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PSA: Thornmail is not - and wasn't intended to be - an offensive item

Glory ln Death··93 votes·5,033 views

Thornmail was never intended to be a damage item for tanks like Sunfire Cape. With the exception of Rammus, it was simply meant to deter AD auto attackers and diminish or negate lifesteal. However, it was a problematic item because its return damage affected everyone, not just lifesteal/sustain champions. Because of this (and how strong it synergised with Rammus), it had to be kept pretty weak so it wouldn't just destroy everyone without lifesteal.

Now, with Grievous Wounds added, Riot was able to improve Thornmail and fit it more smoothly into its anti-auto-based-sustain niche. The damage return was reduced because it doesn't need to negate as much healing since GW is now applied. Health was added so it isn't a completely awful choice against teams with mixed damage types. Cold Steel was added to, again, improve its anti-auto-sustain identity.

You are not supposed to be able to kill any enemies who dare to touch you just by having the item. That is not enjoyable, balanced gameplay. Thornmail allows you to respond to enemies who want to use you as a walking health pot. That is its entire purpose.

On a different note, for players who want to use Thornmail/Bramblevest - it is not a generalist anti-auto item. It specifically counters auto-attackers with built-in sustain or who heavily itemize into lifesteal or other forms of sustain. Or who have a Soraka support. Please don't get it against champions who focus on crit over sustain - that's what Randuin's is for. Thornmail won't do much to stop crit stackers from shredding you.

And, a final note, because I know the main controversy over Thornmail is coming from Rammus players - yes, it's quite a bit weaker for him now, and reduces his damage output. However, rather than changing an item for just one champion, it would be better to buff Rammus' reflected damage in his kit to compensate. If he takes too much of a hit from this change, I'm pretty sure Riot will do that.

tl;dr - Thornmail is for defense, not offense. It fits its niche better now. Don't buy it against crit. Buff Rammus' reflection damage, not Thornmail's.

87 Comments

lettuceguy13 votes

Thornmail has never been THAT strong where the enemy adc was just going to die when hitting you, it was a mix of tankiness and whether or not you, as a tank, were ahead. Thorn doesn't give health, therefore if you build it first it's essentially useless, it's use comes from midgame where the adc had no lifesteal/not enough, and it would return pretty decent damage onto those squishy targets. It wasn't a great item, but it used to better. HOWEVER, with the implementation of less damage and grievous wounds, I think thorn is in a much better place. It deters adc's lifesteal and healing when attacking tanks, who, before then, used to just be free damage or lifesteal. Thorns weakness will always be the fact it provides no hp because it's an item especially built for adc's or on-hit carries. It's a risky item that has a very specialized target, and provides no protection from magic sources or even hp for ad castors. Thornmail is a niche item built for when the enemy adc is the only threat, and in that case it's very powerful, however, that's pretty much it's only use. Facing off against other tanks with thorn is okay, but for the most part tanks don't utilize on hit damage as much as they do on abilities. I'm glad it's been nerfed, as well as revamped because now it will do a job, rather than kill an adc for aa'ing them. Good on riot for switching thorn from it's old, 33% damage return shit. That was crazy.

Glory ln Death5 votes

Well, it does have health, now. Just 250, so not very much, but it isn't completely wasted when the enemy team has some magic/true damage.

But, yeah, I agree that it is in a much better spot now, where it can fulfill its anti-auto-sustain purpose without screwing over normal auto-attackers who don't have sustain.

JRobin313 votes

I agree. There may be tweaking that RIOT will have to do to balance the effect of item 3075, but the overall developer decision to put Grievous Wounds on item 3075 was excellent. IMO, the effect belongs there. And while some champions may be able to use abilities to heal and avoid auto attacking, it is important to note that those abilities aren't affected by item life steal. They are affected by spell vamp.

iamthegoatofwar2 votes

I remember once I was fighting vs a full AD comp as nasus and had a caitlyn try to solo me. I literally ignored her and when she decided she wanted no more I was at 90% hp and she was at 10%. Not trying to make any arguments vs what you said just saying your post brought back a funny memory of mine.

Marshbouy10 votes

Thanks for this post. People don't realize that as an auto attacking champion it is incredibly toxic to be killed by auto attacking enemies, AKA doing your job.

Everyone has seen those videos of rammus killing people by just sitting there. That's the definition of unhealthy gameplay and does not do what thornmail is intended to do.

lettuceguy5 votes

It's also a synergy with rammus w that made it insane. Rammus has always been a champ that ad's need to fear because his w is a thornmail, and when you have thorn and w, and probably sunfire and ult popped, it's certain death for squishy ad's. But yeah those days sucked lmao.

Bob the Toastr3 votes

Maybe you shouldn't take all ad teams then.

It Hertz When IP4 votes

While you do have a point, at the same time ADCs are intended to be the ones that take down tanks during a team fight, as reliable sources of sustained damage. Having a tank that killed you just by standing there while you did what your entire class is supposed to do wasn't particularly healthy.

Now, with new Thornmail-W combo inflicting GW but reduced damage, you're still screwed if you take an All-AD team, but if your team is properly supporting you, Rammus can't just auto-win duels.

Swarovsko5 votes

Yeah because doing damage by simply right clicking is healthy and has a lot of counterplay, because we all know that autoattacks are telegraphed, have cooldowns and require aiming. But let's just nerf thornmail because it's an unhealthy design lol

Spicy Rice3 votes

Implying killing people by just sitting there and taking attacks is healthier than people right clicking get others to death

Glory ln Death2 votes

There are ways to reduce damage from auto attacks (armor, Tabi, etc). A number of champions can only do damage through autos, though, and a strong, damaging Thornmail would effectively remove them from the game.

Ralanr4 votes

After playing around with it, this is my thought on the new thornmail: It is strictly a tank item in that it hinders multiple people on the enemy team (even if it hinders one more than others) kinda like frozen heart. Omen is now more of a juggernaut item with the slow and how it only helps yourself.

LankPants3 votes

Omen is a better item than Thornmail as it stands. There's no reason to ever buy Thornmail over Randuins at current. Even VS heavy healing it's better to go Rand's for the extra durability and have your carry go EC. You sacrifice less that way.

Thornmail is a steaming pile of garbage that should never be bought by anyone. It's in the exact same camp as Sunfire Cape, just stick to Rand's, Knight's Vow and DMP on every single champion, they're strictly better items.

Ralanr1 votes

What if my carry won't buy EC!

LankPants2 votes

Then pick up a Bramble Vest and sit on it. Knight's Vow+Bramble is better than Thornmail+Ruby, which are about the same price range anyway. Into the late game Thornmail is literally worthless anyway, so just sell the Bramble after 5th item and buy something else.

Bramble Vest is a pretty good item, it's just Thornmail is terrible, for an extra 2000 you get almost nothing on what Bramble Vest gives you anyway. 250 HP and 40 armour are not good enough stats to justify 2000 gold when Bramble is already 35 armour for 900. The extra passives aren't that impressive either.

There's never a reason to build Bramble Vest into Thornmail.

Melledoneus1 votes

Except your ADC sometimes can't get near the sustain monster without getting destroyed.

Draven This guy will two shot your ADC and laugh at their pitiful Grievous Wounds.

DrMundo Juggernaut. 'Nuff said.

Olaf Your ADC is easy HP.

These and others are proof that thornmail is useful.

LankPants2 votes

If your ADC can't get in range to attack an Olaf or a Mundo you've already lost that game.

Thornmail's utterly ineffective VS all these champs anyway. Mundo and Olaf rarely attack tanks, they tend to just try to run past them. Draven on the other hand tends to lifesteal enough that GW is an ineffective counter. He goes from sustaining from 0 to full in 5 attacks to 0 to full in 8 attacks, it doesn't shut him down. Old Thornmail was actually stronger VS Draven since the %damage return would take a larger chunk out of Draven's HP on every attack.

Bramble Vest isn't a bad item, the problem with Thornmail is that it fails to be a significant upgrade on Bramble Vest. You get about 1.4k gold worth of stats and some fairly unnoticeable passives for 2000 gold, it's just not worth it. You could just stick with Bramble Vest and build better items, for example Bramble+Knights Vow is only fractionally more expensive than Thornmail but it's significantly more powerful.

Whenever you think about building Thornmail ask yourself "Is the damage return and GW more valuable than an AoE slow, 20% DR on crits and a far better statline with better gold efficiency?" I don't think the answer to this question is ever yes.

Melledoneus1 votes

I never said thornmail is fine as is. I just said the concept itself is useful. You said there is no reason to every buy Omen over Thornmail, and to that I say moot.

If you're dealing with a Kog and an Aatrox on the enemy team which has no crit, that's a thornmail game.

LankPants1 votes

If you're dealing with a Kog and an Aatrox on the enemy team which has no crit, that's a thornmail game.

I disagree, I think Randuin's is still better. If you want to win at some point you're going to need to get to the Kog, the Rand's active helps with that, the extra HP is still also good.

In that case I'd take Frozen Heart over Randuin's over Thornmail. Regardless I probably wouldn't build any of these items, I'd go with a Righteous Glory/DMP because reaching Kog tends to be the only way to beat him. I'd probably also look at Stoneplate/Locket since it gives the best suitability VS %HP damage. Even in an optimal case for Thornmail it's outclassed. It's just a really bad item as it stands.

Kloqdq4 votes

My problem with it is even when I was using it to stop someone from just healing on me, they still did it perfectly fine. With the old thornmail, I would at least make them regret doing that. Now I feel like I just wasted 2000 gold. The damage actually diminishes the lifesteal better than the GW does. Now you just kind of make people dislike you mildly for hitting you, but you are far from actually being a problem.

cocacolalips4 votes

itt : people who are bad at maths

random numbers to make a point

old thornmail = you have 100 health, thornmail did 50 damage, you were healing for 50 health = you still have 100 health

new thornmail = you have 100 health, thornmail does 15 damage, you are healing for 50/2=25 with grievous wound = you now have 110 health.

both items have the same niche, countering/disincentivizing auto attack heavy champions from attacking you (marskmen) and the new thornmail is less effective at doing that (but more effective against champions with little to no AD vladimir, swain, mundo.. etc..., champions who heals from skills fiora, darius etc... or champions with high attack speed and low ad values, aatrox, xin zhao, maybe kogmaw etc...)

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

itt : people who are bad at maths

random numbers to make a point

old thornmail = you have 100 health, thornmail did 50 damage, you were healing for 50 health = you still have 100 health

new thornmail = you have 100 health, thornmail does 15 damage, you are healing for 50/2=25 with grievous wound = you now have 110 health.

both items have the same niche, countering/disincentivizing auto attack heavy champions from attacking you (marskmen) and the new thornmail is less effective at doing that (but more effective against champions with little to no AD vladimir, swain, mundo.. etc..., champions who heals from skills fiora, darius etc... or champions with high attack speed and low ad values, aatrox, xin zhao, maybe kogmaw etc...)

Grievous Wounds is 40%.

So it's more like you'll heal for 30 from a 50 heal.

cocacolalips3 votes

doesn't matter, the point is the same.

LankPants2 votes

It does matter because it makes Thornmail utter trash.

Skias1 votes

{quoted}

itt : people who are bad at maths

random numbers to make a point

old thornmail = you have 100 health, thornmail did 50 damage, you were healing for 50 health = you still have 100 health

new thornmail = you have 100 health, thornmail does 15 damage, you are healing for 50/2=25 with grievous wound = you now have 110 health.

both items have the same niche, countering/disincentivizing auto attack heavy champions from attacking you (marskmen) and the new thornmail is less effective at doing that (but more effective against champions with little to no AD vladimir, swain, mundo.. etc..., champions who heals from skills fiora, darius etc... or champions with high attack speed and low ad values, aatrox, xin zhao, maybe kogmaw etc...)

Noone seems to understand that the lifesteal vs old thornmail always buried Thornmail's damage. the only time it killed you was non-lifesteal builds. The point is, it's bad at it's job. The grievous wounds only reduces 40%, which means that the champs running DD and another LS item are still healing like mad. The bounce back is negligible now and basically does very very little to help. Honestly, you probably get better results from Randuin's. Thornmail isnt helpful for what you want it for. It basically shuts down champs like Morde, Maokai etc that have very gated sustain. This was not it's intended purpose.

I just find it humorous that the champs that it hurts most are generally AP champs with timing specific healing. Bramble is all you need. There is very very little value in Thormail. You'd be better off rolling into a different high armor item that gives health and a more useful passive. Sit on bramble forever.

1374341 votes

You have to be careful using random numbers in the comparison to make your point. Old thornmail reflected on bonus armor and based on the amount of damage incoming. The amount of actual damage that the champion also did also has an effect on how much they were healing. So you can't just pull a random number for old thornmail damage and for healing, and then use a random number for new thornmail damage and keep healing constant.

How much damage old thornmail did and how much you healed were directly linked by a common variable (how hard the attack hit). That is uncoupled in the new thornmail. How much damage thornmail returns is completely unrelated to how hard the incoming hit was, and thus how much health the attacker got back.

Look at it this way:

Old thornmail was 15% damage taken (premitigation)+25% bonus armor. If you assume they just had old thornmail (no other armor) then they had 100 bonus armor. To get 50 return damage then, that means 25 damage of thronmail damage was 15% of the incoming damage (other 25 was 25% of bonus armor(100))), so the premitigation damage was 166. (Note, ignoring attacker's MR). Lifesteal is calculated post mitigation (actual damage). Thormail had a minimal of 100 armor, so ignoring pen it was a 83 damage attack. 50 health back from that would require 60% lifesteal...which is unrealistically high. If you assume 30% lifesteal then you get ~25 health back. So you end up with 75 health, not 100.

Now lets look at new thornmail in same situation. Lets say you do the same premitagted damage as before (166). New thornmail has 75 armor, and with just that armor item is doing 32.5 return damage. Now the actual damage the attacker was doing is~ 94 (as new thornmail has less armor). so you were healing for ~28 per attack (again at 30% lifesteal). That is cut by 40% (GW) so actually healing ~17 per attack. So you end up with ~84.5 health.

Is it as strong as old thornmail? No. But it is still strong enough were you can't heal off of it.

Remember all these numbers do not include any pen or attackers MR.

cocacolalips1 votes

It was a simplification of the actual maths to get the point across, maths which people have done in length in other topics. example: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/6n9v24/thornmail_vs_ticklemail_a_comparison/

but I think my example was still too complicated for the average reader, how would you math it in one line worth of text to dispel the idea that if it applies grievous wound then it must be better? maybe something like "against adcs, old thornmail negated more lifesteal by returning more damage in the first place, new thornmail may cut incoming healing in half, but it also deals a lot less damage, and the difference damage healed - damage returned by thornmail is actually worse off, thus thornmail is worse against adcs"

Darkdemon6533 votes

That's not the problem. The problem is it was a weak item and was made weaker. The intent for what TMail is supposed to be/do is not relevant to that issue.

Glory ln Death10 votes

No, the purpose of the item is very important when talking about the item's power level. If the item's purpose was to deal damage and let you kill your enemies while afk, then yes, it is weaker.

But that isn't the purpose. The purpose is to counter lifesteal and auto-attackers with built-in sustain. With that purpose in mind, it is stronger now than before, and can more easily be buffed or nerfed for that purpose.

ProfDrDeath6 votes

... With that purpose in mind, it is stronger now than before, ...

Yes and no.

New Thornmail is stronger against moderate and/or non-scaling sustain effects. Think Irelia's W, non-BT single item Lifesteal, Xin's W, things like that.

Against strong Lifesteal (ADC-level Lifesteal fueled by critical strikes, ArPen and protected by MR), it is less efficient, even with the Grievous Wounds. Before, it was not possible to outheal Thornmail without specifically building for it. Nowadays, it is.

A six item ADC with IE, Zeal upgrade, BT, LDR, Mercurial, Boots has some 87 MR and 30% Lifesteal and 400 AD. He deals, on average, 700 damage per attack, 840 with full effect of LDR.

A tank with Thornmail, Dead Man's Plate and 90 base Armor (+ about 20 from runes and masteries) has 270 Armor, 180 of which is bonus (Thornmail flat damage part: 45 magic damage). Against the ADC, the tank still has about 210 Armor after LDR.

The ADC deals 271 damage to the tank per attack, healing for 30% of that or 81 HP.

Thornmail dealt 15% of 840 + 45 as return magic damage. Total 171 magic damage. After resistances, the ADC would have taken 91 damage.

91 damage > 81 HP healed.

Even with 30% Lifesteal, ArPen and MR against a 2 Armor item tank, an ADC would have still taken damage on attacking said tank.

Assuming the tank has equal Armor with new Thornmail for ease of comparison:

With new Thornmail, the damage effect does 25 + 27 = 52 damage. After resistances, 28 damage.

With the Grievous Wounds effect, the ADC heals for 18% of damage dealt, or 49 HP.

49 HP healt > 28 damage dealt.

Glory ln Death5 votes

Yes. I agree with that.

I think it's good that it can deal with different types of healing now and doesn't obliterate non-healers at the same time. It probably will need adjustments of some sort, but it's in a position where it can be both impactful and balanced.

nGio3 votes

WE GOT IT! Does every post have to be the same damn thing? No one wants it to be an offensive item, so you're only arguing with yourself.

What people want is a legitimate upgrade from Bramble. Bramble is great, and Thornmail is a steaming pile of shit. 2k gold for 40 armor, 250 health, and 15% attack speed reduction to enemies targeting you? What the fuck?!

Bramble should only be upgraded to Thornmail if you have nothing else to buy. No one wants Thornmail to 1 shot the precious adcs, we just want pinatas that don't pop when the first kid is up to bat.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

i have stated it was always a niche of a defensive item and not the go to or only armor item to be bought in a game.

i argued that it is meant to be gotten vs a team with multiple auto attack based champs

i have argued it is best when paired with other armor/hp items

it is no different.

people need to stop thinking that it was a bad item before and that it is end all be all of the only armor item you need in a game.

toorazamaki2 votes

I am so glad someone finally talks about this. It was always stupid and felt bad when I would build full crit but kill myself to people who had thornmail and stacked armor and health. Their base damage on spells and the thornmail literally kill me as an adc without lifesteal which was not fun at all. I agree that defense should make you hard to kill, but not be an offensive tool. I've been killed by sion, rammus, braum, leona who buy thornmail with other health and armor stacking items. People say well just don't focus them, yet if you ignore them, they kill you. The health and resistances from an adc is so small that the base damage from almost everyone is significant that you cannot ignore them unless you went for defensive options like lifesteal, some armor, or some magic resist. I am speaking at least for season 6 or early season 7 and not currently as I have no been up against thornmail users at the moment. I'll give it a week.

Mimr1 votes

{quoted}

I am so glad someone finally talks about this. It was always stupid and felt bad when I would build full crit but kill myself to people who had thornmail and stacked armor and health. Their base damage on spells and the thornmail literally kill me as an adc without lifesteal which was not fun at all. I agree that defense should make you hard to kill, but not be an offensive tool. I've been killed by sion, rammus, braum, leona who buy thornmail with other health and armor stacking items. People say well just don't focus them, yet if you ignore them, they kill you. The health and resistances from an adc is so small that the base damage from almost everyone is significant that you cannot ignore them unless you went for defensive options like lifesteal, some armor, or some magic resist. I am speaking at least for season 6 or early season 7 and not currently as I have no been up against thornmail users at the moment. I'll give it a week.

Building full crit without sustain is a rust-tier tactic anyway, if you do that as an ADC you deserve to get rekt, thornmail or no.

toorazamaki1 votes

thats why i play gangplank :P

Succubús GF2 votes

Rammus was at 52%. He is now at 56%, if he gets one more buff I swear to god I'm uninstalling. What a horrible fucking joke this was

Buff Rammus' reflection damage, not Thornmail's.

DragonShea1 votes

Thornmail being remade into a Anti-Lifesteal item ain't too bad. It also makes it good against sustain AD champs and a big fuck you to Rhaast.

Automated Riven1 votes

Don't forget aatrox. At least rhaast can somewhat play around it since he doesn't actually have to auto attack to get the sustain. Aatrox is just fucked.

Mimr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K87pb6hL,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2017-07-14T08:06:53.789+0000)

Don't forget aatrox. At least rhaast can somewhat play around it since he doesn't actually have to auto attack to get the sustain. Aatrox is just fucked.

Aatrox will be getting a rework anyway. Don't know how far off it is but it's pretty much 100% confirmed that he will get one.

3TWarrior1 votes

why did he get a mini-rework if they were going to rework him?

I have a feeling that this will end up like Vayne during the marksman update where "well, we can't nerf her too much because she is going to be addressed in the upcoming marksman class update" and was contradictory to her needs

where instead of nerfing her(starting off with -3 AD before the update)...they made her stronger. Her problem at the time though, was that she was one of the weakest of the marksman class after the update, only greater than Ashe and Sivir to my knowledge, but her strengths were increased, so when others fell out of favor, she re-emerged as a monster

Mimr1 votes

{quoted}

why did he get a mini-rework if they were going to rework him?

I have a feeling that this will end up like Vayne during the marksman update where "well, we can't nerf her too much because she is going to be addressed in the upcoming marksman class update" and was contradictory to her needs

where instead of nerfing her(starting off with -3 AD before the update)...they made her stronger. Her problem at the time though, was that she was one of the weakest of the marksman class after the update, only greater than Ashe and Sivir to my knowledge, but her strengths were increased, so when others fell out of favor, she re-emerged as a monster

I thought Riot stated those were smaller-scale changes to make him more playable while they work on a bigger rwowrk.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

Thornmail being remade into a Anti-Lifesteal item ain't too bad. It also makes it good against sustain AD champs and a big fuck you to Rhaast.

Old Thornmail was yet an anti-lifesteal item, dude Basically you were passively dealing back damage when hit, which in turn canzeroed any kind of lifesteal the attacker had (heck, it dealt back considerably more than that)

They fucked up Thornmail first when they buffed up/introduced other stronger armor items (I mean, why get Thornmail when you could get old Zhonya, Sunfire, Randuin, Zz'Rot, busted Deadman's Plate/Streak) and once it was fallen out of use they made it far weaker trying to change it, especially in a period where burst damage (which Thornmail is not good against) was actually far stronger

The new item is actually suspect, imho, I fear something could be redundant between the HP and Grevious Wounds

Violet Fields1 votes

Look at the bright side. Tanks can ACTUALLY build against Draven Caitlyn Graves who build item 3812 item 3072 item 3142 ... You get the idea.

Naching1 votes

Now really they heal more than before and the tank take more damage ..so no bright side.

Automated Riven3 votes

This is completely false. Don't make me break out the math on you.

Sir Fuzzi1 votes

..Thornmail got Wounds?

Who was relying on it so badly for reflect that GW is a downgrade???

Glory ln Death1 votes

Rammus. Everyone else who is upset about it never actually bought the item in the first place.

C9 Squeeky 1 votes

I agree with you 110%, plus Rammus players should be happy. Rammus got buffed and his win rate % went up, and he still rushes thornmail after cinderhulk.

Cujo1 votes

Except new Thornmail prevent's even less healing than it originally did.

And why would you think it wasn't meant as a damage item? The item has always had easily twice, up to four times as much damage up until this patch. I don't see you quoting any dev from Riot backing up your assertions. Saying 'PSA: Thornmail was never about damage' is very flimsy. Besides that, it starts you off with the tone that anyone's opinion about why Thornmail's damage was important is immediately wrong simply because you believe Thornmail's was only ever supposed to serve one specific purpose. So, as long as you see it being modeled around that, disagreements about what is being lost don't have a relationship with the item's actual value.

I don't see the point of requiring a narrow scope of what an item is or should be in order to discuss it. Why limit any item to only having potential qualities based around the one strongest aspect of champion archetypes they are most easily accessible to?

The issue people have with the item's change are more than just about the drastic fall in damage. The damage is a very important part of it overall. Specifically though, the loss of damage itself definitely shouldn't have to be regarded as forgettable just because it's typical users don't have 'Damage' as the highest scoring attribute on their star chart.

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