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Again, they are required because it's META!!!!

Everyone team needs a support. 99.9% of games has a support. 99.9% of games with level 30 player also have a jungler. Does this make support op? No. Does this make junglers op? No. Marksmen are always played because you are expected to have a ranged damage dealer the same as you are expected to have a jungler for ganks and objectives or a tank to protect people. Without that, you are missing out. Marksmen may be required but it doesn't make them overpowered since many other aspects of league (tanks, support, jungles, etc) are also required.

And why, exactly, do you think it's meta? For fun? No, it's meta because a team without a marksman/ADC (the terms are basically synonymous to be honest) is at a serious disadvantage. Because the class is so strong.

Support as in the archetype, or the role? There's a difference. Same with jungler. Supports vary hugely in their capabilities and uses. So do junglers. Some supports are engage tanks, some siege mages, some sort of like a second AP carry, but many different kinds of champion can be used as a support. Janna is very different from Blitzcrank. Junglers might even be more diverse, with carry junglers like Yi, CC tanks like Amumu, and early gankers like Shaco, who can all contribute to the team in different ways depending on its needs.

The ADC is different. Each ADC essentially fills the same need: high AD DPS and quick, safe objective taking.

Marksmen are pretty much required. Safe and sustained AD DPS as well as unrivaled objective control as a class is really strong.

If a marksman were not so powerful, they wouldn't be used in every game.

FeathermaneJul 26, 20152 votes

This argument is bullshit. The reason you can have some of those other classes, but not all is because they are interchangeable. Bruisers are tanky enough to sub for tanks, mages double as assassins, as do melee carries. No other class has ranged dps.

LuggJul 26, 20153 votes

ADCs are weak? You have to be kidding me. Almost every one of them can pentakill a team if they are good and have any peel at all.

sp441Jul 26, 20152 votes

Maybe it'd help if every ADC didn't feel the same.

Honestly, ADC is my least favorite role, I feel like I am playing with pretty much the same champion over and over. It's always the same: farm, farm, farm, scoop up kill if possible, farm, farm, farm, poke if you can, farm, farm, farm, join team, kill dudes by clicking on them, use dash abilities to bail if necessary, keep farming.

Doesn't help that I am always buying pretty much the exact same items every match with every champion.

LycopolisKingJul 26, 20151 votes

I agree that nerfing Sivir isn't the answer, but I don't think it's because other ADCs are weak. I think it's because she offers the easiest Team composition to execute (hard engage) that combats poke, which is currently heavily in the meta.

Sivir, as a champion, is extraordinarily balanced and does not do exceptional amounts of damage at any point in the game. In most duels she is quite vulnerable to being out traded because of range discrepancy and lack of any real damage steroids. Her popularity remains in the meta as a whole and the utility she brings to the team, definitely not her innate power.

Adrian BlackbearJul 26, 20151 votes

Her ultimate is already weird enough as it is with all the buffs/nerfs it has gotten. Nerf her Q to make her less oppressive and take away some of her waveclear. Not even like a serious nerf. Like a lovetap nerf.

A little PeepoJul 26, 20151 votes

You do realize sivir is mostly picked because she counters most adc and doesn't really struggle against any adc like vayne would against a caitlyn. Sivir is just an extremely save ADC pick who is really tough to take down in team fights with a good support because if her spell shield and AoE ms and AS. That doesn't mean she deserves a nerf tho, but don't sell other adc short by no means.