Opinion: "fun to play against" is the most bullshit term to ever exist

Abibyama II·Jun 18, 2019·106 votes·20,486 views

Literally nothing is fun to play against except the ones you beat, because you beat them.

"Fair to play against" and "counterplay" are more appropriate

122 Comments

DUDE BROJun 18, 201947 votes

If I'm mid against ahri, veiger, or even zed I'm having fun because I know I can dodge their skillshots, exploit their weaknesses, etc. It is fun because I always have options and if I lose I know they were really good, or I played poorly. Even if they're ahead I can still outplay and win fights.

When I play against a master yi who is 0/7 then 1v5 pentakills our entire team, I am not having fun.

Bμbble ButtJun 18, 20191 votes

Completely Agree except that u have it backwards.

Midlane champs that make u feel that way are Zoe, Sylus, & Mordekaiser, all new champs who just are overloaded.

Master Yi is simple. Auto attack only nerf he needs is Q cooldown. Counterplay is someone like Shen and dont let him reset. tada

Sylus the kind of guy to take veigar ult, one shot adc with just scaling, dash in, do tons of AoE to last 4, then get his stealing ult back up just to steal lulu ult and BM.

OleandervineJun 18, 20198 votes

Just would like to point out that YOU CANNOT one shot anyone with Veigar's ultimate. They need to have been damaged already because his ultimate is an execute.

Bμbble ButtJun 18, 20193 votes

pfff you can if you have enough AP, and the target has low enough hp naturally. Example being Sona or Yuumi.

OleandervineJun 18, 20195 votes

If you're like level 13 and they're level 5, yes. But there's going to be no chances otherwise to one shot someone with Veigar's ultimate without first unloading the rest of your kit onto them.

tempname1232134Jun 18, 20192 votes

go watch videos and you will come to understand you're incorrect its base damage 75% of your ap can 100% one shot you without its exucture in question

J EevoJun 19, 20197 votes

Nah, you can run the math and see the target needs to have at least 10-20% hp missing to actually get killed by veigar R. With the scaling getting affected by missing health you actually do more damage to full hp targets with your W than with R

AyzevJun 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Grouchy Poro,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Iy9q3Oyd,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-18T22:31:04.881+0000)

75% of your ap

Ever since the update where his Q became a skillshot instead of point-and-click, his ult no longer scales with the target's AP.

tempname1232134Jun 20, 20191 votes

read the ability man it does base damage and 75% of your ap so it can 1 shot you without the passive of it activated if yo have enough ap

AyzevJun 20, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Grouchy Poro,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Iy9q3Oyd,comment-id=00070000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-06-20T05:07:37.663+0000)

it does base damage and 75% of your ap so it can 1 shot you

I get what you're saying now, but that's a pretty confusing way to word it. You're using "you" both when referring to Veigar and when referring to his target.

if yo have enough ap

Literally any damaging ability can oneshot if you have enough AP/AD/health/whatever else they can scale with. Question is, do you actually get enough under normal circumstances?

tempname1232134Jun 20, 20191 votes

1572 ap item 3135 item 3165 item 3020 and 3x item 3089 my ultimate to a 4000 full hp 100mr test dummy did 1300 damage now tell me again veigers r without its execute cant one shot?

AyzevJun 20, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Grouchy Poro,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Iy9q3Oyd,comment-id=00070000000000000000000000010001,timestamp=2019-06-20T05:22:12.516+0000)

1572 ap and 3x

And how long does it take to get that? Can you expect this to happen outside of practice tool?

my ultimate to a 4000 full hp

Dummies have 10,000 max hp. So was it full or was it at 4,000?

now tell me again veigers r without its execute cant one shot?

No one denies that it's theoretically possible. It's just not realistic for that to happen in practice, in an actual game, unless someone has been afk for most of it and is severely underleveled with no defensive items.

EonslegacyJun 21, 20191 votes

Most lvl 18 champs have 2k hp, most champs build health or resistances especially vs veigar. No veigars R has 325 base damage his W has 300 W has 100% ap ratio, R has 75% at full hp If veigar has 100 ap, veigars W does the same damage as his R, his W will continue to do more than his r permanently from there on out. W is more likely to kill than R with 1572 ap, AND his w will be so stacked that its gonna have a 2 or 1.5 second cd, thats gonna be cancer to play vs anyway his R istn gonna be the problem.

EonslegacyJun 21, 20191 votes

Indeed, you need at LEAST lich bane and an auto then your R ;)

Hi Its SciroccoJun 18, 20198 votes

I hope u feel so much fun when zed miss his q But still 100 to 0 you by pressing point click press his e then right click u 2 time then ignite electrote

Queen Of TearsJun 18, 20196 votes

[deleted]

SillyMooseJun 19, 20199 votes

i agree with that statement. But honestly it does piss me off when a zed misses his all of his q's and then just auto , e's you to death. it should no work like that.

EonslegacyJun 21, 20191 votes

he is ad all ads work like that,all ability based ad champs can right click mages to death in melee range. Even some ap champs can do that, its inevitable that dps eventually over several seconds reaches that point. Problem is the difference between AD and AP isn't large enough in the burst department for some to justify ap, and some ads dont have anyway to close that gap without dying (talon) to justify such smaller/more delayed burst.

EonslegacyJun 21, 20191 votes

Critical zed? double crit? early game? what point in time is this? I even struggle doing that with Ie zed lvl 7 when fed, vs veigar when BOTH autos crit. Like seriously he DOES NOT have that lvl of damage. Funny because riven hard counters zed.

RainbowIceeJun 19, 20193 votes

Just to support this i can beat the crap out of Zoe but it does not mean at all that she's fun to fight vs. It is not enjoyable. It is fair now anyways as i have a lot more options to dodge her bubble than she does landing them. On the other hand I've gotten beat the crap out of by good Azir players, that is admirable. It is a bit exciting for me to fight azir but it's a toss up whether the person playing the champion is good or not, it feels exciting and definitely earns props when they are that good, i'm not sure how many have actually seen a good azir play first hand to know what i mean. Either way while i wanna agree with OP it sounds like he/she has been playing with kiddies that their only enjoyment in the game is winning.

EonslegacyJun 21, 20191 votes

veigar plus Jg makes me believe that veigar aint fun to play against. But yea, most right clickers are pretty much broken in this game nowadays, if your champ cant 1 shot with abilities alone, its gotta be a right clicker if its in the damage role nothing else is allowed. But 1 shots are also not fun, so they get nerfed to the ground and arent allowed :( so yea.

SEKAIJun 18, 201927 votes

Fair and Fun aren't mutually exclusive.

Tahminatrix Jun 18, 20195 votes

Ya but its easier to balance and worry about just fair than looking or thinking for ways to make it fun.

Rıots Bad ClientJun 18, 201925 votes

I disagree. Almost every time I see Malphite lose, and they become a boring lane. Even if you win, or even if he has clear counterplay. hes just not that fun to play against.

Yasuo a well hated champion where hes completely trash, loses games, and just has one toxic ability that just make it completely unfun to play agsinst. But hey. if the Wall is down, there is a window of Counterplay. 24 second CD, thats pretty fair. Annie a forgotten champion thats also pretty low in winrates. where she has a you die now button with flash tibbers.

or a champion i just despise Anivia I hate playing against her. Shes not fun. however shes fair.

Simply some champs isnt that fun. even if they're bad or even fair.

You can even get other games in the mix, Bullet hell games, darkest dungeon(which is just RNG sim) and maybe the darksouls games. They're pretty unfair. BUT they're still fun.

A champions can still be impossible to win against Like some DoomBots. But they are still fun to play against.

Now I cant say what champions are fun to play against. as fun is different from people to people. Or what champ you play against what.

But I can give an example, I find it fun to play as Singed against Kindred and try to toss her out of her own ult.

flibitydooJun 18, 20195 votes

everything you've said supports OP's point though

you find singed fun against kindred because singed is doing something that wins. Winning is fun. You only have fun when you win. You have fun when you do something that makes that kindred lose. Is the kindred having fun on the other side when that happens? Is it fun to lose your ult? no. Zero sum game. And the fun you had was made in winning or doing something that leads to winning.

Find an instance or match up where you have fun getting destroyed to prove OP's argument wrong. One where you don't get salty or upset or annoyed and say "I only lost because X" and instead you step back and applause and say good fight well played. One where you'd be okay with that happening again because it's fair. That's actually having fun without winning. (PS, setting a sidegoal like "I want X KDA and don't care which nexus explodes at the end" doesn't count as not-winning, there needs to be genuine commitment to the win objective that was failed for it to count as a non-win, going "well at least I set and beat my own personal goal" isn't being happy in defeat, it's being happy that you won on the side). You'd be very hard pressed to find an instance where genuine defeat happens and players are actually happy. No one likes to lose.

Find an instance where you didn't have satisfaction or a good feeling after destroying someone, shutting them down and winning the game. And if that moment is followed by "well they're gonna respawn quick" or "I'm gonna have to go through that ordeal again", then that doesn't really count since it's quite clear that there wasn't a full win against them.

No champion is fun to play against because every opponent is an obstacle which will apply pressure and therefore stress and we all hate stress

Rıots Bad ClientJun 18, 20193 votes

{quoted}

everything you've said supports OP's point though

you find singed fun against kindred because singed is doing something that wins. Winning is fun. You only have fun when you win. You have fun when you do something that makes that kindred lose. Is the kindred having fun on the other side when that happens? Is it fun to lose your ult? no. Zero sum game. And the fun you had was made in winning or doing something that leads to winning.

Find an instance or match up where you have fun getting destroyed to prove OP's argument wrong. One where you don't get salty or upset or annoyed and say "I only lost because X" and instead you step back and applause and say good fight well played. One where you'd be okay with that happening again because it's fair. That's actually having fun without winning. (PS, setting a sidegoal like "I want X KDA and don't care which nexus explodes at the end" doesn't count as not-winning, there needs to be genuine commitment to the win objective that was failed for it to count as a non-win, going "well at least I set and beat my own personal goal" isn't being happy in defeat, it's being happy that you won on the side). You'd be very hard pressed to find an instance where genuine defeat happens and players are actually happy. No one likes to lose.

Find an instance where you didn't have satisfaction or a good feeling after destroying someone, shutting them down and winning the game. And if that moment is followed by "well they're gonna respawn quick" or "I'm gonna have to go through that ordeal again", then that doesn't really count since it's quite clear that there wasn't a full win against them.

No champion is fun to play against because every opponent is an obstacle which will apply pressure and therefore stress and we all hate stress

My main goal in league is to have fun, it can be a fun game. and champions make or break this. so victory in mind.

Incorrect. I can toss Kindred out of her R. Maybe. But she still stomps a singed. I hardly ever win against Kindred. She always tends to sit on singed trying to get her stacks and carry games. But I can still have fun against that champion. EVEN if I do not toss her out of her ult. I can still have fun. Even if I dont accomplish what i wanted to do.

You can have fun against in unwinnable situations. You can have no fun in ways you win. just straight up win. the entire team just afks in the first 5 min. and you win and forced to take towers at a slow pace. You can win a game, where you do your best, fighting against a champion like malphite. and just have your adc or mid laner just completly stomp the game and win off them. This isnt fun. where they just 1v5. Winning isnt everything.

but some champions to name a few I actually enjoy playing against even if the are bs regardless what champion I play as. Lissandra , TwistedFate Corki Ornn Shen XinZhao Zilean Sylas Mordekaiser

Some champions that used to be fun to play against but damage became ridiculous. Xerath Karthus

I play a lot of aram, as soon as i see some champions in champ loading so before the game even loads. where I just dread. and others with content I guess. post rework Slyas is a fun champion to play against. morde as well. Hell. I know he would beat me if he ults me, but I still want him to do it. its just fun.

I just disagree with champions cannot be "FUN" as op stated. but only fair to play against. and only if you beat them it is fun. hes saying champions are fun to play against only if you are winning. (maybe for some people, this might be true...) But for me winning isnt everything. I can play a game, where losing is the fun part. The most re-memorably time also come from losing even if winning is on my mind. And some kits are just fun to play against, Even if they're unfair overloaded and "BS" and you lose.

just like soccer in school playing against the gym teachers as 4th graders. All odds are heavily stacked against you, victory on your mind. You know you wont win. But will be fun.

RyusaetherJun 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

everything you've said supports OP's point though

you find singed fun against kindred because singed is doing something that wins. Winning is fun. You only have fun when you win. You have fun when you do something that makes that kindred lose. Is the kindred having fun on the other side when that happens? Is it fun to lose your ult? no. Zero sum game. And the fun you had was made in winning or doing something that leads to winning.

Find an instance or match up where you have fun getting destroyed to prove OP's argument wrong. One where you don't get salty or upset or annoyed and say "I only lost because X" and instead you step back and applause and say good fight well played. One where you'd be okay with that happening again because it's fair. That's actually having fun without winning. (PS, setting a sidegoal like "I want X KDA and don't care which nexus explodes at the end" doesn't count as not-winning, there needs to be genuine commitment to the win objective that was failed for it to count as a non-win, going "well at least I set and beat my own personal goal" isn't being happy in defeat, it's being happy that you won on the side). You'd be very hard pressed to find an instance where genuine defeat happens and players are actually happy. No one likes to lose.

Find an instance where you didn't have satisfaction or a good feeling after destroying someone, shutting them down and winning the game. And if that moment is followed by "well they're gonna respawn quick" or "I'm gonna have to go through that ordeal again", then that doesn't really count since it's quite clear that there wasn't a full win against them.

No champion is fun to play against because every opponent is an obstacle which will apply pressure and therefore stress and we all hate stress

There are plenty of cases where you win but you don't have fun doing so, like when you get carryed after being useless all game, or when you go even in lane, others win and you only splitpush, or many other cases (having a stressing game and such).

On the other hand, I wouldn't say there are many instances of being "happy" after a loss. More like being "uhm ok, I can accept that". Like when I play Illaoi and the opponent dodges all my tentacles with dashes or a well placed flash, I accept that, I also happen to say "that was good/well played" in all chat,

Ofc most of the times you are upset after losing, but I feel like there are champions that you subjectively find fun (or, maybe better, less unfun) to play against, but that's not a reason to change them, it's your subjective opinion, and usually, like the OP said, these champs are the ones with counterplay, but not always (for example, talking about Illaoi again, she has clear windows of counterplay and dodgeable skillshots, but way too many people find her unfun to play against), and it's not only because you beat them.

EonslegacyJun 21, 20191 votes

Illaois the worst example like ever, she is like :do you have flash? no go to step 2, yes go to step 4

step 2 do you have mobility currently up yes go to step 4 no go to step 3

Step 3 Do you have immunity frames ready yes go to step 4 no go to step 5

Step 4, you live

Step 5, you died

RyusaetherJun 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Illaois the worst example like ever, she is like :do you have flash? no go to step 2, yes go to step 4

step 2 do you have mobility currently up yes go to step 4 no go to step 3

Step 3 Do you have immunity frames ready yes go to step 4 no go to step 5

Step 4, you live

Step 5, you died

Yeah, no.

If you just know how to sidestep and/or have a champ with small hurtbox, without landing her E Illaoi is a pretty bad duelist.

Ofc it changes in a teamfight where she R flashes or where nobody is kiting her, but overall you can outmanouver her most of the times

EonslegacyJul 11, 20191 votes

yea, i played her vs nasus, he lifestealed enough my full combo on his spirit didnt kill him and he ran me down. But then i got a quad in a teamfight, while being 0/6. I mean. i wasn't saying she is unbeatable broken op disgusting, i was saying she is terribly designed to the extent its not fair. That being said the changes are kinda toxic and only further that problem I am directly stating, that the champion, either Wins or loses, and its based on numbers not skill. For example a nasus can eat every tentacle slam post 1 item, even through his spirit and not die, and then illaoi has no real attack after, where as a lot of other champs would just outright die by the E alone come 3 items in (she can get over 100% health scaling on the clone and she doesnt even have to be the one to do the damage to it). With 80 ad on 1 item, 40 on another, and 80 on another, she gets 200 bonus ad, she rocks like 150 base ad, with runes that can go to like 400 total ad, and with dragons can easily reach 450, THe E base is 45% and with 8% per 100 ad thats 40% bonus putting it at 81% of someones hp bar. if we factor in the transcendence build its closer to 90%, at 4 items its 100% or at 3 plus red pot. She isnt a great "i feel like this is a good design" based champion. She is a "well if her q does 40% of my health i cant fight her ever, but if its only 35% she will never be able to touch me" kind of champion in most matchups.

EonslegacyJun 21, 20191 votes

When ekko lands the stun. i feel like i deserved that loss. I feel like that ekko somehow managed to predict our entire team 3 and ahalf seconds ago and hit all our team. Then i realize ekko still sucks and loses even after he lands that stun because he doesnt do the same tier of damage as fizz just YOLOing the R into our group.

LovelleJun 18, 201923 votes

I disagree, I hate playing against champs like Vayne, Yasuo and Riven even when I win. I cannot stand the hypermobile champions. The players that enjoy these champions tend to flame the most as well, at least from my experience.

Voluug13Jun 18, 20198 votes

Its not your experience, Riven, Yasuo and Vayne mains were on the very top of toxic players on a graphic made a couple of years ago, and I dont think things have changed that much.

NelsieLisnenJun 19, 20191 votes

And that's a stereotype. League is filled with people that flame and are toxic, regardless of champion. Also I'd like a look on that graphic and the means of acquiring the data.

Voluug13Jun 19, 20191 votes

Its not, it was made with official data. It was years ago so I dont remember the source.

NelsieLisnenJun 20, 20191 votes

Just to be clear I'm not questioning whether the data exists or not, but I'm asking because data is rarely that simple. There are so many questions that could be posed here.

How do they measure toxicity/flaming?
How do they define it?
Who did they ask if they did at all?
How did they collect this information?
Does the data simply give the raw number of players that are toxic or percentages?
Is the data misleading because some champions have larger main pools than others?
Do they consider just players dedicated to a champ or anyone that plays it? It's a shame we can't have a look at it though. As a Yasuo main I was always interested in what makes people break and go stone age. Is it the champ itself or does the champ invite people of a certain mindset that makes them toxic?

UvecJun 19, 20192 votes

https://pics.me.me/bronzord-the-promos-slayer-how-not-to-do-your-promo-9334825.png

Relevant

Voluug13Jun 20, 20191 votes

Toxicus, the Flame Edgelord.

EonslegacyJul 11, 20191 votes

explain the move set, Is it zed R riven R vayne R yasuo R or lee? I feel like, its yasuos passive, lee sins Q, zeds W, Rivens E, and vaynes R. That way, you get 1 damage move that gets aimped, you get a dash, that can also dash(the lee q from the clone, can cause the clone to dash to its OWN target and then you can dash to it), and you go in stealth repeatedly, have massive sticking power, 2 shields, your clone also dashes via rivens E(more mobility please). Untouchable. Question is if BRONZORD's double crit passive is op or not :)

EonslegacyJul 11, 20191 votes

wait, what if we use vaynes condemn, lees kick, yasuos windwall, rivens dashes, and zeds passive. Free farm for days, and a garunteed wall stun whenever needed. nah feels weak. But windwalls a thing still. Kick someone then cast condemn during it so they fly through their team, then into a wall.

UvecJul 11, 20191 votes

Oh maybe try like: Lee passive, riven q, yasuo w, zed e (?), vayne r. That way you get spammable invis, attack speed after every bullshit spellcast (duh) and energy to spam e, and windwall, fuck windwall.

The thigh guyJun 18, 201911 votes

Depends if I feel like I’m being outplayed, or just out championed.

Like urgot a few patches back. Everyone lost to him, not because they got outplayed. But because urgot was not beatable. There was no outplaying him.

Where as if I lost to say, yoric. I know I missplayed, I got hit by his w when he had 4 ghouls up.

Hi Its SciroccoJun 18, 20192 votes

He's still in this day unbaitable because He's tank range that also happen to be the best conqueror abuser in game, I honesly still think he's Op intel today but he's just not popular anymore.

EonslegacyJun 21, 20191 votes

I sense WEAKNESS from you, EXTERMINATION!!! Man that ults still one of the worst designed moves in my opinion the sheer gold value that thing has vs anything with 1 hp item is insane. Oh and if you had shields LOL forgot those

OtterlyLostJun 18, 201910 votes

Fair point. Have an up vote.

Josh SandJun 18, 20196 votes

"Fun to play against" is not really a bullshit term. Its about as descriptive as "fair to play against" is.

You might feel like you dont have fun playing against certain champs that you lose to, but thats not the case for everyone.

I personally had fun playing against champions like Zed or Lee Sun or anyone with a skill-demanding play pattern. They have very clear windows when they can pull off some fancy moves, and you have to prepare for that and respond accordingly.

Skill matchups are some of the most fun things that can occur in this game. When a match feels fair, then it feels fun too. U less you are the type of person who is incapable of having fun unless you are always coming out the winner.

The problem isnt feeling like you got outplayed. Feeling like someone outskilled you creates a sense of competition and desire to improve.

The problem is when you feel like you got killed because of stats. If damage wasnt so goddam high, and skill champs required actual skill to kill people, it wouldnt feel so bad dying to them.

But when the match gets into a state where the opposing Irelia has over 3500 hp and is just one shotting me and/or my ADC after dashing around the battlefield nonstop, thats where the outplay feeling ends, as well as the fun I'm having.

Ahri Body PillowJun 18, 20195 votes

Not really. I can have fun while I'm being beat, especially if they're close fights. But if I'm just cowering under my tower because they re gonna targeted cc and then delete me in .2 seconds, that's unfun.

Playing dodgeball against Xerath but losing because he landed a madlife stun? Fun.

Losing against a Zed who executed his combos perfectly because he landed 3 shurikens on me without hitting any minions? I'm always like "damn, alright. That was pretty good. Deserved that one." Fun.

Laning against old Kassadain and getting jumped/silenced + getting slaughtered with no possibility of retaliation? Unfun.

Losing 80 percent of my HP with Seeker's Armguard because Zed dropped a shadow on me and Q E'd ? Unfun.

Losing can be fun, but some things are just straight up oppressive and suck the fun out of the game.

EleshakaiJun 19, 20192 votes

I have enjoyed many many games where I lost.

The foundation of your argument is that literally the only thing you are capable of enjoying is winning. Which is a pretty crappy way to look at things, even in a competitive setting.

GigglesOJun 19, 20191 votes

I enjoy playing against everything that isn’t hyper mobile with high damage...

EleshakaiJun 19, 20191 votes

Yep... we all have our own preferences.

I hate playing against hook champs, even when I win. It's just so stressful. And fiddlesticks. Fiddlesticks can die in a fire.(and since he's made of wood, he'd even be good at dying in a fire)

But I don't have too many problems with most mobile champions - it feels really satisfying when you predict what they're going to do and land that binding that gets them killed or pop that Soraka e under them and watch them flounder. There're a lot of mindgames you have to play against mobile champions, and - often even if they don't go in my favour - I enjoy those. But me enjoying them doesn't mean YOU have to enjoy them.