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Diving Fighters vs. ADC's

Alytrox··2 votes·1,701 views

I've just laned with Aatrox against a good Caitlyn (Twisted Treeline), and i come to realize, i have absolutely NO chance of 1v1'ing a good Cait. And i'm talking about a 1v1 where i hit every skillshot i got (Q knock-up + E slow + use of flash vs. a good Cait trap / a good Cait dash + use of flash & heal). No, with all summs up, you can't fight a semi-mobile ADC as a Diving Fighter. At least not with Aatrox.

Isn't an ADC supposed to be "weak", when there's no one to peel around for them ? What's the purpose of a Diving Fighter, if you're doing a good dive (hitting all skillshots), but you still can't stick to the target ? I mean in TF i have 0 chances of success in a balanced situation (where we are all at the same level of itemization/gold).

Now, my questions are :

1). How do other divers deal with ADC's 1v1 ? (i'm a OTP Aatrox) 2). Are ADC's supposed to 1v1 everyone ?

Please consider we are talking about a balanced 1v1, not where you are 4+ lvls & 3 items ahead.

25 Comments

Sir Hammerlock6 votes

Aatrox is just bad. Pure and simple, he always has been. Caitlyn is one of the strongest ADCs right now, especially if the user is skilled. Aatrox relies too much on his autoattacks to be useful against mobile ADCs.

dangopee2 votes

Most fighters/bruisers are in a terrible spot right now and the only viable ones are ones that can be built full tank but even then actual tanks are just a better pick. Divers are useless without follow up now and cant solo much of anything. ADC have too many safety nets not to mention they usually have a cancer support right next to them at all times anyway.

The Whamboozler2 votes

AT BEST, you're proving that you can't 1v1 a good Cait as Aatrox. Not an overall thing. Aatrox has one gap-closer and very little hard CC. You jump in, she nets out... tada.

But you can most certainly 1v1 an adc as a "dive fighter". Diana. BAM. Land Q, go in with R, she nets. R again. She's out of tricks. She dies. That's only one example. The point is, AATROX is the issue here, not Cait. He's just a sub-par champ right now. He's 100% based around melee attacks making him VERY easy to render useless if you stay out of his reach. He also has very few ways to force you into that fight that he wants. He's... actually pretty kitable. He's not a great pick vs champs like Cait. He's not a great pick overall, but his best matches are against melee skirmishers that he can outsustain if they all-in and poke down if they try to play passive. Good luck finding a favorable fight for him tho... the common picks these days all kinda poop on him if they're any good.

Alytrox1 votes

{quoted}

AT BEST, you're proving that you can't 1v1 a good Cait as Aatrox. Not an overall thing. Aatrox has one gap-closer and very little hard CC. You jump in, she nets out... tada.

But you can most certainly 1v1 an adc as a "dive fighter". Diana. BAM. Land Q, go in with R, she nets. R again. She's out of tricks. She dies. That's only one example. The point is, AATROX is the issue here, not Cait. He's just a sub-par champ right now. He's 100% based around melee attacks making him VERY easy to render useless if you stay out of his reach. He also has very few ways to force you into that fight that he wants. He's... actually pretty kitable. He's not a great pick vs champs like Cait. He's not a great pick overall, but his best matches are against melee skirmishers that he can outsustain if they all-in and poke down if they try to play passive. Good luck finding a favorable fight for him tho... the common picks these days all kinda poop on him if they're any good.

So, we basically have only ONE diving fighter that can stick to it's target ? Also, i would make Diana a hybrid assassin, more than a true diving fighter.

What happens to Jax/Xin/Vi/Trynda, etc. ?

The Whamboozler1 votes

Jax wins if he times his stun juuuust right, or he just farms up and outscales her. Endgame Jax is NASTY.

Xin probably gets kited unless he's VERY fed, since he also only has one gap-closer and his only hard CC requires him to land three attacks.

Vi wins. Hard. She can dash in with Q, then mash R when Cait nets and get to her... and then Cait is boned. gg ez

Trynd loses brutally until he gets his ult. Then he can do whatever the heck he wants and Cait can't really stop him.

But yeah... "diving fighter" isn't... really a role. There are champs who can stick to their targets pretty easily, and those are the ones who can handle semi-mobile adc's like Cait, Ez, Corki, etc. Aatrox isn't the best man for that job. You want someone with brutally hard engage like Jarvan or Vi... OR you want an assassin, like Zed, Diana or Talon.

Alytrox1 votes

{quoted}

Jax wins if he times his stun juuuust right, or he just farms up and outscales her. Endgame Jax is NASTY.

Xin probably gets kited unless he's VERY fed, since he also only has one gap-closer and his only hard CC requires him to land three attacks.

Vi wins. Hard. She can dash in with Q, then mash R when Cait nets and get to her... and then Cait is boned. gg ez

Trynd loses brutally until he gets his ult. Then he can do whatever the heck he wants and Cait can't really stop him.

But yeah... "diving fighter" isn't... really a role. There are champs who can stick to their targets pretty easily, and those are the ones who can handle semi-mobile adc's like Cait, Ez, Corki, etc. Aatrox isn't the best man for that job. You want someone with brutally hard engage like Jarvan or Vi... OR you want an assassin, like Zed, Diana or Talon.

Yeah, against semi-mobile ADCS.

What are you going to do against Lucian/Vayne/Sivir/Tristana ? Absolutely 0 chances of kill. Divers my ass...

The Whamboozler1 votes

Vi still wins pretty hard against most of them, actually.

What is your point with this? "Divers", which again... isn't a real role, aren't supposed to auto-win against adc's. Or anyone, really. The people you are talking about are fighters and bruisers. Big, meaty champs who can do a lot of damage but are prone to being kited and are often melee range. ADC's who kite well and duel well are SUPPOSED to counter them and have a fair chance of winning.

Do you wanna kill a mobile adc? Bring an assassin! That is what assassins do. You're just complaining about a role that is supposed to do something... being able to do it! Vayne is SUPPOSED to be a strong duelist. That's what she does. She lacks poke, waveclear and her "escape" isn't really very good. It's used to dodge skillshots and DUEL. She duels and tank-shreds. I don't even LIKE vayne, but you are complaining about her for doing what she is designed to do.

If you wanna dive in and pop an adc, play an assassin. Hell, most of them build tanky these days anyways... so you can even call yourself a "dive fighter" or whatever if you like.

Alytrox1 votes

So this basically it's just an Aatrox issue ?

How would Jax/Xin Zhao do against a good Cait ?

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

{quoted}

So this basically it's just an Aatrox issue ?

How would Jax/Xin Zhao do against a good Cait ?

They'd eat her alive.

Tryndamere would easily kill her 1v1.

Master Yi would kill her before she could use her net.

Wukong? Cait would be dead before she recovered from his knockup.

Fiora? Lol, she kills her.

Yasuo? SORYE GE TON!

Irelia? Might be able to kill Cait within the duration of her stun.

Warwick? Ult nearly one shots her.

Olaf? Unpeelable, crushes her.

All of these champions can usually casually kill any adc except Vayne 1v1 (and some can still kill Vayne, it just might be harder).

I gotta ask though: at what stage of the game was this? Frankly, a good Aatrox late game can probably kill a good Cait late game 1v1. But early on? You're too fucking squishy, and her range is so huge she is going to bully you.

Caítlyn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JdA9AevA,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-05-13T08:15:27.957+0000)

They'd eat her alive.

I can vouch for this.

Alytrox1 votes

What if we'd have a Probelt item like mages do, that gives something like AD+AS or ARP (so tank won't abuse it much) and make it melee only ?

Njallum1 votes

Oh gods no, I think that'd be a pretty bad idea. It'd break the game in two, can you imagine someone like Darius with a gapcloser, what about Garen? How about Skarner, it'd negate their weaknesses of kiteability, and allow them to consistently get into anyone's face with their high-threat zones.

Alytrox1 votes

{quoted}

Oh gods no, I think that'd be a pretty bad idea. It'd break the game in two, can you imagine someone like Darius with a gapcloser, what about Garen? How about Skarner, it'd negate their weaknesses of kiteability, and allow them to consistently get into anyone's face with their high-threat zones.

No it won't. Have you ever played with those champions against a good, coordinated team ? There is a reason those champions are not played in LCS

Njallum1 votes

I believe Darius was played a few times last year at least, and to my credit, those did not include a gapclosing item for melees. If they did, they would most likely break the game in two, as being in the zone of someone like Darius is a lot more dangerous than being in the zone of a mage most of the time. Darius will absolutely murder you if he manages to get that close.

Which is why he's balanced around low mobility and remaining rather kiteable. I don't deny that Bruisers and the like aren't strong at the moment, but I don't think giving them a gapcloser is the way to go neccessarily.

Alytrox1 votes

I'm talking early (i tried all-in @ lvl 3 with ~70% hp - where i landed every skillshot - used even Exhaust - got rekt pretty hard).

I've then tried @ lvl 6 to burst her down again. Here i considered that her ult is usually useless against me. So the only problem was : i can stick around her with my ult range, enough to kill her ? I found out i can't. And as soon as i started going back, ofc she rekt me again with her ult.

Late- game : Only if i have PD.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

I'm talking early (i tried all-in @ lvl 3 with ~70% hp - where i landed every skillshot - used even Exhaust - got rekt pretty hard).

I've then tried @ lvl 6 to burst her down again. Here i considered that her ult is usually useless against me. So the only problem was : i can stick around her with my ult range, enough to kill her ? I found out i can't. And as soon as i started going back, ofc she rekt me again with her ult.

Late- game : Only if i have PD.

Your Aatrox build was fucking weird.

Build more defense and attack speed. Could go Titanic and Guinsoo's for your only damage items then full tank and would probably kill her. I normally like Blade of the Ruined King but their team was all burst without any tankiness, so itemizing against their burst damage with resists and health would have gone a long way.

Also, please don't ever buy phantom dancer on Aatrox.

Alytrox1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JdA9AevA,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-05-13T09:27:03.805+0000)

Your Aatrox build was fucking weird.

Build more defense and attack speed. Could go Titanic and Guinsoo's for your only damage items then full tank and would probably kill her. I normally like Blade of the Ruined King but their team was all burst without any tankiness, so itemizing against their burst damage with resists and health would have gone a long way.

Also, please don't ever buy phantom dancer on Aatrox.

Phantom Dancer on Aatrox is the only reason i've reached Plat I with him, with a 64% winrate. R Hydra + PD + Swifntess = splitpushing for days. Here we're talking about 5v5 of course, 3v3 is another story.

But, i had to build those items because their dmg was insane.What the fuck you would do with Guinsoo's against Brand/Diana/Cait when they all have potential to one-shot you ?

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

Phantom Dancer on Aatrox is the only reason i've reached Plat I with him, with a 64% winrate. R Hydra + PD + Swifntess = splitpushing for days. Here we're talking about 5v5 of course, 3v3 is another story.

But, i had to build those items because their dmg was insane.What the fuck you would do with Guinsoo's against Brand/Diana/Cait when they all have potential to one-shot you ?

Guinsoo's is there purely for attack speed, the phantom hit, and my desperate hope that it isn't also horrible on Aatrox like it is on every other melee champion. Phantom hit does synergize with the on-hit of Titanic Hydra though.

Wait, you had to build mostly damage items because their damage was insane? I get that DD and maw have defensive components to them, but not as much as actual tank items. Randuin's Omen would have blunted her damage much more due to how crit-reliant she is. Titanic Hydra gives you some damage with the tankiness you are building.

I mean, you must have had what? Like 2,500 health late game? You could have had more health and more armour. Then you could 1v1 Cait pretty easily, since you don't need much in the way of damage items to kill an ADC. Or a Brand for that matter. Diana would have been a little harder I guess.

I'd think this would have been a good build in that game:

item 3748 item 3673 (tabi or mercs) item 3742 item 3065 item 3143 and then a situational item. I personally still would have tried Guinsoo's, but sterak's, maw of malmortius, blade of the ruined king (less for the current health damage and more for the active to chase Cait), or a deadman's would have all been fine choices I think.

Caítlyn1 votes

You couldnt kill a Caitlyn as Aatrox = "diving fighters" (whatever that means) have zero chance against any ADCs? If you cant see the fallacy in your own "logic" youre never going to improve at the game.

LeeSin Land your Q, jump, E, hydra, R, dead. DrMundo Run at her and right click. Press R for fun. Dead. Diana Land Q, R, E, R dead. Elise Land your stun. Use your combo, dead. Ekko Build tank. Dead. Evelynn Assassinate. Fiora Spam dash moves and true damage at her. Dead. Irelia Press all your buttons on her. Dead. Fizz LOL

I could keep going down this list but I think Ive made my point.

Alytrox1 votes

{quoted}

You couldnt kill a Caitlyn as Aatrox = "diving fighters" (whatever that means) have zero chance against any ADCs? If you cant see the fallacy in your own "logic" youre never going to improve at the game.

LeeSin Land your Q, jump, E, hydra, R, dead. DrMundo Run at her and right click. Press R for fun. Dead. Diana Land Q, R, E, R dead. Elise Land your stun. Use your combo, dead. Ekko Build tank. Dead. Evelynn Assassinate. Fiora Spam dash moves and true damage at her. Dead. Irelia Press all your buttons on her. Dead. Fizz LOL

I could keep going down this list but I think Ive made my point.

Your logic is flawless. Only 2 out of those champs are true Diving Fighters.

Caítlyn1 votes

{quoted}

Your logic is flawless. Only 2 out of those champs are true Diving Fighters.

Youre hopeless. I dont even know what the f*ck a "diving fighter" is, and nobody else does either.

Alytrox1 votes

{quoted}

Youre hopeless. I dont even know what the f*ck a "diving fighter" is, and nobody else does either.

FIGHTERS CLASS Fighters are durable and damage-focused melee champions that look to be in the thick of combat. Juggernauts

Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility. Divers

Divers subclass are the more mobile portion of the Fighter class. Divers excel at singling out high-priority targets to blitz toward, immediately forcing those targets (and their teammates) to deal with the diver’s presence. Divers are not as durable as the tanks or juggernauts of the world, but Divers can take their fair share of punishment while bringing enough damage to be a real kill threat if left unchecked.

Here you go you retard. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

Caítlyn1 votes

Okay according to your cute definition then LeeSin Diana Elise Fizz Fiora Irelia Ekko are all "diving fighters".

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Summoners spell, runes and masteries remove the weaknesses of the most of the champs.

Darkinlegend1 votes

Forget convention, rush a Frozen Mallet against her. You will do plenty of damage, stick to her and not be bursted down.

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