Hi Meddler, context on nerfing Runic Echoes for all its users rather than abuser?

Dessem·Mar 22, 2016·1 votes·533 views

Lemme start off by saying I totally agree with a runic echoes nerf if it's being built on Hecarim as the only AP item he'll ever see.

However, there are junglers who aren't tanks, but still use AP and so build Runic Echoes. for example, and but also Nerfing the item's base damage will harm the tanks who use it as their only AP item for the movement speed, but it also harms the AP users who actually do build AP outside of Runic Echoes.

The patch notes specify that it was nerfed because of Amumu, Nautilus, Hecarim and co building just runic echoes and no AP follow-up, but the current change'll harm even the regular AP junglers who do build AP. Care to elucidate why it's being nerfed for all its users instead of mostly its abusers?

10 Comments

masterdragon481Mar 22, 20162 votes

I have a quick answer for you. Those are some of the champions abusing it. I would venture to guess that EVERY tank jungler is abusing it. I know Gragas at pro level is building it every game. If an item is so powerful that it is optimal on every champion (as Runeglaive currently is) it needs to be nerfed.

One could argue that the ap ratio on the item should be buffed, maybe to 35% AP to compensate, but the reality is that that needs to be a second step. This is because Runeglaive is still going to be doing plenty good damage, especially for champions building AP. Buffing it might push already really strong ap junglers (mostly nidalee) even further out of whack.

So, for the sake of not turning too many knobs at once, it makes sense to nerf runeglaive (because tanks are using it more optimally than the ap junglers it was intended for) and see what that does before making the next move.

Meep ManMar 22, 20161 votes

I build it on: Amumu Chogath Gragas Hecarim Malphite Nunu Skarner Zac

And it overall performs better than Cinderhulk. Although, to be fair, this for the most part isn't because it is a LOT stronger (although it is a little), it's because Cinderhulk is just boring to build and play with for a Jungler. Its basically just a passive damage aura to speed up jungling. GREAT! Why not just build Runic Echoes and get Sunfire Cape and get overall better numbers? Cinderhulk needs a different item passive in my opinion, not Immolate (or whatever). Suggestions: item 3082 item 3075 item 3083

Cold Steel would not only help with Jungle Clear by preventing damage, but also provide the Tanks some power against ADCs, the champions who give them the most issues. Thornmail, perhaps, could be given a Jungle item equivalent that deals increased damage to monsters. Maybe the bonus damage could scale off of health instead of armor. This gives Tank Junglers a cool little synergy with the 15% bonus health. I mean, why not? They are getting a lot of health anyway, why not make it a Jungle Warmog's?

masterdragon481Mar 22, 20161 votes

With you 100%. In fact, I view Cinderhulk as a bad item; because its health with no resistances to back it up. That means I need to spend more time and gold investing in armor before I can be useful. Sunfire out performs Cinderhulk at every point. Need a new tank jungle item please!

I want my cinderhulk to be more than just health, because my problem is itemization issues; health doesn't do tanks much good (unless you are sej or voli, the whole reason cinderhulk got nerfed in the first place) because it doesn't help their clear and it doesn't give much of an effective health increase. Give it some CDR. When Cinder last got nerfed, it wasn't providing any mana regen. The new nail and tooth passives really help with that. Maybe even give it some mana regen, similar to runeglave. These are just ideas, but bottom line is make Cinderhulk more than just a bunch of health that, on its own, doesn't do much.

The other 3 enchantments all help their users do exactly what they want. But health on its own doesn't really accomplish this.

DessemMar 22, 20161 votes

Thanks, that's a super clear answer. Sounds reasonable enough.

masterdragon481Mar 22, 20161 votes

My pleasure. I'll push the point a little further. If jungle tanks stop picking up runeglaive every game, do you think there is a possibility for some of the lesser picked champions (Like eve) might be able to make a comeback based off that alone? That is just a more in depth reason that just occurred to me that I thought I would mention.

TormentulaMar 22, 20161 votes

I'm still wondering why people run runic echoes on hec etc. I mean yea movement speed but wouldn't cinderhulk+ludens ekko basically be the same thing? Maybe better since the MS of ludens isn't nerfed like runic. I'm just not understanding it and probably missing a calculation or two.

Is it just a better build path that made this a current thing in comparison to before?

(I'm aware I said luden's Ekko but it's too hilarious for me to fix the typo)

masterdragon481Mar 22, 20161 votes

Mana regen on Runic is really nice. There isnt' really a good mana sustain item in the game that Hecarim can use; Runeglaive was it.

QuephaMar 22, 20161 votes

It's a much harder nerf for the abusers because all they get out of the echoes proc is the base damage. For champions with a lot of AP, that 20 damage nerf is just a drop in the bucket.