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Enchantment: Magus needs the Cinderhulk treatment.

Variks the Loyal··64 votes·3,841 views

As it stands, Enchantment: Magus doesn't help AP junglers a whole lot. The cdr and AP is nice, but it doesn't give them something they sorely need: Mana. AP junglers have to clear with their abilities, and unless you can keep the blue buff all game, you'll have to either carry around Mana Potions or build Mana items, which can set you back.

Having to build them sets back these junglers, since most Mana items (Besides RoA and Seraph's) have CDR on them. They need a new AP Jungler item that'll give them the Mana they need to clear the jungle. Here's my suggestion.

Enchantment: Manahunter

Smite item (850g) + Tear of the Goddess (720g) + 730g

+250 Mana +50% Base Mana Regen

Unique Passive: Awe: You gain 10% of your Mana as bonus Ability Power. Unique Passive: Mana Charge: Grants 4 Mana for every spell cast and mana expenditure. Max 750. Unique Passive: Manahunter: Slaying large monsters grants you +10 Mana for Mana Charge. In addition, killing a large monster instantly charges you with 4% of your missing Mana, and 6% of your missing health.

At 750 Mana, the enchantment evolves into...

Enchantment: Manalord

+1000 Mana +50% Base Mana Regen

Unique Passive: Awe: You gain 10% of your Mana as bonus ability power. Unique Passive: Manalord: Slaying a large monster instantly charges you with 5% of your missing Mana and 10% of your missing health. Unique Active: Ether Shockwave: Expend 20% of your Mana to release a shockwave, dealing Magic Damage equal to the Mana consumed, and slowing nearby enemies by 35% for 2 seconds.

You may be asking, why a shockwave? Because the majority of AP Junglers (Karthus Diana Fiddlesticks etc) are pretty close range and always near enemies, which is one of the reasons jungling comes naturally to them in the first place. And even if you're playing a real dark horse AP jungler, the Shockwave would still come in handy in case someone get's close to you and you need the slow.

Also, why the heal on large monster kill? Because AP characters are squishy, almost by nature in some cases. It'll make sure they can heal through the jungle as well as keep mana through it.

Is this item perfect? No. But its a start. Anyone else have any ideas?

103 Comments

Sire Hippington23 votes

smite midlaners ftw, 10% of mana as ap, thats 200 ap with only that item fullstacked, add in an roa and you get nearly 300 ap out of that+ a 600aoe damage active, thats totally broken.

Just add some meaningfull manasustain to Magus and everything is fine(maybe lower the ap if it becomes to powerfull)

forist11 votes

Yay Nidalee buffs. Exactly what league needs right now.

Tis a nice day6 votes

Biggest issue is the case with non-mana AP junglers. The extra mana will feel wasted :(

SwordGrunt2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tis a nice day,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JXrsgPnG,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-04-17T05:54:35.086+0000)

Biggest issue is the case with non-mana AP junglers. The extra mana will feel wasted :(

The only dedicated manaless jungler who could build that item is Zac, and I guess maybe Shen... but both would rather build Cinderhulk anyway

Restoring 5-10% of the damage dealt to monsters as mana sounds good for a passive. I don't like the idea of building it off a tear, or honestly even giving it flat mana at all - a passive to help mana issues when clearing just seems more appropriate

Venowolf3 votes

True! the AP based mana junglers are Mundo (very poorly scales), Zac and Shen (Maybe Akali) but are in weird scenarios

blueberrypancake3 votes

Mundo scales with Magic penetration very well but has only 1 ap ratio that i believe is below .2

CubedJustice1 votes

Yeah, his W scales with AP really poorly. His Q does flat damage, and his E is a steroid. Only worth building magic pen to be aggressive.

Silents4291 votes

We have no AP junglers without mana..?

CubedJustice1 votes

But we have junglers that have no real need for it, because they build other items with mana, like Gragas, or Nunu. Also, ever heard of Rengar?

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

But we have junglers that have no real need for it, because they build other items with mana, like Gragas, or Nunu. Also, ever heard of Rengar?

I've heard of Rengar but I've never heard of AP Rengar . Isn't he an AD caster more than anything?

Anyway, I think Magus is too late to help the mana of mage junglers; they need something as soon as their first blue wears off. IMO they should add an effect to item 1039 and all of its upgrades that whenever you hit a monster with a spell you get X% of its cost back (possibly including health costs for Zac Aatrox etc.). (Limit once per spell, even if it is a DoT or AOE etc.)

It's fine for mana users to have to limit their spell usage in lane, because you can just last hit minions that have been weakened by other minions until you regen some mana (and also you have item 1056 if you want it, which most mana users do). But mages need to use their spells frequently to clear, and can't generally do anything useful when they're low mana and waiting for some to regen.

P.S. This would also slightly help Khazix, who is in a bad spot right now, which Magus-specific changes wouldn't because he wants to go Warrior.

CubedJustice1 votes

Actually, Rengar used to be an AP assassin, because his empowered W could pretty much burst down an entire team.

Pæan1 votes

I'd say Zac is an AP jungler with no mana

Silents4291 votes

Except no one builds him with a Magus.

Venowolf1 votes

Like I said its a very poorly scale, but still being AP jungler

CubedJustice1 votes

That's like saying Pantheon is an AP jungler because his W scales with AP.

Venowolf1 votes

All the Mundo damage its magic.

CubedJustice1 votes

Yes. But calling Mundo an AP jungler is like calling Corki an AP carry.

Sire Hippington2 votes

which are? jungleakali maybe, but thats about it...

Egyptian2 votes

i mean they changed spell vamp items because of the mana regen was wasted on enery champs

Sire Hippington2 votes

thats less cause energie, more cause morde and vlad are the main users of spellvamp and both use health to cast spells.

However, morde and vlad are really bad junglers, kennen and rumble aren't really jungleworthy either, so whats left that doesn't need mana but would want an ap-jungleitem?

Auryiel6 votes

At first I was like hell yeah

And then I read your suggestion and I was like wtf???

10% mana as AP? I'm taking smite on every mid lane mage now

Champion Skin1 votes

Nope not on Assassins or champions relying on building damage quickly and trying to snowball

Auryiel2 votes

{quoted}

At first I was like hell yeah

And then I read your suggestion and I was like wtf???

10% mana as AP? I'm taking smite on every mid lane **mage **now

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JXrsgPnG,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2015-04-18T00:39:21.130+0000)

Nope not on **Assassins **or champions relying on building damage quickly and trying to snowball

Champion Skin1 votes

Well it Diana is a Mage assassin? Or assassin mage?

TheRainInSpain1 votes

I would call Diana a Mage/Assassin, because she relies on spells to deal magic damage (Yes I know Ezreal, Kennen, Yorick, and Kog'Maw, Twisted Fate, and Varus are technically mages too) and she does some extensive burst.

I believe she is Mage/Assassin and not Assassin/Mage because Crescent Strike is a pass through skillshot. The classic mage either has a large array of ranged spells (Lux, Xerath, etc), or has a definitive passthrough skillshot. Assassin/Mages are assassins that happen to be built on magic damage rather than being ready built AP scaling mages. A number of Assassin/Mages can build hybrid or use a Gunblade. Mage/Assassins are classic mages that have assassin qualities such as blinks or more bursty kits (trading their little CC potential for more damage).

Snolen5 votes

Obviously the numbers need to be adjusted(because I'd rather not have Anivia running around with an item that gives her +200AP with an active that deals +400 magic damage)

But even then tear is too much of a niche item. Just give Magus some mana regen and it'll be fine.

Venowolf4 votes

Maybe buffing the Magus enhanced in a way that Riot made with the Juggernaut (Cinderhulk now), maybe adding some kind of mana to the Magus enhanced:

Magus Enhanced item 3708:

New Build Path: item 3706 + item 3057

Stats +60 ability power +10% cooldown reduction +200 mana

Passive UNIQUE - SPELLBLADE: After using an ability, your next basic attack deals 75% AP bonus magic damage and turn 10% of the damage dealt in mana. 1.5 second cooldown.

Something like that can put all the ap mages junglers more viables becaus solve his mana problems in some way.

Sire Hippington2 votes

i like the idea, but the numbers are off, old lichbanes ratio was nerfed for a reason.

Venowolf1 votes

75% AP only works well with a chunk of AP, the main idea its fix the mana problems, and give some power into late like the Cinderhulk do with the tanks.

Sire Hippington1 votes

even if we asume 100 base ad, this would have an breakeven point with lichbane at ~220ap, so usually after 2big items, you will get more damage out of that than out off lichbane while haveing manasustain and 10%cdr for less gold+junglestuff If that item was to be released with that numbers, I'd expect every midlaner that would use lichbane to take smite for this.

Venowolf1 votes

100 AD and 220 AP

Lichbane = 75 + 110 = 185 <-- (0.75 AD + 0.5 AP)

Magus = 165 < -- (0.75 AP)

So Lichbane cause more damage...

Sire Hippington1 votes

somehow i had 0.4ap for lichbane in my mind...(which would be 75+88=163) anyway, you usually will reach 300+ap pretty easily on any champ that would want a lichbane, with 300ap and 100 ad it breaks even.

CubedJustice1 votes

That could pretty easily mess with people who want to build lich bane, though.

junglerboy163 votes

Uh, wut? That is FAR stronger than Lich bane actually (25% more AP ratio) and could easily act as the replacement for it in their build. Diana would LOVE that jungle item, because combined with a passive proc she would hit for up to 250 +(155% AP) on a single attack (which in total is well over 1200 damage late game). Additionally, in the jungle APs AA a lot more than laners, and while it wouldn't be as ideal on someone like Fiddle, he only needs the proc for the mana sustain anyway.

CubedJustice2 votes

Not everybody builds Lich Bane exclusively for the AP ratio of the passive, though. The AD ratio makes it better for somebody more hybrid.

Venowolf1 votes

This version don't have the AD part only the AP...

CubedJustice1 votes

...Don't read one comment and act like you understand, please.

Venowolf1 votes

Uh, ok...

Sire Hippington1 votes

and for what else? mana? AP? both covered here aswell. If you want ms, you could go for twinghosts or a Ludens. I don't see any problem for lichbane users here(i rather see a problem for lichbane as that jungleitem simply is stronger for less gold^^)

CubedJustice1 votes

I literally just said what.

Sire Hippington1 votes

it'S a BASE ad ratio, it doesn't scale with going hybrid. If you go for less than 200ap, lichbane would deal more dmaage than that item, but below 200 ap, trinity would simply be the better item for hybrid damage than trinity, while iceborn is better for a tankish built. You only take lichbane as a spellblade tem if you go more towards ap, but with more ap the sheen-jungleitem is better than lichbane.

Silents4291 votes

As much as I enjoy seeing Diana more often, I don't want to see her with a stronger lich bane early on. That is asking for trouble.

Champion Skin2 votes

Actually it might be weaker then Lich Bane early on because then you usually don't have that much AP and Lich Bane kind of have scaling base damage in the 75% of Base AD

Silents4291 votes

Okay but it is still a huge powerspike to early on for a champion like that. And doesn't benefit all the AP junglers that effectively.

Venowolf1 votes

Diana Jungle was my main model to fix the mage junglers, with this item she can be very efficient in the late game specially, because in the early stages you don´'t much AP stacked, maybe at 100 AP capped nearly min 10 if you are doing pretty well, otherwise the AP ratio can be lowered a bit, this its only a Example of how fix the core problems of mage jungler.

Venowolf1 votes

This is the "Cinderhulk effect"... The same happen with the Tank Junglers they can't build Sunfire anymore, because its not "gold efficient" but this version help with the mana problems

JustMyBassCannon2 votes

10% of your mana becomes AP?

Sure, let's just make an item that naturally grants +100 AP without accounting for the champion's pool. That's not overpowered for literally every mana-based champion that would normally buy Archangel's/Seraph's.

Champion Skin1 votes

And imagine if it stacked with Archangel/Seraph mana to AP Then you would gain 2000 mana about 1000 base mana so then you would gain 3000 *0.13 = 390 AP 450 AP from just those two items

Hmm how effective would RoA be? Well if you had those two items A RoA would give about 120 AP before it has started stacking and 165 AP when fully stacked (so OP)

JustMyBassCannon1 votes

No, he named the unique passive Awe, which is the same on Archangel's Staff, so it can't stack the mana gain. It can, however, stack the innate Mana and Seraph's active effect, which is still terrifying.

Widder881 votes

item 3724 is perfect for Evelynn. Don't change it. 20% CDR is important. 10% of your Mana would be great in the late game (200 AP!), but in the mid game it is a big nerf because of the missing CDR.

Some other AP Junglers have Mana problems, for example Malzahar. But i can buy a tear on Malzahar.

And some AP Junglers don't even have Mana, for example Akali.

I don't know if it is good to solve all mana problems of mana heavy junglers with the jungle item. AP Junglers without mana problems and other types of junglers would suffer. I mean tear is a good item. Mana junglers can buy it, if they need it.

Maybe it is possible to add an additional mana jungle item, that doesn't replace Magus.

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