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"We at Riot know you are afraid of how DQ will affect ranked integrity, but we will handle it."

Velzard of Koz··29 votes·2,922 views

"We at Riot know you are afraid of how RNG factor of plants will impact true skill of outplaying enemy, but we will handle it."

The randomness to them for example is pretty heavily controlled:

  • They spawn on one of a few pre-determined possible spawn points for their type of plant, each picked to avoid abuse cases and make it fairly intuitive where you'll find them.
  • Their spawning timing's similarly controlled (every 90-110s sort of thing, not full random). They also won't spawn at all in some circumstances (e.g. before/during first clears for example)
  • There are some strict fairness controls on them to ensure they don't meaningfully favor one side of the map over the other (should get generally equal plant spawns across the two sides of the map over a period of time)

Plus

They're also nowhere near as frequent, or obtrusive, as some people have worried they'll be. As a jungler you'll probably consider personally interact with a plant every minute or so. This isn't a system that'll be constantly demanding your attention, or dictating your major choices, more one you'll take advantage of occasionally.

Basically "We are going to use this time of our creators to design major new feature of next Season, which you are not really going to use that much..."

If plants flop and we can't find a way to make them work we'll pull them.

Of course, since we will fall into Sunken Cost bias again, we will pull them at the end of Season 7, replacing them by something "fixed".

Me: https://media4.giphy.com/media/w2UtIGtEpuR9u/200_s.gif

https://media.tenor.co/images/54451401d52c0dd2fe9ee5752857d53c/raw

http://i.imgur.com/DKJhx9l.gif

All prepared to see the Boards of Season 7

"Rito this is bad idea don't do it" "U all hatin' before you try" "Rito this is bad idea, sthap" "They will tune it later, 'tis only Preseason" "Rito it fcked up the game, remove it" "You only finding excuse why you are bronze V"

"We at Riot decided it was really bad idea" "Praise our lords and saviours, see, they listen to feedback, you all should be silent now"

What new feature did we get from Season 6? Trust issues.

58 Comments

DeathBurst23 votes

What new feature did we get from Season 6? Trust issues.

Exactly, and this is why there is all this backlash for Plants. Now if y'all could shut up until you at least tried them for yourself, that'd be great.

IPromiseTomorrow7 votes

But what if it's like SoloQ "We'll put it in eventually" or something Riot said

We didn't have it until the end of the season. Trust issues are the worst! I can't be certain they'll pull back plants if it flops because of what happened to SoloQ in S6.

I guess time will tell...

Gstevenston2 votes

A rioter on the boards specifically stated that if the plants failed in the preseason they would remove them. I know that everyone has PTSD from DQ but just wait and see at least until PBE gets to see them...

BetweenSkill2 votes

The reason everyone has "PTSD" is that they said they would pull DynaQ if it didn't work, and it took them an entire season to do it. An entire season of having something going wrong.

Dextix LT4 votes

Mhm, Riot says a lot of things, not all of them are true, so forgive me if i don't exactly believe them.

Velzard of Koz2 votes

Sorry, I was indeed cringing myself that I had to jump on the hatetrain, but couldn't help myself but write this post. I accept the fact I may be pleasantly surprised like in case of Dragons etc., but because of their previous steps, I have well-deserved mistrust.

EDIT: Additionally, I am more concerned about the repeated approach "We realise it's weird, but trust us, we can handle it."

Miror B3 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, I was indeed cringing myself that I had to jump on the hatetrain, but couldn't help myself but write this post. I accept the fact I may be pleasantly surprised like in case of Dragons etc., but because of their previous steps, I have well-deserved mistrust.

EDIT: Additionally, I am more concerned about the repeated approach "We realise it's weird, but trust us, we can handle it."

Yeah, let's not forget that the RNG factor with dragons was and still does heavily bias towards a certain kind (if one team has 2 infernals and another has a cloud and an ocean, then the team with the infernals has a massive advantage over the other).

The bigger fear I have of this isn't so much whether it fails, but what happens if it succeeds. For all we know, rito could potentially add even more RNG crap to this game which combined with the already existing dragons/dynamic queue (getting your exact role is up to RNG)/parties (unless you pre-5, RNG decides whether you play with terrible people or ones with actual skill) making this game less about skill and more like a timesink casino in which rito wins and the entire community loses.

DeathBurst1 votes

Pffff... All these RNG aren't holding you back more than a division or 2, at the very worst. More probably none at all.

You don't get to Plat or Diamond magically just with a bit of luck.

Arakadia1 votes

But I like Smite Buffs more then Plants... even if plants are balanced.

Kog And Balls11 votes

I don't expect Riot to pull plants regardless of how they affect gameplay if they do have a negative impact on gameplay they'll say that they have the stats that say plants are having a positive impact on gameplay and show us a graph they had an intern whip up.

http://imgur.com/cGamWEv

S H A Y C 012 votes

a few months down the road...id be interested to see just how accurate this post was

Ralanr3 votes

It's already very accurate. Just look at rift herald for reference.

DeathBurst2 votes

What's your issue with Herald?

Ralanr3 votes

I don't really think it's worth contesting and I rarely see it used.

The buff is powerful. I was able to outduel an Irelia as Sion with it, but I don't see it as worth it.

DeathBurst4 votes

Well, I kinda agree, but that's not a scoop, even Meddler kinda agrees, and he said they would reduce at least damage next patch and maybe HP the following patch. And even now, it's still definitely worth it for a lot of early bullies or splitpush champs. (It would be great for weak early champs too, except they can't realistically contest it due to their weakness).

But what's the link between that and Riot refusing to back down from a change or publishing fake data? Herald is at worse ignored, and at best still contested a few times, so that's not really the same kind of issue as DynQ or what Plants might turn out to be.

Ralanr3 votes

Because (IMO) herald is still here despite it not improving gameplay much at all. Riot keeps tweaking it, but it's not getting noticed.

Honestly I'm just pessimistic towards the plants. I support Riot's right to change things, but I don't like the changes.

DeathBurst2 votes

Honestly, I'm really not convinced by what we've seen of Plants up to now. But when I see all the sh*t people say, all the hyperbole and whining, before it's even released on PBE (and let's not talk about trying it by themselves...), I can't help but get angry at this stupidity and defend Riot just by contradiction.

As for Herald, it's not as if we paid a high cost by having it in game, even if it doesn't improve the gameplay much. There is no reason to pull it, as it stands. It doesn't throw off balance, it doesn't impose a high burden of knowledge or anything.

(And I think it's under-estimated, because it's one of the few things that is actually better in SoloQ than in organized play, so players don't see the pros use it and then don't realize how strong it would be in their game. It just needs a bit of marketing and advertising :p But as someone who already uses the buff regularly, I won't complain if the herald is nerfed ^^ But all this parenthesis is besides the point.)

RogueWill1 votes

you pick the herald if there is nothing else on the map to pick, sometimes I give it to my top laner because mid is dead, so is dragon and top recalled with TP up so I know I can't touch the enemy turret. Proceed to take herald

specter4246 votes

"If plants flop and we can't find a way to make them work we'll pull them." yea right, just like keystones were a flop and they still forced them upon us while we watched our main champions get nerfed.

DeathBurst5 votes

Keystones were a flop according to who? Even the boards, which are very quick to whine, are not really complaining about them...

Kog And Balls4 votes

Its not that people hate keystones and they are bad they just haven't had the effect Riot intended them to have which was to promote different play styles depending on what keystone you wanted to take for that game. Instead they just added a bunch of unnecessary power to champions kits and helped them do what they were already doing, but better.

Playing a burst mage 9/10 you will take Thunderlords, playing a tanky jungler Strength of ages, playing a Marksman Fervor is your fix.

I think the only Keystone I legitimately feel hit the mark is Stormraiders cause that shit is fun as fuck to proc. Nothing feels better than bursting an adc in the middle of the enemy team then turning into speed racer and booking it the fuck out of there.

DeathBurst6 votes

Playing a Burst Mage or a Diver, you can go for Stormraider, and not just as a funny gimmick.

Playing an AoE or Artillery Mage, you can go for Thunderlord and more lane presence or Deathfire and more team-fight damage.

Playing an ADC, you can go Warlord and out-sustain your opponents in lane and/or alter your late-game build since you need less life-steal.

==> There ARE choices. Sure, there is a dominant meta, but saying that Keystones should be reverted (as the initial comment I replied to was implying) is basically the same thing as saying "130 champs is useless, we should delete most of them, let's just keep the 5 more popular for each role".

specter4244 votes

They add nothing interesting to the game. They caused multiple champions to get nerfed and remember 10 thunderlords every game? Well now its 6 or 7 every game.

DeathBurst4 votes

I would agree that they don't add a lot of interesting stuff, but it's still more interesting than the OLD mastery system, which was basically only passive stats.

Current masteries with Keystones aren't great, but they are still better than the old system without Keystones.

President Swa1n2 votes

I strongly agree with this. Masteries have been improved IMMENSELY IMO and were INCREDIBLY bland previously. Furthermore, they have said there are improvements to masteries coming in season 7.

Keevalroy3 votes

The old masteries were arguably boring, but at least they didn't add ludicrous free power to champions and make balance that much harder for the already incompetent balance team like keystones do. Out of every poorly thought out plan Riot committed to in Season 6, Keystones are right behind Dynamic Queue for the title of Biggest Mistake of the Season.

DeathBurst2 votes

This post basically lost all credibility when you mentioned "ludicrous free power". It's not more power than the old masteries (relative to base kits or items, for instance), it's just much more visible, 'cause you can see a big fat lightning bolt nuking you from orbit, whereas you didn't notice passive stats in the old system.

And then you chain that with bland insults against Riot and bandwagon'ing against DynQ... Well, I guess this conversation is done.

Keevalroy1 votes

Where on the old tree did it give you 3 BF swords worth of AD? Where on the old tree did you get free lifesteal - and don't you dare mention lifesteal is a negligible effect. Where was the mastery point that gave a DoT effect based on AD/AP accentuating the snowballing issue? On that note, where on the old tree was the same rule applied to give you 3 hit passive accentuating burst? How about the mastery that dealt percent health damage every few seconds and healed you for proccing it? Psst, they weren't there.

Edit: I had had forgotten about Vampirism (ADC main - that tree wasn't used much by me.)

Keep throwing yourself in front of Riot, you're only enabling their insanity.

DeathBurst2 votes

The masteries overall, not just the keystones in isolation, are roughly the same power as the old system. Keystones alone are incredibly more powerful than any singlepoint you could spend in the old system --- but all the non-keystone points in the current version are very weak compared to corresponding points in the old system. All in all, there is as much power in masteries now as there was before.

Keevalroy1 votes

Bullshit. Take a standard ADC path for example from last season and compare it to one now. Fervor alone is worth 3920 gold in stats which shows a colossal issue right there that Riot is just now recognizing as a problem, but that's besides the point.

If you want to call their power equal, prove it. Do what the other Riot shields aren't and back up your defense with something that isn't parroting a dev.

DeathBurst2 votes

You know what's bullshit? Counting as if Fervor was always fully stacked.

And why should the burden of proof be on me? You're the one going against the status quo.

Keevalroy1 votes

First, let me correct that number since it looked funny - Fervor is actually worth 3920 gold. And why shouldn't I assume it's fully stacked since the carries who take it generally have the ability to reach at least 7 stacks in a fight?

Second, the burden of proof falls on you because I'm sick of the fucking Riot shills that constantly regurgitate whatever rationale the Red at the time used as a defense for introducing an unhealthy addition to the game. If you're not one of them, then please educate me in how these trees are somehow equal in power. If it's so obvious, it shouldn't be difficult to illustrate this without relying on a Red for support and instead, thinking on your own.

DeathBurst1 votes

Sooo, I really shouldn't indulge trolls like you, but meh, I can't help but fight for the truth....

It took me a few days to find the time to do that, and a few hours of actual research, but let's give it a shot.

#Season 4-5#

OFFENSE Fury: 5% AS Double-Edged Sword: +1.5% damage dealt, +1.5% damage received Brute Force: 10 AD @ lvl 18 Martial Mastery: 4 AD Executionner: +5% damage dealt to enemy below 50% Max Health Dangerous Game: Champion Takedowns restore 5% Missing Health and Mana Warlord: +5% Bonus AD Devastating Strike: 6% Penetration Frenzy: +5% AS for 3s after a Crit, stacking 3 times Havoc: +3% damage dealt

UTILITY Fleet of foot: +1.5% MS Scout: +15% trinket cast range Summoner's Insight: 20% Summoners CDR Alchemist: +10% potion duration Culinary master: 20 HP + 10 Mana on potion use

#Season 6#

FEROCITY Fury: 4% AS Double-Edged Sword: +2% damage dealt, +2% damage received Natural Talent: 10 AD + 15 AP @ lvl 18 Bounty Hunter: up to +5% damage dealt (+1% per unique Kill) Battering Blow: +7% Armor Penetration Fervor of Battle: up to 112 damages on-hit @ lvl 18

CUNNING Wanderer: +3% MS out-of-combat Secret Stash: Alchemist + Culinary Master Merciless: +5% damage dealt to enemies below 40% Max Health Dangerous Game: Champion Takedowns restore 5% Missing Health and Mana

#Analysis#

A lot of things are hard to evaluate in terms of Gold, but there are some direct comparisons possible. All values are given relative to the CURRENT masteries

Fury: -1% AS Double-Edged: +0.5% damage dealt and received Natural Talent now gives AP compared to Brute Force, AD value is the same. BUT Battering Blow doesn't give Magic Pen compared to Devastating Strike Bounty Hunter is up to 5% damage but is conditional, Havoc is 3% damage permanently, from level 1 Battering Blow: +1% Armor Penetration Wanderer: +1.5 MS out-of-combat BUT -1.5% in-combat compared to Fleet of Foot Secret Stash is exactly the old Alchemist+Culinary Master Merciless: triggers 10% lower (this is a bad thing for new system). Dangerous Game: exactly the same.

All in all, all of these are roughly equivalent, with one set better in certain situations and the other better in some others. So what does that leave us with?

Old system: Warlord + Summoner's Insight + Scout + Frenzy + Martial Mastery New system: Fervor of Battle, all alone by itself.

Let's ignore Scout, but that leaves: 4 AD (permanent, from level 1) + +5% Bonus AD (permanent) + up to +15% AS + 20% Summoners CDR VS up to 112 damages on-hit (only when fully stacked @ lvl 18)

And no, damage on-hit is not the same as AD, it doesn't scale your skills, etc. Even if you count as if Fervor was always fully stacked (which is still bullshit), it's only worth 2800 Golds, and NOT 3920. On-hit damage is worth only 25 g/point, compared to real AD 35 g/point, so get your facts straight.

So come again and tell me where exactly there is "ludicrous free power" in the new Mastery system as a whole? Of course Keystones are completely OP compared to any other single point of Mastery, be it in the old or the new system, doesn't matter. Because this way, it makes them noticeable, and something you actually care about, compared to bland, passive stats. But the Mastery system as a whole? It's roughly power neutral compared to previous season.

And, satisfied that I'm not yet another "fucking Riot shills" that just "regurgitate Riot rationale"?

Fuckin' ass-hole....

Kog And Balls2 votes

The thing is players will always gravitate towards the most effective keystone for the champion they are playing efficiency will always be king as long as keystones favor certain champions as opposed to certain play styles.

That is why I love storm raiders so much cause its not just more damage its a high risk high reward keystone that promotes a hit and run strategy, but even then burst mages and divers get so much more from Thunderlords since you don't have to have confidence in your play to use it.

DeathBurst1 votes

The thing is players will always gravitate towards the most effective [stuff]

Yeah, of course, that's called having a meta-game. That's why Ekko is built more as a Tank than an Assassin these days. That doesn't mean there isn't choices to be made (you can still play AP Ekko) and that Keystones can't fit different play styles. Because they totally can, as I just detailed in the post you replied to.

Going Stormraider is more than just a gimmick, it's a totally valid choice, it's just so happen it's not the meta choice as of right now. But meta changes and evolves, and that's also true for Keystones.

Drakylon1 votes

{quoted}

Playing a Burst Mage or a Diver, you can go for Stormraider, and not just as a funny gimmick.

Playing an AoE or Artillery Mage, you can go for Thunderlord and more lane presence or Deathfire and more team-fight damage.

Playing an ADC, you can go Warlord and out-sustain your opponents in lane and/or alter your late-game build since you need less life-steal.

==> There ARE choices. Sure, there is a dominant meta, but saying that Keystones should be reverted (as the initial comment I replied to was implying) is basically the same thing as saying "130 champs is useless, we should delete most of them, let's just keep the 5 more popular for each role".

Frankly the biggest part about choosing what keystone to use is what champion you're playing.

  • Are you a jungler? If yes, then Strength of the Ages.
  • If no, then are you a toplane tank/bruiser/melee in general? If yes, then Grasp of the Undying.
  • If no, then are you a tank support? If yes, then Bond of Stone.
  • If no, then are you still a support (an actual support, not something like Brand or Zyra)? If yes, then Windcaller's Blessing.
  • If no, then do you scale (significantly) with Attack Speed (and properly, not like Jhin) and/or will you be attacking often? If yes, then Fervor of Battle.
  • If no, then will you naturally have high amounts of AP/AD and/or do you have significant DoT effects? If yes, then Deathfire Touch.
  • If no, then can you easily proc Thunderlord's Decree? If yes, then Thunderlord's Decree.
  • If none of the above, then Deathfire Touch.

The only choices that affect playstyle are between Fervor of Battle and Warlord's Bloodlust for damage vs sustain, and actually considering Stormraider's Surge. Even so, pretty much every champion and role combination has a specific keystone they want 100% of the time. Most keystones are just passive boosts that get applied just by playing normally; they don't affect playstyle all that much. Think about it; how often do you actually think about Strength of the Ages applying? Bond of Stone? Deathfire Touch? Fervor of Battle?

DeathBurst1 votes

A lot of Toplaner can consider both Strength of the Ages and Grasp, depending on the match-up and if they want to trade early or not. Bond of Stone is also under-rated imho, and is viable even on Solo laners, for the permanent damage reduction against hard match-ups, and the utility in team-fights is just the icing on the cake. All in all, the 3 green keystone are all situational and a good fit for most front-liners. The fact that one dominates the other is just the fact that there is a meta, but you should know that the meta is just as much a question of player perception and of what is currently fashionable as it is a question of pure balance.

Same for TLD vs DFT, both are viable, TLD is for single target burst and DFT is for AoE DPS, and if you do the math, you realize that it's pretty much always better than TLD in team-fights. People just prefer TLD because you feel it more in lane where it's mostly 1v1 brawl, but it's not a question of balance.

Think about it; how often do you actually think about Strength of the Ages applying? Bond of Stone? Deathfire Touch? Fervor of Battle?

Well, maximizing Grasp procs is one of the key points to win a melee vs melee match-up in Top lane, and I play in a very different way when I picked Strength of the Ages. And I don't play a lot of champs with TLD, but I'm pretty sure that managing your TLD procs is also very important.

Vistha Kai3 votes

https://media.giphy.com/media/gSRkSblDEjUuk/giphy.gif

Elikain2 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/ohHORYEr-clarification-on-plant-rng

I know a lot of people like to badnwagon because it's easier but please, don't think Ignorance lets you off the hook. First understand how it works and what's PRNG, how much of an impact will it actually have in games and test it once it's there. Then and only then, give Riot opinions on what feels good and what feels bad - not before.

Velzard of Koz2 votes

  1. Ignorance? I follow surr@20, I did read Meddler's responses (because plants seemed to me like interesting feature with the first paragraph where they just announced it, then they started to reveal it's another RNG)

  2. It still has more random factors than solidity. Spawn areas are limited and designed to be relevant to the specific plant, yet circa 5 different of them per quadrant in case of BC which still leaves much randomness. The time, despite the fact being again regulated (limited early, smaller range of 90-110) again random. So instead of being fixed points like in case of healspots of ARAM or TT, giving enough integrity to create actual strategy, it's more of Yayks look what I've stumbled upon.

  3. And by what Riot originally said, more interactivity in the jungle was the actual reason why they designed plants. Plants theirself seem useful, they add sustain, pathcontrol and vision within jungle. But their randomness takes away the proper strategical use. Imagine jungle camps spawning at random times within range at random locations determined by the indents. You can still know where to find them but what changes is whether you'll be fighting (newly) five raptors or three wolves, what smite advantage will it give etc. That takes away whole pathmaking strategy.

  4. I am programmer, I do know how (P)RNG works and what it is. For your information, the person in the article marks it PRNG because of the limitations which is wrong. Even without limitations, it's still PRNG, because computers usually use solid algorithm for random numbers, affected only briefly by external sources which you can still manipulate (harddrive space, heat of components, etc.). Most libraries of pre-built functions are called pseudo-random number generators, yet for easier usage, they are shortly called random. Opposite of pseudo-random is true random which is based on external sources that are hard to track back or manipulate such as wind blowing direction and force, heat of air at specific areas. This is not really widely used so I doubt Riot would use some external system for RNG, so they'd still use PRNG, it's called just RNG because it's shorter and everyone counts with pseudo-randomness as default.

  5. I merely give opinions. I said their approach "We know it's weird, but trust us, we'll handle it" reminds me of DQ and we all know how it ended up. And what was before? People ranting in advance before trying it were criticised by people like you again telling "You didn't even try". Then, when it was there, came argument "It's only pre-season, they'll tune it". They've been tuning it half the season (until it was bearable yet still questioning the integrity of ladder), people still complained and at the very end of season, they said it was indeed mistake. So don't tell me the mistrust people have is not relevant.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

{quoted}

What new feature did we get from Season 6? Trust issues.

And hextech crafting. New client alpha. Rotating Game Mode with a handful of unique modes. Some pretty dank lore. Champ updates to Taric and Yorick. Elemental Dragons, which work quite well. Two large-scale class reworks.

I'll eat crow and admit I was wrong about DQ but to say "WE GOT NOTHING OUT OF SEASON 6" that's outright wrong.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Some pretty dank lore.

Yeah, a handful of detached stories for the price of dozens of cohesive stories.

Dank as fuck.

Two large-scale class reworks.

Of which two weren't successful.

New client alpha.

It's not out yet.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

New client alpha is the most we've gotten in about four years and it actually works. Considering mages have (so far) been the most diverse class at worlds, at least one of those was successful. And I'll gladly take well-written detached stories over poorly written cohesive schlock.

But then again you also cherrypicked the things you can argue most subjectively so there's that as well.

Vistha Kai3 votes

But then again you also cherrypicked the things you can argue most subjectively so there's that as well.

Fine.

And hextech crafting.

I'm mostly neutral about it as since I still have more chests than keys and I have yet to get(from a chest or reroll) a skin that I can actually use.

Rotating Game Mode with a handful of unique modes.

For me, rotating game mode took all the charm from those modes. When we got URF on 1st April, I found it really fun. Same for other modes. With Rotating Game mode? I played like 2 games in it, one of them, because my friend asked me to play a mode they haven't played back when it was first released.

Champ updates to Taric and Yorick.

I don't play any of those champions nor I see them often (at all), so it's hard for me to have an opinion.

Elemental Dragons, which work quite well.

Work well "how" exactly? At driving people away from contesting them, because half of the aren't worth the time to leave the lane maybe?

New client alpha is the most we've gotten in about four years and it actually works.

It's not live and isn't going to be until pre-Season 7.

Considering mages have (so far) been the most diverse class at worlds, at least one of those was successful.

Define "successful". If you meant Syndra, then I'd like to inform you dumbing down a champion isn't something to be proud of.

And I'll gladly take well-written detached stories over poorly written cohesive schlock.

Opinion. Facts are that the old lore had continuity, map and was engaging, putting players and the game in play too. Not some crap like "Summoners aren't canon... except they are, but you won't know until unforeseeable future.".

Velzard of Koz1 votes

I'll eat crow and admit I was wrong about DQ but to say "WE GOT NOTHING OUT OF SEASON 6" that's outright wrong.

I never said we got nothing.

True list, but...

Champ updates to Taric and Yorick.

Why you excluded Poppy? Is it because she's woman and a yordle? Racist!!! #kappastry

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Tail end of Season 5 actually. She was released in November or so just before pre-season.

Velzard of Koz1 votes

Oh sorry then, for some reason I thought she was released at the start of 2016 as part of S6.

Bladerunner77771 votes

God, the boards are fuking cancer

Meep Man1 votes

To the outside, it is cancer probably. But from the inside, you come to just expect things and see things a different way, so the cancer part just becomes normal and all cancer is considered "Constructive Feedback". Welcome to the Boards, where I live and try to make the most of it.

Dextix LT3 votes

Yes, yes, we have to unconditionally trust and love Riot, we get it already....

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