Wukong with Rapid Firecannon

RickDodger·Dec 19, 2015·2 votes·2,020 views

anyone else try this combination?

I've done a private test with it where extended the range of Crushing Blow by 105 units. It also proc'd it's bonus magic damage with his attack.

Given that you combine this with his E and Q range ... throw in and means he has strong sticking power.

I'm stating the obvious here but take in mind i'm also using for higher penetration, for healing and cooldown reduction, and for shredding power, cooldown, and health.

with scaling health runes up to 265 +45 at 1st level for 310, and I get 300 again from strength of the ages ...

I can go on with the math but you can guess how I kept remotely resilient with this. ESPECIALLY in team fights.

...Granted I was testing it in a private bot match but ... you get the idea.

If anyone else thinks this can work in pubs then let me know.

31 Comments

GigahappytownDec 19, 20153 votes

If your buying lw you're bad

its the worst pen item in the game and borderline worst ad item

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

Dude ... tell that to a Yasuo ... and his ultimate is the same thing at 50% ...

ParoeDec 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If your buying lw you're bad

its the worst pen item in the game and borderline worst ad item

Yes, because being one of the most gold efficient items in the game is "bad". Because being able to negate litterally thousands of gold is "bad". Because 15% damage amp is "bad"

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

... You ... I like.

FrikgeekDec 19, 20151 votes

It's horrible on champs who want to burst squishies and already have %shred or buy BC. On most champions(Even if they have like 50-100 bonus armor) Wukong Q + Black Cleaver will shred them below or close to their base armor, making LW almost entirely useless.

GigahappytownDec 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes, because being one of the most gold efficient items in the game is "bad". Because being able to negate litterally thousands of gold is "bad". Because 15% damage amp is "bad"

Lw is bad if you are not a adc and against someone who literally bought only armor

The only reason to buy LW is if you desperately need armor pen and can't use black cleaver.

Stacking as much flat pen as possible is a more viable strat then buying LW

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

Dude... you can only buy so much flat penetration in runes and masteries alone. Then there's only item 3142 and item 3156 for a total of 30 armor penetration on top of 14 you would get from masteries. Then there's the fact I can get 14 armor penetration from my runes for a total of 58 armor penetration with those two items and my rune page set-up.

But I can only pull something like that off in itemization with jayce - -

That, and I didn't know better.

Pierce The VealDec 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If your buying lw you're bad

its the worst pen item in the game and borderline worst ad item

Although I have you blocked on the client have my upvote. Unless you're an adc and they're stacking armor you shouldn't even consider this item. I mean, it's efficient, but only if people have tons of bonus armor.

BluePolarizerDec 19, 20151 votes

if LW penetrates 10 armor, it's already superior to dirk.

ProfDrDeathDec 19, 20151 votes

10/0.3 = 33.3 bonus Armor.

Aka, at least one Armor item.

Ice Weasel XDec 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm stating the obvious here but take in mind i'm also using for higher penetration...and for shredding power, cooldown, and health.

I'm actually curious about that interaction now that Last Whisper only affects bonus armor.

Let's say a champion has a base armor of 100 and 30 from double Cloth Armor. That's a total of 130, but only 30 bonus. Full stacks from Black Cleaver reduce total armor to 91 (130 x 0.7). How much of the 91 armor is considered base, and how much is bonus?

Does reduction apply separately to base and bonus for this, leaving base at 70 and bonus at 21?
Does reduction apply to the total, but subtract first from bonus and then from base once bonus hits 0? This would mean 4 stacks of Black Cleaver would leave the total armor at 104 with base at 100 and bonus at 4. 5 stacks would leave total armor at 97.5, categorized as base with no bonus.

I expect that the first scenario is true, but I haven't found myself in a situation where I've stacked a Last Whisper item with Black Cleaver.

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

Actually let's go with the general 85 base armor for now.

85 armor +115 bonus armor. the 115 bonus armor is reduced by x.6 and you get to worry only about 69 bonus armor. 85 + 69 would be 154 total armor.

We then reduce armor by either x . 7 twice for his Q and item 3071 , OR we stack the two instances of 30% armor shred and treat armor as 60% shredded.

separating the two percentiles means you worry only about 75 armor from your enemy. if they stack then you worry only about 61 armor from the target.

ParoeDec 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Actually let's go with the general 85 base armor for now.

85 armor +115 bonus armor. the 115 bonus armor is reduced by x.6 and you get to worry only about 69 bonus armor. 85 + 69 would be 154 total armor.

We then reduce armor by either x . 7 twice for his Q and , OR we stack the two instances of 30% armor shred and treat armor as 60% shredded.

separating the two percentiles means you worry only about 75 armor from your enemy. if they stack then you worry only about 61 armor from the target.

iirc %s apply separately, and in the order purchased.

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

so we go with 75 armor with these two items.

FrikgeekDec 19, 20151 votes

The actual order is flat shred->%shred->%pen->flat pen. Order between the same pen type is completely irrelevant as they stack multiplicatively for %pen and additively for flat pen. Where shred would be armor removal aka BC and Wukong Q(helps everyone on your team) and pen only helps you. So in your 85+115 scenario it would work like this:

200x0.7x0.7=98. Now they have 85 base armor and 13 bonus armor. Dominik's would penetrate 40% of that so you'd get 85+7.8=92.8 total armor.

Don't buy any LW item on Wukong if you're already going BC. It's a horrible anticombo that will give you 0 pen on most targets and only a small amount of pen on supertanks. Unless they have a Malphite with 500 armor that you really need to kill for whatever reason(though you're still better off with MR to survive his damage in lane and just burst the ADC). Buy Maw instead, it will give you MR, lifesteal+spell vamp on low HP, and flat penetration.

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

... let's do this math again by what you stated.

85 is base armor. we shred that by 30% once and 30% again and we're left with ... 41.65 armor from wukong's effect and black cleaver.

115 BONUS armor is where we're calculating here. we shred 115 bonus armor by 30%/30% to go with this and it means we're left with 56.35 BONUS armor. Now we use Dominik's regards and get ourselves 40% bonus armor penetration for 33.81 bonus armor left.

41.65 base armor and then add the remaining 33.81 bonus armor. we have ourselves here 75.5 armor left...

... yeah... it's an anti-thesis... ... BS.

But yeah. If there's an entire enemy team that's basically no bonus armor then I wouldn't get dominik's regards or Mortal reminder. Mortal reminder is the only PHYSICAL AD AUTO ATTACK ITEM that grants GRIEVOUS WOUNDS mind you ... same as with morellonomicon.

and lord dominik's regards still provides the benefit of increased physical damage against enemies 500 health higher than you.

So again ... i wouldn't get it for low bonus armor composition enemies. But I still get them for either cock blocking high regeneration/healing champions or out damaging super tanky champions.

This combination of items was meant to be a build on a tank buster Wukong.

FrikgeekDec 19, 20151 votes

That's... not how it works mate. You can't reduce someone's base armor. It's always the same for whatever level they're at. Reducing someone below their base armor just counts as 'negative armor' and with enough flat shred you can make someone go below 0 armor. Shred doesn't distinguish between bonus and base armor and will simply reduce their armor to a certain number. After this, the game will look at the champion's base armor depending on level and re-calculate bonus armor(if their post-shred armor is above their base armor). You can easily check this in-game, try hitting someone with flat armor runes with a Wukong Q and mouse over their armor afterwards. You will see that their base armor will always remain the same unless you managed to shred them below that number.

200 armor affected by 51%[1 - (0.7*0.7)]=0.51 armor shred will reduce them to 98 armor. This is actually below the base armor for some champions(Darius at 98, Braum and Rammus have over 100) and therefore it will count only as base with 0 BONUS armor to be affected by LW.

For other champions that might build tank you will be left with 5-15 bonus armor to be affected by LW, a very small number.

The only exception here is Thresh, as his base armor is always 16 and any armor he acquires through souls is counted as bonus armor making LW extremely effective against him.

In your 85+115 example, this is what happens. Wukong Q + full stack black cleaver reduce their total armor(200) to 98. Game re-checks bonus armor, sets it at 13. Dominik's penetrates 40% of that(5.2) and you're left with 85 base + 7.8 bonus armor. You're only getting 5.2 armor penetration from Dominik's, it's extremely cost inneficient. Get flat penetration instead as it will allow you to pen them below their base armor. Youmuu's + Maw in the same situation will bring your 85+115 target to 98-20-10=68 armor.

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

Well thanks for giving me the run up. My issue is I have a preference to go round-about with the math if it does or doesn't end up the same way.

Again... This was before realizing the math. But are you saying lord dominik's regards and Mortal reminder's secondary effects are NOT WORTH TAKING?

... and wait a minute ...

wukong's is 30% and black cleavers is 30%

1 - (.7x.7) is actually 51 where as ...

Jayce is 25% while in gun mode ...

1 - (.75x.7) is 0.475 ... dude ... that math makes no sense.

If we should go by anything we should do it simply..

0.75 from jayce x 0.7 from black cleaver is 48.5% armor shred

0.7 from wukong and x 0.7 from black cleaver means we have 51% armor shred.

This kinda math makes more sense...

FrikgeekDec 19, 20151 votes

That's just how multiplicative stacking works. 2 sources of 30% shred will equal 51%(or 0.51) total shred. 1 source of 10% shred and 1 source of 40% shred will equal 46% total shred. More is obviously better here.

Obviously 0.475=47.5%, I don't see where the problem is. Don't know where you got 48.5% from, I'm assuming that's a typo.

I really don't see a problem with my previous math, maybe you missed the decimal point?

For Dominik's 40% to match Youmuu's + Hexdrinker's flat 30 your target would need to have 75 bonus armor after the 0.51 shred. Assuming decent 85 base armor your target would need 326 total armor. This pretty much means you'd need some crazy armor stacker with 241 bonus armor. That requires 3 heavy armor items(FH+Thornmail+Randuin's is 250) which leaves them with almost no HP or no MR items.

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

i was off by 1.0 point.

FrikgeekDec 19, 20151 votes

Anyway, just get flat pen. It's better against anything that's not crazy into stacking armor. And I mean REALLY crazy.

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

But honestly ... I wanted to point out that wukong's Q can actually get 105 extra reach with rapid firecannon...

...I didn't want this to end up in a whole armor pen/shred topic ...

FrikgeekDec 19, 20151 votes

Yeah, it works even better on Rengar. It massively extends his passive leap range,

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

... I'll have to try that.

FrikgeekDec 19, 20151 votes

It's pretty wacky. With 6 trophies and Rapid you'll get 875 leap range. That's 100 more than Towers and even more than a Kog'Maw with W active.

That's enough to jump from the midlane brushes to the center of the lane. Using the 0.5s delay after exiting a brush and with enough movespeed you can actually jump from the edge of the midlane brush almost to the midlane tower.

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

Now if we're doing this right ...

Everyone remembers how armor and MR effect damage right?

we take current armor, add +100 to it, and then do 100 / 175 .

this shows then that all damage is only 57% effective on the target. As armor goes up, this percentage goes lower.

... unless no one ever bothered to study that?

Pierce The VealDec 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Now if we're doing this right ...

Everyone remembers how armor and MR effect damage right?

we take current armor, add +100 to it, and then do 100 / 175 .

this shows then that all damage is only 57% effective on the target. As armor goes up, this percentage goes lower.

... unless no one ever bothered to study that?

Yeah most people don't know how percentages work.

The easiest way to state it to people is like so:

1 armor is equal to 1% bonus hp against physical damage, and same for magic resist and magic damage. Having 100 of a resist means you basically have 2 times as much hp against people with that type of damage.

RickDodgerDec 19, 20151 votes

Which means each reduction in armor is going to help regardless.

Pierce The VealDec 19, 20151 votes