@Riot. What Would Be The Main Goals For a Future Rune System Overhaul?

Solideus··44 votes·3,450 views

For example: Rune diversity? Evaluating Tier 1-2 runes? Unpopular Runes? Rune Balance? "Noob trap"-runes? It's role in the "IP economy", next to champion purchases and such? Primary vs. Secondary runes? Lack of appealing runes for certain roles/strategies/etc? The rune combiner? The rune-systems complexity for new players and its role throughout leveling 1-30?

Would any of these be priority goals, or something else? What is most problematic about runes currently? Say, what are the top three goals?

The problems with a sudden influx of IP having to be spent after an overhaul has been mentioned, how could that be approached to soften the blow?

46 Comments

Ofalling8 votes

When my friend told me about this cool game in beta called League of Legends, the business model sounded great. No pay-to-win 'cause you have to buy the out-of-game progression with fake money, not real money. Nowadays it's dated and there've been soooo much better.

Tons of newer free-to-play games have done it a bunch better, and they didn't have the advantage of an established, huge playerbase to kind of guarantee they'd remain profitable no matter what. Path of Exile, for example, is by a tiny little indie studio and isn't one of the biggest games in the world. And yet they manage to have a fully not-annoying, not remotely pay-to-win system with just cosmetics and extra bank tabs for sale. And yet League's model is, frankly, by today's standards, awful.

The fact is, if you want a satisfactory champion pool, you really have to spend money on champions to have enough IP to buy runes. And then there's the fact that, yes, there are substandard runes. And then there's the fact that there are primary and secondary runes at all, which is just bad, and they aren't shown differently in the store. It really feels like it's intentionally trying to trick you. And it's never properly tutorialized. It feels predatory. Like they're trying to trick you into wasting IP so you then spend RP because you didn't have enough IP for that champion now. Which you wouldn't anyway, because the rate is so painfully slow.

When I started I bought a bunch of health runes 'cause I figured hey, everyone needs health! Then turns out two-thirds of those were awful. Because the game never told me about that little thing. So then I had to go on the wiki to figure stuff the heck out. Never a great sign.

So even if runes aren't revamped, at least properly marking them in the store as primary and secondary would be kinda necessary, frankly.

And tier 2 runes should just be done away with. Another consumer-unfriendly trap. And the rune combiner is just plain almost useless. Yay, a random (probably useless) rune of one tier up. So if I'm upgrading from tier 1 to 3, my odds of getting anything useful are next to nothing.

Many a time have I lamented the fact that my friends play League and not Dota, as even though I like League better as a game, the business model is just that much worse.

Now on to how runes are just innately awful. I've mostly played, since before level 10, with a level 30 friend or two. This probably meant I got better a fair amount faster. I know for a fact I've been matched with and against higher level players regularly. They have an advantage I don't. Full runes and masteries.

That's just dumb. What is gained from not keeping things a truly even playing field? It just makes things, well, unfair. It makes it that much more appealing to just stop and go back to Dota where you're not at a disadvantage, even if you're still horrible.

My opinion on what should be done to "revamp" runes then? Do away with them, refund the IP. And do away with masteries while you're at it.

Does anyone actually like either thing? I'd believe it if someone said they like masteries, but runes? Heck no.

So maybe combine the two in some way. Because people do like progression. Or at least it's addictive and manipulates you into feeling tied to your account. But there should not be this maaaaassive IP sink. That's just crappy. And skins and unlocked champions make you feel invested in your account already. I've spent like $5 on the game and I certainly feel tied to my account now, less interested in playing alts.

And it's nothing to do with the "progress" of that account's runes.

Now what're the odds Riot actually does this? When it manipulates people into spending more money? Which is fine to an extent, Riot's a business, and they can TAKE my money for a plush Poro and some pretty skins. But when they get into consumer-unfriendly, predatory, evil, bad, doubleplusungoodness... well, time to raise a stink hopefully?

not a starburst1 votes

I'm against tossing out runes entirely, simply on the basis that it would drastically change the game balance. 4.20 is a mess. A beautiful, wonderful, captivating mess, but they're still going to spend the next two or three patches fixing it.

Ofalling3 votes

What's wrong with drastically changing the game balance?

Of course it would do that, but it would both make the game easier to balance, and make it just inherently more balanced.

The5lacker1 votes

That's what the Preseason is for.

If you have something that's broken, you shouldn't be afraid to fix it even if you think it might break it because, interestingly, a broken system that breaks isn't exactly a problem.

ValyrianBlade7 votes

I hope if they overhaul the rune system, any ip spent on runes will be refunded and runes returned to the store.

Worst case to any player is they simply have to go buy back the same runes.

Worst case to any player if they don't: the player has thousands of ip locked in sub-par runes and either can't afford to buy better ones or has to spend ip they should be able to sirens elsewhere on better runes instead.

I honestly don't see many problems with the rune system though. Just:

  1. remove Tier 1 and 2 runes, they're a trap
  2. unlock all runes at level 20, around this time you're experienced enough to customize
  3. introduce more unique runes (e.g. tenacity, these could be Quintessences only if necessary)

Optional: 4) make a new lower level set of runes to replace Tier 1 and 2 that are available for free (so there isn't a huge difference in early game power between a level 19 and level 20, but it's still worth buying runes). These could possibly not be usable after level 20, or not be used in ranked at least. 5) more role specific runes (e.g. runes that help fighting jungle monsters, so that more champions could be viable junglers). Riot would probably love this as it necessitates buying more runes and rune pages to compete, I'm not so sure about it since I like being able to just use my ad rune page when jungling and not have a noticeable disadvantage.

SmokingPuffin12 votes
  1. remove Tier 1 and 2 runes, they're a trap

I recommend any new player buy tier 1 rune sets for AD and AP champions. They cost so little and are quite helpful. Really takes the pressure off buying a full set of tier 3 runes ASAP.

I haven't figured out any reason for tier 2 runes to exist.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Yeah a full tier 1 runepage costs 1200 IP max, and still gives you half the stats of tier 3.

MrBuffington1 votes

that's what the rune combiner is for #sarcasm

SmokingPuffin7 votes

Probably the most important goal for Riot on runes is not to touch them. Pretty much any change you make to the rune system just reminds people of how sucky runes are.

Motajo7 votes

I want some serious organization and consistency in runes. Reds are for x, yellows for y, blues for z, and quints having triple (or whatever number for balance, just make sure it's always that multiple) the value of the other colors. Stat per level runes are standardized at matching the flat gain runes at level 6 (like Riot started doing, but they didn't finish). Either get rid of the stupid ones (energy regen per level, looking at you), or make them actually worth taking in a niche scenario. Okay, energy regen per level should still probably be canned, but I digress.

Others here have already suggested overhauling or removing Tier 1 and 2 runes, so I have nothing to add there.

Junkο5 votes

removal of runes all together would be the best

Kaisha2 votes

Their main goal will be to make them more cash. All else I imagine is secondary.

Ironclad Dragon2 votes

I want them to have a satisfying jingle when slotted.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

I think the main thing holding them back is the IP economy. may people have put a lot of IP into runes and they should feel like that wasn't wasted, but there should be a way to get into runes without having to dump unreasonable amounts of IP into the new system. so they can't raise or lower the value of the runes lest they piss off the new players or the legacy players. the cost of runes is one of the largest problems many people have with runes and it's probably the main reason they aren't reworked.

bump because i want an answer from a red on this :)

Rainbowgasm1 votes

I think the main thing holding them back is the IP economy. may people have put a lot of IP into runes and they should feel like that wasn't wasted, but there should be a way to get into runes without having to dump unreasonable amounts of IP into the new system. so they can't raise or lower the value of the runes lest they piss off the new players or the legacy players. the cost of runes is one of the largest problems many people have with runes and it's probably the main reason they aren't reworked.

bump because i want an answer from a red on this :)

ip has been refunded to people affected by rune changes in the past.

Scuttler Slayer1 votes

If Riot refunds my IP spent on Runes (if they remove runes), I wouldn't feel as though I've wasted anything... I would love for them to remove runes and just refund me.

Dude, they couldn't care less about what Legacy players want. If they did, they would not have re-released Halloween/ Christmas skins. Or, if they had, they would have re-colored them. No one actually cares about the ugly load-screen effect for "Legacy skins". It's the fucking load-screen. Half the players don't even look at it. I bought my skin for its IN-GAME look. Not its load-screen. Yeah, I'm still very bitter about the re-releases.

But I have a hard time seeing them remove runes. Like it has been mentioned, they are the primary reason people spend $$ on RP to buy champs. No necessary IP use = plummet in RP sales. And clearly, as demonstrated by the Halloween/ Christmas skins fiasco (yes, fiasco), a profit is far more important than player satisfaction.

windwolf7771 votes

Off topic but can you explain the Xmas and Halloween thing? I haven't been able to find any explanation on line

Scuttler Slayer1 votes

Explain what exactly? I'm gonna go for a broad explanation, even though I'm not sure what you're asking for.

Basically, Riot have released "Limited Edition" skins since Christmas right after Beta (or maybe it was still during Beta. I'm not sure. I didn't start until around the first summer after the Beta).

They had Christmas and Halloween skins. They'd release something like 5-8 every time. They'd be brand new. It was generally understood, although apparently not legally true, that these "Limited Edition" skins would never return to the store. Obviously, people would buy them because: 1) It shows how long you've been playing for - like owning a special Beta skin (UFO Corki (EU) or King Rammus (US)) or UrfSkin Warwick. 2) They were usually pretty cool. 3) It was "now or never". Then, for some reason - some say it was the new players whining about not having those skins, others blame Riot for being lazy and not wanting to redesign 5-8 new skins every time - Riot decided to re-release these older skins with one or two new skins (e.g. Haunted Zyra).

There were massive complaints, but almost only from the relatively small community of "older" players. Complaints from ~25% of player-base < profits/ joy of 75% of player base (in Riot's logic. It would normally make sense, but when that 25% represents the people who have been supporting you the longest, I think the equation should change...)

Anyway, to "compensate" players who already owned those skins, Riot were "generous" enough to give each skin a gold glow or whatever to the Load Screen image. Personally, I think it looks worse for most skins. Again, I want the difference to be visible IN GAME. Not for 45seconds before the game actually starts. Riot also reimbursed 100% of RP spent on those older skins. (e.g. If you bought 3 skins (totaling 1800RP) that would be re-released, they gave you 1800RP). Again, this was super cool, somewhat normal, but still cool. However, I still was attached to the "old-player" significance of those skins.

Someone had suggested Riot "re-color" the skins before re-releasing them (e.g. Zombie Brand have different colored skin/ clothes than the original). This would have been totally fair. Alas, it never happened.

Bottom line: I'm still unhappy about it and Riot made HUGE amounts of money. GGWP Rito.

Does this clear anything up?

windwolf7771 votes

Yes. Very sorry if my needing an explanation annoyed you. I can see how annoyed I would be if I was one of the original owners and they were just released again like nothing. Even with the reimbursement.

Scuttler Slayer2 votes

Lol no worries, you not being perfectly clear to me did not annoy me. Glad I answered your question correctly.

Sukishoo1 votes

-"Noob trap"-runes?

I'd like to know what you consider these to be

Anidan20 votes

If there is a better term for the + max Energy, + energy recovery, and reduced death time quintessences, I'd like to hear it.

Sukishoo10 votes

Well I was just asking which runes cause we all know there are some pretty stupid runes in the game that hardly anyone uses. I just like seeing which ones people consider them to be.

Anidan5 votes

Ah, carry on then, please accept my apology for sounding stand-offish there.

Junkο1 votes

Every rune except AD/AP/Armor/MR/AS runes are noob traps.

Max energy, energy recovery, max mana (except maybe Ryze), gold per sec, lifesteal, crit chance etc..

AbodyHUN6662 votes

But full crit Trynda rune page...

Junkο1 votes

Congrats your crits now deal the damage you would have done with a normal AD rune page. Nevermind that crit from items like IE or Stattik is gonna be wasted.

Sukishoo1 votes

Have you met Yasuo, GP or Trynd? The crit chance runes are made for them cause having that early increased chance makes them hurt so much more.

Lifesteal was a great one on ADCs, at least till they updated the AS runes, but it can still be useful. GP5 are pretty useful as well if you want to maximize gold.

Junkο2 votes

Well crit chance runes are good on Yasuo, GP and Trynd yes, but useless on everyone else.

Lifesteal can still be good on some carries that don't really on AS as much.

But GP5 are thrash. I ran gold eals + quints because i thought it actually did something. Then i ran the math and in an average 40 min game you get like 500 gold

Duke Anax1 votes

Reduced death and revive are actually used on Dominion and sometimes on Treeline.

And on Karthus and Kog, planning to die is actually a valid strategy. (when used right)

Syche3 votes

'those things you build on kennen that make the entire world want you to die' are a pretty good term for the +energy runes.

Junkο1 votes

Tbh with the buffs he is getting next patch(or already got idk) he won't need the energy runes anymore.

Wingling1 votes

IDK, I've heard people swear by the energy regen. I mean, yeah dump the regen/lvl and max energy stuff but I imagine flat energy regen is worth salvaging.

Quepha11 votes

-"Noob trap"-runes?

I'd like to know what you consider these to be

every tier below 3 all secondary stat blues and yellows except for gold yellows (why are they secondary stat when they're the only non-quint option for gold?)

The5lacker1 votes

Tiers 1 and 2.

57740961_DEL1 votes

I think runes should enable gameplay styles. I once saw a Shen with 40 cdr who was running some kind of Tauntlock with energy runes and they had a jungle rammus for the early game.

SOS Tsubaki1 votes

Bumping for a red post :3

Holgranth1 votes

I would be really glad to see at least some discussion on this from Riot.

Zac x Me1 votes

Are they actually going to do a whole rune revamp this preseason? As far as I can recall the rune changes that happened during season 4 were only small and not the actual full rune revamp they had planned (because of worlds).

Just wondering.

Other than that, I'd say, if Tier 1 and 2 runes are to stay, change the rune combiner to allow you to choose which higher tier rune to get instead of it being random. (choice depends on the value of the tier1/2 runes compared to the available tier 3 ones)

And ofcourse, do not allow tier 3 runes to be put into the rune combiner anymore.

What Is Smite1 votes

Just upvote the shit out of this so that Riot will pay attention to us

Kingsgrave1 votes

Adopt Dawngate's system

Ruberox1 votes

I would prefer if runes like energy regen and max energy weren't gone for good. Say what you may but while they may not be good runes it's still customization. They aren't a trap if someone plays an energy champion and feels they could use an extra ability if they only had the energy to do it early on. Just make it where you can only buy such runes at level 30 so the player knows if it's really worth it to them or not.

Also reduce the price of certain runes. I can understand why hybrid pen runes cost 820, but why the hell do crit damage runes cost so much?

Cro0031 votes

I would like to have more ways to customize my champs for 'niche' roles.

Teridax681 votes

One big issue I have with runes, on top of most of the issues you listed, is that right now they represent a significant amount of power creep. The current jungle and the early game damage of most champions is balanced around a full page of Tier 3 runes, especially with regards to armor and MR runes. In an ideal League, new players should be able to pick up jungler champions and start jungling without the need for a full set of runes, yet in the current setup that would be impossible, as fully-equipped junglers have so much more power in comparison that they'd just breeze through their first clear.

Marinaras Trench1 votes

Here are my suggestions. (These are all just ideas) Runes are free for every1, starting at level 10. (Unlikely but possible) or Runes are all 1000ip each, but they come in packages of 9/3 (9 for RBY and 3 For Quints) A RUNE TUTORIAL MUST BE INCLUDED (Just update your tutorial in general) Add Runes that are more interesting such as Reduced damage from monsters, Extra damage towards champions below 33% etc. MAKE SCALING RUNES SURPASS FLAT RUNES AT LEVEL 11 FOR ALL OF THEM. (This could be tweaked, but I would like it to be a choice, not a requirement to go one way or the other) Make it so as you reach level 10/20/30 you receive an extra rune page. (total of 5) Make runes buyable in packages for rp.

For masteries I think they are alright, although I think the defensive tree needs a little work.

Katunga Jones1 votes

As a noob when I got to level 30 and they cut you off, that was shock. I used a lot of ip to buy champs, still do cause im already 62 champs in and want them all. If I knew then what I know now I would have only spent RP on champs and everything would have went to Tier 3 runes. I would have "paid to win".

Its fine if they keep it the way it is, BUT there has to be a show for it. You can walk into a game SAME CHAMP, SAME SKILL, the other guy has a full page of tier 3 runes.

I got a mix page of T1 to t3 regen runes and another page of tier 1 critchance. So I rarely have ever had a "fair fight".

If I was a billionaire. Day 1 I buy all my champs, pay up IP boost, I wouldn't get xp boost since it would hurt my overall ip gains(right?) and only spend ip on getting all the T3 runes.

FAIR FIGHT is the phrase I would throw around. Cause see if you got no runes and your up against guys with tier 3 runes, something has to announce well your skill is SO GOOD that you had to get matched up against these guys with tier 3s.

It takes more skill to win without runes.

They might as well introduce NERF RUNES where we purposely nerf ourselves because we are just so badass.

Imagine if I had T3 Runes! Jax

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