Where the hell did all this mage circlejerk come from?

Schàdenfreude·Feb 21, 2017·18 votes·1,536 views

I have no fucking clue why people are complaining about mage itemization and how they are weak.

Just this week, we have had mostly mages in the LCS instead of things like AD assasins. FlyQuest even had a pentakill with Orianna mid. Bjergsen achieved the same thing with Orianna.

The thing is, while AP itemization may not bring as much variety of unique passives, they have their own benefits and stats. This is crucial to item balance. How would any of you guys like to see an AD version of Rabadon's deathcap?

68 Comments

EedatFeb 21, 201711 votes

Well AD has been stronger for a patch which automatically means mages must be garbage. Dont you know?

SchàdenfreudeFeb 21, 20171 votes

I actually can't tell if this is sarcasm or not lmao.

GULAG 4 UFeb 21, 20171 votes

It is.

ForgiveColourFeb 21, 20171 votes

Hey zed is seeing some plays in lcs after like 10 years. I giess riot is all zed mains now gg mages gutted

Meep ManFeb 21, 20179 votes

How would any of you guys like to see an AD version of Rabadon's deathcap?

item 3031

Mizuki ZahraFeb 21, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chicken Dynasty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JB7B1e79,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-02-21T01:17:18.859+0000)

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Death cap raises ap by 35% ie adds crit damage not ad as a stat

DrCyanideFeb 21, 20172 votes

Crit raises AA damage to 200%, IE makes that 250% with a 20% chance of happening.

So 1/5 of your autos deal a bonus 150% damage, averaging 30% more damage per auto attack. Compared to < 35% bonus damage per spell (since most don't have 100% AP scaling).

Yeah, it doesn't work on your AD spell casts, just like Deathcap is useless for AP Auto Attacks. It's the exact same thing for the other stat.

Golden Tager XFeb 21, 20171 votes

It is lower than that even, because it would be 35% on a 100% spell, with no base damage, calculate that in there and we are looking at closer to a 20%

EedatFeb 21, 20173 votes

Thats a load of crap. Infinity edge only multiplies crit damage on auto attacks. All the popular QQ AD champions are AD casters which don't even touch that item

LauchmelderFeb 21, 20174 votes

OP didn't specify, so IE being the Rabadons for AD is correct.

l Dárius lFeb 21, 20171 votes

Ie being the rabadons for crit is correct

DrCyanideFeb 21, 20172 votes

Why is it a load of crap? Deathcap doesn't enhance auto attacks, Infinity Edge doesn't enhance spells. Two complimentary items.

ZettoFeb 21, 20171 votes

its a load of crap because rabadon's boosts AP, which applies to all abilities, which is useful on all mages, meanwhile IE only enhances crit AA's, which are utilized by graves, tryndamere, ADCs, and almost nothing else.

EedatFeb 21, 20171 votes

Because IE is dependant on RNG crit. By itself is digit because it only adds 25% damage (200% to 250%) 20% of the time. IE is complete dog shit on its own which it why you need to build two more crit items which give zero AD to get even a favorable crit percentage for 25% extra game on your autos. This is also why crit builds are complete trash until late game

Just when I thought I've seen it all people actually ate attempting to say IE is the same as deathcap holy shit.

You want an accurate comparison? It would look like this.

+80 AD +35% Total AD 3800g

DrCyanideFeb 21, 20173 votes

150% bonus damage with 20% chance balances out to 30% bonus every auto, compared to Deathcap's +35% AP every spell. However very few spells have 100% AP Ratios to take full advantage of the +35% AP, usually having around 70% ratios, resulting in 25% bonus damage for that ability, making IE's bonus larger on average than Deathcap's.

The advantage Deathcap has over IE is that it's consistent, which is what pushes IE ahead late game as the player gets more and more Crit Chance items. Instead of 1/5 chance it gets bumped up to a 1/2 chance with as little as one other item, making it an average 75% damage boost per auto.

Just when I thought I've seen it all people actually ate attempting to say IE is the same as deathcap holy shit.

Same, no, but it is the equivalent in the same way that Last Whisper's upgrades are the equivalent of Void Staff or that Mercurial Semiter is equivalent of Zhonya's Hourglass.

+80 AD +35% Total AD 3800g

If you want a real comparison, all other AD items would drop down to 55 AD, it would only work with Bonus AD (no free AP per level, no free AD per level), it would cost more than a second BF Sword to combine, and it wouldn't help your Auto attacks without purchasing another item.

EedatFeb 21, 20172 votes

150% bonus damage with 20% chance balances out to 30% bonus every auto

Literally absolute bullshit. It not +150%. It increases the crit damage from +100% on crits (+200% total) to +150% (+250% total) which means its a 20% chance to increase your damage by 25% (the extra bonus 50% from IE over the original 200%). It's not +150% because crit is NOT unique to IE. Thats it. The passive from IE makes your crits (and only your crits) do 25% more damage

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

#YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO CLUE AS TO HOW I.E. WORKS YET YOU'RE TRYING TO DO A COMPARISON? WHAT?

The boards in a nutshell. Some guy who is so clueless that he doesn't even know basic principles of the game lists out his bullshit made up math and other people upvote him because it agrees with the current circlejerk

DrCyanideFeb 21, 20171 votes

I know how Infinity Edge works. Check your math and you'll see that it agrees with mine. Where we differ there is our base assumption on how we should compare the two items.

There is no "Critical Spell Chance" stat, so to compare Infinity Edge to Deathcap I ran the numbers as if Infinity Edge was your only source of Crit Chance, which makes it as close to a 1-to-1 comparison as you can get. With only Infinity Edge you're netted an average of 30% bonus damage per auto attack, exactly as I said.

Both items provide high amounts of their primary damage stat. Both items provide ways to amplify the stats provided by other items. Both items provide the stat that they amplify.

It's as plain as day that these items are counterparts to anyone who will only read what they do.

MrHaZeYoFeb 21, 20171 votes

Mages are gated by CDS

ADs are gated by CDs and AAs

So I mean it makes sense that ADs don't have a deathcap, although IE is as close as they need.

Dominick DestineFeb 21, 20176 votes

{quoted}

How would any of you guys like to see an AD version of Rabadon's deathcap?

item 3031

DrCyanideFeb 21, 20175 votes

How would any of you guys like to see an AD version of Rabadon's deathcap?

You mean item 3031 ? That is what it's designed as, even if it doesn't benefit AD Casters as much as auto-attackers.

I think most of the complaints come from the items. You seldom feel smart building as a mage because the builds are so black and white.

Without looking at either Orianna game I can guess that their build included item 3165 item 3135 item 3020 and likely item 3157 . Maybe a item 3026 , item 3001 or item 3089 depending on how the game was going and the matchup. How close did I get?

There's nothing interesting about AP builds right now, and when it feels like every few patches AD champions find some new way to use or abuse another item... well, we'll still be running the same old build we've been running since Rylais was nerfed. We'll run it until Morellonomicon gets nerfed or some other item gets buffed to broken status.

LankPantsFeb 21, 20174 votes

NA LCS isn't exactly the pinnacle of competitive play. If you go over and look at LCK you'll see that mages are starting to phase out a little.

In most games there's at least one of Talon, Zed, Corki or Jayce. AP assassins like Kat, Leblanc and Ekko are also either high priority or rising in priority.

Traditional mages in the current game are considerably weaker than they have been and are currently being outclassed by AD mids, just like ADs outclass APs in every other role where they can get any gold. That's endemic of an itemisation problem.

How would any of you guys like to see an AD version of Rabadon's deathcap?

You mean Infinity Edge? IE always has been the AD Deathcap. It's also far more efficient in its job.

ForgiveColourFeb 21, 20171 votes

Wow one patch where mages are not the only viable class in mid. I guess theyre all trash now gg

AhristocatsFeb 21, 20171 votes

http://www.gamesoflegends.com/tournament/stats.php?id=LCK%20Spring%202017

talon picked 3 times zed picked 2 times syndra picked 18 times banned 36 times orianna picked 19 times banned 14 times ryze 47 bans 29 picks cass 37 bans 18 picks

nice one son, you made me lose time

LankPantsFeb 21, 20171 votes

Talon and Zed are rising picks while Ori and Syndra are falling. Cass and Ryze are both broke as fuck.

You should however consider Corki: Bans 7 picks 42, Jayce: Bans 62, picks 20. These are the two who have been longterm threats. Of course Zed and Talon have been picked less, there have only been 1 weeks worth of games on 7.2 while there were 4 on 7.1.

Most of Syndra's, Orianna's, and to some extent Ryze and Cass's picks were in week 1-4. Since then the meta has become very assassin/cancer AD poke heavy.

If you look over just this weeks games (the only games on 7.2) you can see mages slowly lose their relevance as the week went on being replaced with more Corki, more Jayce and hard assassins in Talon/Zed/Ekko.

You will see this at IEM with the Korean teams going. Rox have shown an affinity for assassins already having picked Zed and Ekko recently as well as Mickey generally being known as an assassin player. Kongdoo have shown no real inclination towards assassins but after seeing the showing that assassins mid had towards the end of last week I'd be surprised if Edge isn't practising them at least somewhat. You may not see assassins mid out of Kongdoo but I think assassins mid from Rox are a guarantee.

AhristocatsFeb 21, 20171 votes

corki does magic damage, what a coincidance, and he is being nerfed! what a coincidance!

i'm waiting for those zed and talon picks, that bring 0 utility to their team unlike ryze ori and cass

idc about ekko, last time i checked he builds mages's items and he is already pick/banned

Best Kog NAFeb 21, 20173 votes

It's not as much of a mage circlejerk as much of a Anti-ADC's always in the bottom lane circlejerk, which is understandable as they've been required in the bot lane forever until Ziggs. It's a complex issue that's masqueraded as a circlejerk.

SchàdenfreudeFeb 21, 20173 votes

Actually, I'm not seeing much of Anti-ADC and Ziggs bot lane right now. Look on the first page of "hot." You will see a post about why there isn't an AP version of QSS. Yet, you don't see a single post about Ziggs.

Best Kog NAFeb 21, 20171 votes

It's cooled down some, but it still is an issue that needs to be addressed is what I'm saying. It's changed from making Marksmen not the only class allowed in bot to making changes to mages so more of them can be played in (maybe) a wider variety of roles. From what I'm getting it's a process.

MaeDoSanFeb 21, 20173 votes

I would trade an ap EON for an AD rabadon

LauchmelderFeb 21, 20174 votes

No, because IE basically already is an AD rabadons.

dunder killFeb 21, 20174 votes

Its not even close lol

LauchmelderFeb 21, 20172 votes

See my other Reply and get your facts straight

dunder killFeb 21, 20174 votes

You're other response is trash too lol. Thats like saying item 3020 are a second rabadons because it "buffs you damage"

LauchmelderFeb 21, 20172 votes

No but if you would use the brain you hopefully have you'd understand. NA

EedatFeb 21, 20173 votes

Sorry, going to have to take your trash arguement elsewhere. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go buy my third rabadons ( item 3001 ) and fourth rabadons ( item 3135 )

LauchmelderFeb 21, 20171 votes

Didn't know schools in NA didn't teach you to read properly. My bad.

EedatFeb 21, 20173 votes

Can you tell me which region didn't beat NA or Korea in a single game at worlds last year? Hint: it was EUW hahaha

LauchmelderFeb 21, 20171 votes

G2-8 was and is a disgrace. Splyce and H2K lacked international experience.

To be fair, EU sucked last worlds.

LankPantsFeb 21, 20174 votes

Can you tell me which region has never advanced past the group of 8 since the current format was established in S2? I'll give you a hint, even LMS has got past the round of 8.

dunder killFeb 21, 20174 votes

Maybe if you used your brain you could actually come up with a comparison that isnt dogshit

MaeDoSanFeb 21, 20173 votes

It doesn't buff my ad , only crit

LauchmelderFeb 21, 20172 votes

Which buffs your damage so it's an AD rabadons

MaeDoSanFeb 21, 20172 votes

Forces me to build crit so nope

Carrie PigeonFeb 21, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JB7B1e79,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-02-21T00:18:11.202+0000)

No, because IE basically already is an AD rabadons.

This isn't a fair example tbh. One is a flat out AP boost that can be built viably on any mage. The other is a % based item that can be worthless if you're unlucky and can't be built viably on every AD.

LauchmelderFeb 21, 20172 votes

The first actual argument I heard on my post.

While it has difference it's still pretty much the same thing. An AD can crit you for 1k on theoretically every AA while APs are gated by CDs.

So even if IE is chance based you still will have more chances to crit than the AP to hit their skills. It eventually evens out.

Carrie PigeonFeb 21, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JB7B1e79,comment-id=0003000000020000,timestamp=2017-02-21T00:44:22.947+0000)

The first actual argument I heard on my post.

While it has difference it's still pretty much the same thing. An AD can crit you for 1k on theoretically every AA while APs are gated by CDs.

So even if IE is chance based you still will have more chances to crit than the AP to hit their skills. It eventually evens out.

While this is true in some cases such as Caitlyn when it comes to other ADs say Olaf, Yorick, ETC who may want an AD steroid it simply isn't good on them and there are much better things to buy. The only way IE could resemble a Rabadons in almost any case is if it is on a majority of ADCs or Tryndemere.

ForgiveColourFeb 21, 20171 votes

Aps eon is ap champ having 5000 range aoe utility cc

dunder killFeb 21, 20173 votes

The boards have always been a mage circlejerk. They act like AD champs havent been balanced around their autos doing damage since beta. Throw in one patch where AD is overtuned and they go absolutely apeshit

Best Kog NAFeb 21, 20171 votes

I still remember all the KogMaw hate posts : (

deadlychuckFeb 21, 20171 votes

I mean, not saying it's a conscious thing or not, and it's by far not the only reason... but between the marksmen update and the assassin update, things went pretty well for them, and were designed around giving the class better identity. This was mostly true when it came to the way in which riot designed different items around some of stat(s) which they wanted to be associated with the class.

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/items/

Tell me, how many of those "magic" stats are now something which is designed to be definitively a "MAGE" stat? They removed spell vamp, well except for physical damage spells.

CDR is just for everyone now, in order to speed up the game.
7/13 items with mana have no AP, and are therefore useless on mages. That's includes mind you
Mana regen was removed from anything that doesn't build from a