Reworking Poppy With Respect to League's Design Values

JCross··8 votes·1,989 views

With the recent spotlight on Poppy, I thought now would be a good time to voice my opinions on her, in terms of design. Firstly, I want to say that I don't think I have all the answers to Poppy's numerous problems, and this post is going to be filled with my own opinions. Lastly I want to say that the perspective I used to come up with these changes come from the game's Design Values, which have recently been nailed down for all to see. Without further ado, here are my thoughts:

Poppy is a champion that has had a number of problems for a while, but without being played much has been overlooked/ignored a bit. The major problems are her abilities and how they create an unhealthy game environment. Poppy, right now, is being largely played as an Assassin. And she's good at it! But let's break down what it really means to be an Assassin. Assassins are champions that get onto a target quickly, and with an equally speedy combo, eliminate an enemy (assuming the assassination is successful). The current state of the game allows us to combat most Assassins with some form of Counterplay.

Some examples of this include exhaust, crowd control, and situational things like dropping a Vision Ward in the enemy Akali's Shroud (Peekaboo!). When Poppy jumps onto your teammate, she's going to use Diplomatic Immunity (her ult), which renders all of your spells and damage to her useless. This spell alone has so many problems with it. It has no Counterplay, it obstructs Teamplay, and it also has a certain lack of Clarity to it. Looking at the animations, it's not quite clear what's going on. You can see that Poppy has some shield of some kind, which is decent, though it doesn't account for what KIND of shield it is (spell shield, damage shield, Armor buff, Magic Resist buff, etc.) but her target gets a sort of cage around them, which actually sends off the wrong visual cues: being trapped, immobility, some sort of reduction of power, etc., rather than the damage increase debuff it actually gives (which is admittedly hard to come up with). Her other abilities share these Clarity deficits as well, especially in Paragon of Demacia (her W ability). This ability passively grants her stacks for each auto attack up to 10. If you activate it, Poppy immediately gains all 10 stacks and a movement speed increase. The stacks give her bonuses to Armor and Attack Damage multiplied by the number of stacks. In this case, Poppy's hammer turns red when she is at max stacks, which visually tells you shes stronger, in terms of attacking. It does not account for the armor bonus at all however. These Clarity issues might best be solved by universal particle effects for buffs and debuffs such as invulnerability, spell shield, damage increases, etc. In Poppy's case this results in her abilities generally being very hard to read, and hinders every other player in the game because of this.

Next, I'd like to address something more on the lore side of Poppy's design. She was the daughter of a world renowned blacksmith, whom she assisted instead of playing with dolls or skipping rope or whatever it is little yordle girls do. So she's a tomboy tough girl. On her way to deliver a masterpiece helm to Demacia with her father, they were intercepted by Noxian Assassins that kill her father. She watches helplessly from the brush and eventually makes it to Demacia where they bestow upon her the title of Bandle City Ambassador to Demacia etc. Firstly, it makes sense for her to be tanky or damage resilient, since she's a tough girl and a blacksmith (she can make herself the best armor). She wants to never be in a position of helplessness again, like when her father was killed in front of her. She would be driven to protect the ones she loves, throwing herself in front of the enemy if need be (tank). She would most likely DETEST assassins because of the atrocity that happened to her father! She should NOT be played like an assassin in my opinion, and she would be much better suited as a full tank/fighter instead. She is a protector, not a killer! (What assassin runs around in heavy armor with a big hammer anyway?)

That being said, here are some changes, aside from numbers, since I can't test any of them (T_T), that would fix many of her current problems:

E: Heroic Charge - instead of being a single-target ability, change so that it's a skillshot and can hit multiple targets. Damage increase with more targets hit, when hit against terrain, etc. Change numbers accordingly. This adds more Counterplay since you can now dodge her ability. It adds an element of Mastery and Meaningful Choices as well, as you choose when to use it, who to use it on, what to combo it with, etc. Basically, making this a skillshot opens up a lot of plays, and is overall a healthy change for Poppy and the game.

R: Diplomatic Immunity - This one can go a bunch of different ways. Maybe just throw it out completely and start from scratch. Otherwise, options include: remove the immunity to spells from other champions (but keep the damage immunity from them), keep the rest the same, perhaps with some number changes, OR remove the immunity altogether, give extra resistances and target is still debuffed, OR combined with either of the aforementioned options, Poppy can only deal damage and cast spells on the targeted champion. Without testing it's hard to say which of the first two is better, however I do think that the last option is the best one, as it is rather counter-intuitive to target one champion and attack another, as is popular to do.

So there you have it, those are my thoughts on how to rework Poppy in light of the available Design Values of League of Legends. Hopefully other people can share their thoughts as well. I'd be interested in listening to what other people think and finding different ideas on the subject!

EDIT: Just to clarify, I left out changes to things like raw numbers because the scope of these changes is more the overall design than the details of numbers. I also decided against making changes to Poppy's other abilities because they work fine in conjunction with the outlined Design Values that these ideas are based around. If I had the opportunity to make the number tweaks and test them myself, I would jump at the chance, but I just don't see a point in throwing numbers around when I have no way of knowing whether or not they will adequately represent the power I would like. I should add however, that there probably should be some sort of Clarity in Poppy's passive when it procs. As it is right now, damage toward her is inconsistent and hard to read. Perhaps a sort of particle animation could be added (I'm thinking like when laser beams hit the invisible shields of starships in Star Wars).

22 Comments

Ghiefelstein6 votes

First of all, I enjoyed reading your analysis on Poppy. I especially loved your reasoning on why Poppy should be a tank/fighter instead of an assassin. Also the point about clarity on her abilities is spot on. I would like to comment a bit on your idea for Heroic Charge.

E: Heroic Charge - instead of being a single-target ability, change so that it's a skillshot and can hit multiple targets. Damage increase with more targets hit, when hit against terrain, etc. Change numbers accordingly. This adds more Counterplay since you can now dodge her ability. It adds an element of Mastery and Meaningful Choices as well, as you choose when to use it, who to use it on, what to combo it with, etc. Basically, making this a skillshot opens up a lot of plays, and is overall a healthy change for Poppy and the game.

Making her E a skillshot gives Poppy an escape. Without targeting she could use it to get over walls for example. Making it hit multiple targets gives the ability a huge best case scenario (GNAR! is an ult for a reason). Maybe that is not the best place to add power to Poppy.

Furthermore, there already is counterplay to wall slam: positioning. Just don't stand between Poppy and a wall. You still get a scary yordle in your face, but a gapcloser on a melee fighter is pretty common. Heroic charge is an iconic ability for Poppy and worth keeping in my opinion. But I would love to see ideas for the rest of her kit!

JCross2 votes

Thanks! Interesting thoughts on Heroic Charge. I considered the fact that she could use it as an escape, and thought about overall power of hitting multiple targets. As for the wall thing, due to it's interaction with terrain I figured even if it missed any valid targets, she would just face-plant into the wall. You're probably right about the hitting multiple targets thing though. Maybe she would only drive the first target hit forward and push the others aside or something. I don't think we should throw out Heroic Charge, I just think that this particular ability would be better and a lot more fun as a skillshot. That being said, I did warn that these are opinions and I don't have all the answers :)

ShadowKnight12242 votes

I like Poppy's E as it is right now because even if there are no walls nearby, you can still use it to peel for your carry.

I feel her W should be changed, as it is mostly a speedup and a passive.

One way to make her ultimate more meaningful and shift her towards a tank/fighter, would be for it to give her 50% Tenacity on activation (that stacks with already present Tenacity, so if you have Merc Treads and 21 mastery points in the Defence tree, you can nullify most (but not all) the CC that gets thrown at you) and selects one ally that she receives 10/30/50% damage inflicted on them. With her passive, suddenly she becomes a protector that literally absorbs damage for her allies (so long as they stay super close to her, like within 300-400 units) and she can serve to protect fragile assassins diving the enemy line, or act as a bodyguard for her carry.

JCross2 votes

Why can't you use it to peel for your carry with my changes? I elected to leave her W the same simply because I didn't really see any immediate problems with it aside from Clarity. That said, It's not hard to simply make a new W for her. There are a lot of different ways to completely re-invent her ultimate, and the damage absorption from allied champions idea is really neat! I think your numbers are a bit low on it tbh, but that's actually a really cool concept! Reminds me of a similar ability from a unit in WC3 (one of my favorite games) :^)

ShadowKnight12241 votes

Well, the problem is that as you say yourself, it can be dodged. If it's the sole source of peel for Poppy, it shouldn't be trivially nullified by things like Zed's shadows, Fizz's trollpole, Katarina's shunpo, Talon's silence-shunpo, etc. If you use the new E proactively, it's easy to dodge it. If you hold it, you give a chance for the enemy assassin to 100-0 your carry before you can react.

Thanks! WC3 was one of my favourite games too and it was definitely an influence.

JCross1 votes

I don't see a problem with it being dodged though. That's just another example of Counterplay in her kit. It really suits her theme as well; bull rushing someone head-first is pretty reckless, but you sure don't want to get hit by it! If a zed shadow dodges a Janna tornado, do you blame the tornado for not being single-target, or do you credit the zed player's skill?

ShadowKnight12241 votes

The problem is that her peel IS the counterplay to high-mobility assassins. If she can't be an efficient bodyguard, you are effectively pushing her towards the role of assassin/bruiser, rather than tanky protector.

The thing about Janna is that her disengage is superb. If Zed dodges a tornado, she still has her (undodgeable) ult to disengage, and she can throw her (undodgeable) W on Zed to slow him down, while shielding her ADC. Plus, the cooldown on her tornadoes is really low if you have 40% CDR (easy for supports) and you've been maxing it, while Poppy only has her E for peel and it's on a non-insignificant cooldown even if you've maxed it.

JCross1 votes

Well you pick Janna specifically for the purpose of her disengage. When you pick Poppy, do you pick her specifically for her ability to peel? Probably not. The reason you don't is because that's not really what she does. Poppy is much better at being that beefy front line that literally throws herself at the enemy. That's always been her playstyle, her claim to fame (or infamy however you want to look at it). You can't expect every champion to be good at doing everything!

ShadowKnight12241 votes

Yeah but if you wanted her to be a protector instead of an assassin, that's the direction you want to take her. If you are fine with Poppy charging head-first into the enemy team and start deleting people, you might as well just leave her as-is. If you want to turn her into a tanky protector, you want to give her a reason not to dive head-first into the enemy team to delete people, and that means giving her a satisfying playstyle that rewards (reliably) peeling for carries and THEN start fighting whoever dives the backline.

I dunno, that's just my opinion.

JCross1 votes

Hmmm maybe I should be more clear about what I mean...

The general "feel" of Poppy should not be changed. In other words, she should still run face-first into the enemy team, but she should do it more like a Jarvan "I'm gonna sit on your face while you cry" way, rather than a Leblanc "I'm going to melt your face off while I laugh" way. After all, she's a tough girl and not afraid of anything! She's better off a front line tank that charges into the enemy than a supporting "Marksman Aid" :3

ShadowKnight12241 votes

Well, the main problem with that sort of playstyle is that Poppy doesn't have many reliable laning tools. Even if you change her E and Ult, she is still going to have a hard time laning because her waveclear is atrocious and even though she might win quick trades by Qing and retreating, it's still very easy to push her under tower. Her W is good for prolonged fights, but it's very lackluster, and she can't win a level 2 all-in unless the enemy lets her E him against a wall.

In top lane, she can't outduel duelists like Jax, Fiora or Irelia, and long-ranged AP poke like Ryze's, Lulu's, Kayle's and Teemo's is just absolutely devastating for her. As a jungler, her cleartime is not the best and her ganks are dubious (since her mobility is unreliable), and she is outdueled by early game aggressors like Lee Sin and Elise, and outscaled by farmers like Udyr and Master Yi.

Shifting her towards a support-style of character would be the best bet for her (in my opinion), in the form of a Leona-like tank that has both peel and the ability to initiate. It's a lot easier to catch someone in bot lane (especially when you have someone else's help to reposition people, like Vayne's Condemn), and being a tanky fighter-like support is a variant we haven't really explored. AD bruisers supporting are unheard of (mainly because there isn't an AD support item), and it would be neat to add more diversity to the role.

OblongOtter1 votes

WOAH K WALL OF TEXT. She's supposed to be played like a bruiser (like how Blitz is supposed to be a bruiser) and her Shield glows green when she has max stacks. But yeah I think they should rework her because she's in a Xerath-like state of really weak but sometimes SUPER op when her ult is active and just horribly toxic for the game.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Her passive is problematic too. It's waaay too powerful as is for a Squishy champion, and if you build her tanky you run into a different problem, that is, Valiant Fighter will often proc off of every single source of damage when you get below half health late game, which gives Poppy much more opportunity than most to make use of the ridiculous Second Wind mastery.

Tanks are supposed to absorb burst, but not to the capacity that Poppy can. So I have a suggestion. Make Poppy the ultimate tank, and give her the ultimate tank passive, as Riot gave Yasuo the ultimate melee carry passive:

Valiant Fighter: Passive - Iron Wall - Poppy completely ignores the additional damage from critical strikes. Passive - Burst Barrier - Poppy's Magic Resistance is unaffected by Magic Penetration or Magic Resistance Reduction.

In this way, Poppy still gets a massive damage reduction from her opponents, but it is far more consistent and rewards her for building tanky rather than squishy. You don't suffer from lack of readability because it is always on rather than being based on how much damage the enemy would deal.

Her ultimate is also definitely a problem. So let's change it up a bit. If we want to keep Poppy's identity as a tank but also keep her gameplay feel as a disruptive champion who goes RIGHT for the carry, let's make it like this:

Ultimate - Hammer Diplomacy Passive - Poppy gains 10/20/30 Armor and Magic Resistance Active - Poppy marks an enemy champion. During this time, she gains 30% crowd control reduction and 30% damage resistance from all sources other than the marked champion. The marked champion's damage and crowd control are 30% less effective on any champion other than Poppy as long as they are marked. Poppy gains 30/45/60% bonus movement speed when moving towards her marked target for the duration.

Duration 6/8/10 seconds

There we go. It has a similar feel but is much less numerically effective.

Soleka1 votes

See I want to see poppy become less of an assassin type character and more of a support bouncer. (I suppose it would be bruiser, but I'm thinking more of a bodyguard for a celebrity or a club). She would work like Braum, but instead of using a shield, she uses her hammer. People only want to see one or two abilities changed, while I want to see a complete redefining of Poppy.

Passive: If she is within a certain distance of another ally she gains bonus armor and damage. This would fit in better with her lore, she couldn't protect her father so she's going to become stronger to protect the people she's in lane with. Also this gives her an interesting trade off that riot has been going for with newer champions. You can take her solo top, but she won't do as well as if she was helping another player.

Q: Hammer Diplomacy While I love devastating blows for the sheer damage it has, it feels a bit weird for her. Because of her lore as a blacksmith, it's not about the power of one hit, it's the power of many solid hits. It would be cool though to see that her training as a blacksmith has made her blows strong enough that other people can feel the force of them. On hit target champion or minion suffers a lot of damage and a slow. While the other enemies around them take a lesser amount of damage. Think of this one being similar to Tristana and her explosive shot ability.

W: Paragon of Demacia Her current W is quite a bit boring, and quite honestly is in competition for one of the worst abilities currently in league. I like the idea of her becoming an offensive version of Braum. She jumps to her allies, but instead of bonus armor and magic resist, She and her ally gets increased attack speed and damage. Maybe her jump also causes a minor knock up if she hits another opponent as she's jumping to her ally.

E: Keep her E the same (I really like how it works, and there is no one else who has a charge that works quite like hers (specifically the fact that it's both a skill shot and a point and click hit, and she interacts with the environment rather than going through it. )

R: Hammer and Anvil It would be cool to see her use her shield to do a massive AOE damage as well as creating a piece of terrain she can interact with. She slams her shield into the ground giving her increased movement and damage at the cost of her armor (her armor is halved, but her damage is increased by a percentage of armor lost in this way). if she moves into the shield she can pick it back up at a reduced cooldown (kinda like Gnar and his houses). The shield blocks the movement of creep and heroes (they have to move around it), but she can use it to slam opponents into it.

sp4411 votes

Well, I had an idea for a kit for her... It's not very good, but it's an idea.

Passive: Valiant Figther - Poppy ignores 50% of an attack that would otherwise leave her with less than 20% Health, and gains a decaying bonus of +50% Bonus Armor and Magic Resistance for 10 seconds. This effect has a cooldown of 120 seconds.

W - Paragon of Demacia - on activation, Poppy loses 15% movement speed and gains a shield for 5 seconds. If this shield is popped, Poppy restores her movement speed alongside a bonus and an increase on her armor and magic resist for 3 seconds. If the shield expires naturally, Poppy does not gain the bonus resistance, and the speed bonus is reduced.

R - Diplomatic Immunity - Poppy marks a target, and damage from all other sources is reduced by 30%, with crowd control being reduced in 25%. She also gains a movement speed boost when moving towards her mark, and deals 10% more damage against it. This bonus increases every time she is hit by her target to a cap of 50%.

Pretty much, building around the idea that she will observe the battle condition, choose her opponent, and then charge into him and keep fighting no matter what.

JCross1 votes

Hey, throwing out ideas is fine! It's actually what I was hoping people would do here! The more ideas thrown out, the closer we get to the best solution. :)

ThePredator10251 votes

So I wanna start off saying that I agree that Poppy needs some work HOWEVER; with that being said I want you to be careful with her. I'm sure you will understand that for the simple reason that people simply don't play Poppy. The few that do love her for her mid/late game potential know that they have to survive the early which is about as good at top lane Warwick. The point I wanna make is that you don't see her right now and to much in any direction will remove her from the game completely.

My brother is a big Poppy player and has tossed some of the ideas around since we say her played by UOL, which he both cried and cheered over. He was happy to see her played at that level but hurt knowing that Riot said they would nerf her if she was played competitively. Some of the ideas he thought about included lowering or removing the percent health on her "Q". It would make it so there wasn't the sudden chuck that people saw. Another idea is slightly lowering the AD scaling on her "Q" but that one was kinda touchy beings that it is really her only damage source for most of the game.

When it comes to her "E" Heroic Charge I have mixed feelings. The one guy talks about making it a skill shot which I think would be kinda cool and convenient but I think that it would ultimately keep people seeing Poppy as that much more broken if you can just "E" over the Dragon wall after a fight. I personally like that fact that you have to make smart decisions with her "E" in order to escape or engage. An example of this is using a minion to jump to in order to escape, kinda like Yasuo's dash. In the end I really like this ability and will leave it up to you but those are my thoughts.

With her ult I'm very nervous about changes. I think that her "R" Diplomatic Immunity really makes Poppy Poppy. Her ult is just unlike the other champions in the game in that fact that you can remove all damage and what have-yous from all but one champion on the enemy team. I saw that you talked about making her ult vulnerable to spells, well my question in response is.... What difference is it then from Kayles Ult?? I feel that people could dislike that fact that there are so alike when they are clearly different champions. As far as the tenacity that the guy below talks about I can honestly say I don't like it. I feel that if you did something on that scale, with current Poppy, it would kill her overall effectiveness in team fights not to mention that Irelia already has claimed that style of play with her passive. I know that I'm being fussy but I would hate to see a champion just never see light in the game.

One possible idea that goes along with removing Poppy's assassin role in League is one that a bunch of my friends and I have discussed with the possible rework. If any change would ultimately kill Poppy play all together, and I mean further reduce her time played, change her to a support with HUGE peel for her carries where she excels in drawing attention while buffing her adc. In this idea she could be played tank because those supports are still in play, like Thresh and Leona. In this concept leave her "E" alone because it is hard peel where she forcefully takes the enemies away from her carries unlike Alistar that can just throw them away. This we feel will keep her unique. So what about her other abilities?

I think if she was reworked as a support her "Q" could be a turned into a slow or a silence if it makes contact with an enemy. With this idea the name could still remain "Devastating Blows" and I think the public would accept that as okay. It could still do damage but on a smaller level. Another idea that could be added to the silence/slow or instead of, could be a percent armor reduction based on her current armor. This would make people build her tanky and i feel change the way she is build altogether. In both of these I think it would keep her unique and reward her for throwing herself into the enemy.. you know just Poppy things.

Continued......

ThePredator10251 votes

Her "R" I think could be reworked for a two part ult. The first part causes her armor to hit a perfect state where she can either gain huge increased resistances or maybe cause a large AOE slow in field that keeps the enemies at bay if your to worried that the increase to armor would make her to much like Alistar's ult. In the second example think Maokai's ult radius for the slowing field. I believe that it would again make her very unique in the fact that see can essentially peel for the whole team but not be like Janna because this ult would allow for kiting for ADC's and team or a huge disengage that causes one to go down for the better of many. That way she can still be a hero even till the end. And the second, if even needed after first part, she could share her fine armor crafting abilities with one of her fellow teammate for its duration increasing their survivablility in fights that get messy.

Well I believe that if anyone is still reading this I have probably eat up enough of your time but these are my ideas. Either slap Poppy enough to bring down her damage while keeping her the same champion, or completely reworking her to fill a different role all together. Thanks for the time and let me know that you think.

JCross1 votes

Good thoughts here. Firstly I wanted to say that in my reworking of Poppy here, my goal was to keep the general feel of her play the same (you still run at your enemies and pummel them into walls with your face), and clear up the problems she has that directly obstruct the game's Design Values. I think that you're right about being careful when making changes to her, since she's played so lightly, the people who DO play her are probably pretty keen on her, and we obviously don't want to upset them. That being said, you can't please everyone, and some people just aren't going to like change. Period. "That one guy" you mention wants to transition Heroic Charge from a single-target ability to a skillshot is me (lol). I made this decision while keeping the Design Values at the back of my mind, and while considering the ability at its core. Throwing your body at someone is pretty reckless, and should be avoidable (think matadors), but if it lands, quite destructive. That's where the idea to allow it to hit multiple targets came from (though as another person pointed out, its entirely possible that this is too powerful). As for jumping over walls, a lot of champions can do that already, but my thoughts were that due to its interaction with terrain, she'd stop at walls instead of go over them. THIS is the skill, in my opinion, that makes Poppy Poppy though. Diplomatic Immunity in its current state is just too problematic for the game. Being invulnerable from EVERYTHING is REALLY powerful. Not to mention the fact that people don't even use it as intended, targeting a weak support, only to charge at another champion. I stand by my initial thoughts on it: either get rid of it entirely or nerf it. Perhaps the former is the better option, but who knows, maybe its not broken beyond repair.

Skia Asteri1 votes

Her passive displays a faint gold bubble around her when it is triggered already. As others have said her shield glows green when she has max stacks. However, the the shield effect seems to sometime disappear even if Poppy still has max stacks.

The only thing that needs changing to make her not be toxic is her ult, my suggestion would be she looses immunity to enemy structures and units she damages. The make up for taking away options, killing the target of the debuff could extend the immunity time presuming it has not been cleansed.

Not to say her other abilities could not use some adjustment (would like W to prevent the stacks from starting to expire while the active is in effect), but that would help with the major issue with her game play.

JCross1 votes

Interesting. I've played around with her quite a bit recently but I haven't even noticed these things. I guess the problem isn't that they don't exist but that they are not noticeable.

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