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@Riot listen to the real problem with Teemo from a Teemo Main (Ivan Pavlov)

Menchies··50 votes·4,914 views

Please before we start, don't just be like "Oh No A Teemo Thread, DOWNVOTE!" Thank you! Now we begin!

Everything Ivan Pavlov speaks in this video is truth and because of all this he does not want to play League of Legends anymore, and it's true, these are the list of issues that have slowly crippled Teemo over these past 10 months (especially item 3364 and it's trap disabling effect) now I want to speak about item 3364 for a second, there is nothing wrong with the sweeping part, it's the disabling effect, this disabling effect is so crippling when your playing Teemo because it can render Teemo 's Mushrooms useless for 10 seconds, allowing people to walk all over them in fights without them triggering literally making them irrelevant for the next 10 seconds, but the thing about this sweeper is that it sweeps and disables in an area around you (A pretty large one to), so people aren't just using this to clear mushrooms, they are literally just popping it in teamfights and render his mushrooms useless for the 10 seconds (when were trinkets supposed to ever be used for anything but vision control?), this has caused AP builds (wich i'm pretty sure you guys want him to be played this way Riot) to no longer be a viable option for quite some time now forcing us to use AD/Hybrid on hit builds (that teemo players call the "mallet build") that relies mainly on item 3022 and some other on hit type of items (Ex's.item 3091,item 3115,item 3153,item 3146, etc) but this just feels like an abomination to the playstyle of Teemo, the worst part is that we aren't just using the "Mallet Build" because we wan't to, but only because it's sadly the most effective way to play Teemo right now (and it's not as effective as AP was any season before this one), and another thing is that Teemo wasn't OP with 10 minute mushrooms, you guys think that the bounce on Teemo's mushrooms is useful when really not (but the throwing part was a good change can't deny that.) so why did you cut our shroom duration in half for this useless change?, Teemo wasn't op before item 3364 , so why do you keep adding additions to the game that always messes us Teemo players up Riot? I am really curious at this point. And NO, I am not going to just be like well Ivan Pavlov Quit league so I'm going to as well, I just really want to hear what Riot has to say about all of this.

Thank You

69 Comments

DrugsForRobots14 votes

Upvoted for Teemo and the stealth crew. Riot, where is the love for stealth?

Personally, I think the Sweeping Lens is a cool item with a cool effect, but disabling the traps is over the top. As a Shaco main, I sympathize with you, and I hope Riot will consider making the Assassin Update at the end of the year into the (long overdue) Stealth Update.

But lets talk about Teemo.

I love how Teemo has two ways of playing with vision (his passive and traps), but I think he could easily have another. Have you considered what it would be like if Teemo's Q did the nearsight effect like Quinn's Q instead of the '100% miss chance'? I'd like to see such a change happen to him, because I think it would be great for him. Nearsight is effectively 'psuedo-stealth' and if Teemo's Q nearsighted, it would have great synergy with his passive! (They lose sight of you, only to recover moments later and Teemo is nowhere to be seen...)

Did you know that Shaco has 3 ways of playing with vision? It's true. I want to see Riot take a gamble and double down on the stealth crew. Evelynn and Nocturne especially would benefit from more ways of playing with sight, stealth, detection, and denial, as it would give their kits powerful utility without buffing their numbers. It would also emphasize their themes (DARKNESSSSS) and make them really stand out in the champion roster.

But back to Teemo. I want justice for him and the rest of the stealth crew. To do that, to give Teemo and the rest the love they deserve, we (Riot) needs to see that stealth has proper counterplay, and, likewise, so does effects like the Sweeping Lens and Oracle's and Vision Ward.

If you'd humor me, I'd like you to take a look at these ward ideas. They're designed to provide defense against stealthed champions but each has counterplay inherent to it.

Ultimately, Riot will probably keep ignoring the elephant in the room (stealth) and they'll keep pretending champions like Teemo, Shaco, and Eve don't exist. I'm not giving up hope though. I think the future of League is entwined with sight, stealth, detection, and denial. I just wish Riot could see what I see.

It Hertz When IP2 votes

Don't take away his current Q. It's one of the remaining hard counters to Yi and Vayne.

DrugsForRobots2 votes

If Vayne or Yi is nearsighted for 2-3 seconds, they'd probably be shut down just as hard. The nature of nearsight would make them unable to click on enemies that weren't within ~200 units.

It Hertz When IP3 votes

I agree if they're closing in, but if Yi is already on top of my teammate, he'll keep going. Plus at my ELO sometimes I get lucky and they don't realize they're blinded, leading them to commit to duels they can't win.

DeathBurst4 votes

Upvoted for Teemo and the stealth crew.

And now I'm giggling in front of my screen, imagining Teemo as a grizzled old sergeant instructing Akali, Rengo, etc. how to properly use stealth, and all this mighty assassins obviously pissed to have to lister to a small plush.

67chrome7 votes

That video link doesn't work, as the video says it's private.

As for:

so why did you cut our shroom duration in half

Riot's vision changes.

When Teemo's shrooms lasted 10 minutes, there wasn't a limitation to the amount of wards any player could place down, and an item called Oracle's Elixir existed that gave truesight until their next death.

Main way to deal with Teemo was purchase Oracle's Elixir and a few green wards. Oracle's Elixir granted truesight that fallowed your champion much in the same way upgraded Red trinket does now, except the effect lasted until your champion died. The truesight would grant vision of any traps that weren't tucked away in brush, and you could plonk a green ward in suspect brush to extend your truesight there. Any traps that were revealed where easy to both avoid and kill.

After the vision changes, the per-player ward limitation made the vision Teemo's Traps provided much stronger relative to the darker map, and the removal of Oracle's and limitation of 1 pink per player made his traps much more of a permanent fixture. Due to his massive power spike from the vision changes, Riot nerffed Teemo. He was actually pretty strong for a short period of time and deserving of a nerf.

Menchies2 votes

{quoted}

That video link doesn't work, as the video says it's private.

As for:

Riot's vision changes.

When Teemo's shrooms lasted 10 minutes, there wasn't a limitation to the amount of wards any player could place down, and an item called Oracle's Elixir existed that gave truesight until their next death.

Main way to deal with Teemo was purchase Oracle's Elixir and a few green wards. Oracle's Elixir granted truesight that fallowed your champion much in the same way upgraded Red trinket does now, except the effect lasted until your champion died. The truesight would grant vision of any traps that weren't tucked away in brush, and you could plonk a green ward in suspect brush to extend your truesight there. Any traps that were revealed where easy to both avoid and kill.

After the vision changes, the per-player ward limitation made the vision Teemo's Traps provided much stronger relative to the darker map, and the removal of Oracle's and limitation of 1 pink per player made his traps much more of a permanent fixture. Due to his massive power spike from the vision changes, Riot nerffed Teemo. He was actually pretty strong for a short period of time and deserving of a nerf.

My bad, Will make the video unprivate for you and others to watch, Thank you for letting me know!

Sorry, now I got to read your full comment, They changed the shrooms life span to 5 minutes in august last year, there was a time where his shrooms lasted 10 minutes without oracles in the game and where he wasn't op, they changed his shrooms to 5 minutes to sacrifice for the bounce (wich is a useless mechanic):

Eedat6 votes

The problem with every Teemo argument ever is that people only want Teemo buffs without any compromise in weaknesses. You dont get to be a massive lane bully AND a super hyper scaler. Teemo's late game isnt even bad. Teemo is actually in a pretty good place overall actually.The nerf on the duration of the shrooms was absolutely justified with the removal of Oracle's Elixer. Sure, it didnt happen at the EXACT same time, but its pretty undeniable that the two are related. And before you say it, NO. item 3364 is not even close to as effective as item 2047. They compensated with the throw which actually is a massive buff to his shrooms. He no longer has to facecheck bushes to place shrooms and can throw them over walls. Now you are arguing that you want this massive buff AND the duration back which is just bs.

LadyRenly1 votes

{quoted}

The problem with every Teemo argument ever is that people only want Teemo buffs without any compromise in weaknesses. You dont get to be a massive lane bully AND a super hyper scaler. Teemo's late game isnt even bad. Teemo is actually in a pretty good place overall actually.The nerf on the duration of the shrooms was absolutely justified with the removal of Oracle's Elixer. Sure, it didnt happen at the EXACT same time, but its pretty undeniable that the two are related. And before you say it, NO. item 3364 is not even close to as effective as item 2047. They compensated with the throw which actually is a massive buff to his shrooms. He no longer has to facecheck bushes to place shrooms and can throw them over walls. Now you are arguing that you want this massive buff AND the duration back which is just bs.

actually, i am pretty certain they cut his shroom duration in exchange for giving him the gimmick of being able to throw the mushrooms

Eedat2 votes

which was shortly after the removal of item 2047, hence:

it didnt happen at the EXACT same time, but its pretty undeniable that the two are related

LadyRenly2 votes

{quoted}

which was shortly after the removal of item 2047, hence:

but Riot doesn't balance champions for Aram, otherwise Jayce would have been gutted already

Eedat2 votes

seriously? You do know Orscle's elixer was available on SR before right?

Menchies1 votes

{quoted}

seriously? You do know Orscle's elixer was available on SR before right?

Yes, I do know this, and I think riot removed it for a reason.

LadyRenly1 votes

{quoted}

seriously? You do know Orscle's elixer was available on SR before right?

obviously it must have been before my time then, because Teemo had his ult changed a good few months ago, perhaps coming on a year soon. And I've been playing the game almost two years

Sozan53 votes

It was removed in first patch of Pre-season 4, while Teemo changes happened on the very end of Season 5 - which makes it almost 2 years later, so no. It was not related at all.

The nerf Teemo got for removal of Oracle was decreasing his AP ratio to 0.5 from 0.8.

Menchies5 votes

{quoted}

actually, i am pretty certain they cut his shroom duration in exchange for giving him the gimmick of being able to throw the mushrooms

yeah but why can't he throw and have 10 minute shrooms? not like it would have ever made him op especially in his current state. And if we were back in last season and I had a choice I would choose non -throwable shrooms that last 10 mins over throwable ones that last 5.

DrugsForRobots4 votes

Upvoted to counteract all the negativity. Also, because Teemo can easily have very long lasting shrooms that are throwable.

The other commenters are ignoring (or don't see) the real problem - it's not the duration or damage - it's how the DoT is expressed.

Consider how Jhin's traps have a 'wind-down' delay before they explode. This is good counterplay - it's a chance to react. Teemo and Shaco's traps, on the other hand, are instant, with virtually no inherent counterplay (you need a trinket or ward to do anything about them). Teemo's trap in particular applies the entire poison DoT as soon as you hit one shroom. If Riot took a lesson from Jhin's design, maybe they could have Teemo's shrooms 'explode into a poison spore cloud' and have the DoT tied to being in the cloud (like Cassie's Miasma and Singed's Poison Trail). Likewise, for Shaco, his boxes really need to have a 'countdown' delay before being sprung. Think of the flavor!

This would make Teemo less 'oh, I hit a shroom, now I'm going to die, this is BS' and more 'oh, no! I better think fast and react appropriately, else I might take even more damage!' It would open his kit up to more utility because his damage from traps would be less oppressive.

Barduino8 votes

I don't understand how oracle elixir > sweeper lens. It's not the shroom detection that bothers us Teemo mains. It's the disable.

Say you have a teamfight brewing and you're an AP teemo. You have huge single target burst, some okay DPS with E. And you have no ultimate. One man bringing sweeper's lens will negate your only AoE for 10 seconds, if the teamfight even lasts that long. Shrooms have no usability in teamfights unless the enemy stumbles into them and ends up getting engaged upon. Even then, any self respecting team will activate sweepers when engaging / disengaging making shrooms useless outside of being a ward.

I personally don't want shroom duration buffs. But I find it super awkward to have my enemies blatantly run in a straight line towards me just because he activated sweepers.

Why doesn't this happen with Jhin traps?

StrangeHabits1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nightcore Run,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IfLAf0vA,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2016-06-22T06:46:36.688+0000)

I don't understand how oracle elixir > sweeper lens. It's not the shroom detection that bothers us Teemo mains. It's the disable.

Say you have a teamfight brewing and you're an AP teemo. You have huge single target burst, some okay DPS with E. And you have no ultimate. One man bringing sweeper's lens will negate your only AoE for 10 seconds, if the teamfight even lasts that long. Shrooms have no usability in teamfights unless the enemy stumbles into them and ends up getting engaged upon. Even then, any self respecting team will activate sweepers when engaging / disengaging making shrooms useless outside of being a ward.

I personally don't want shroom duration buffs. But I find it super awkward to have my enemies blatantly run in a straight line towards me just because he activated sweepers.

Why doesn't this happen with Jhin traps?

This^^

M Dragon143 votes

But the shrooms weren't designed for use in team fights. They were designed for zone control of jungle. Teemo isn't really designed to be a big team fighter. Why expect his kit to work for team fights, if that's not his role? He's made to pick off his targets, one by one, not aoe them down. If anything, his shrooms are more of a defence than an offence.

chipndip17 votes

Oh no, Teemo is a useless champion and Riot refuses acknowledge this, as does the player base. The grass is also green!

Look, the problem is that there's too many outdated champs and there's a fraction of this community that puts pressure on Riot to leave them that way when they need serious changes. Teemo's been left behind by the game. Period. He needs a massive overhaul. Plain and simple. His design does not fit in this game anymore, and it's horribly apparent. After Yorick, Teemo NEEDS to be the next major update project. I'm tired of that useless furball being on my team anyway.

dragon1xx2 votes

It's not that simple. On a superficial level, yes. But on a deeper level, no. Teemo is not outdated, IT IS JUST THAT HE ISN'T TAKEN HIGH ELO ANYMORE. However, if you look at his lower elo/leveling up to 30 stats, he is relatively popular. He's like Blitzcrank. Great for low elo because he punishes bad players but has low outplay options.

TwinkiePro1 votes

Blitz is played a lot in higher Elo still actually, and fairly frequently simply because he is incredibly good at picks. so no, blitz is not like teemo.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

It's not that simple. On a superficial level, yes. But on a deeper level, no. Teemo is not outdated, IT IS JUST THAT HE ISN'T TAKEN HIGH ELO ANYMORE. However, if you look at his lower elo/leveling up to 30 stats, he is relatively popular. He's like Blitzcrank. Great for low elo because he punishes bad players but has low outplay options.

Here's where you're wrong:

Blitz is actually strong in high elo. It's general competitive play where he doesn't see too much play because they're more organized and his hook backfires if he grabs a tank, coupled with the fact that he's only good for snowballing leads and doesn't offer much on defense, whereas competitive play favors defensive properties coming from supports. Teemo, on the other hand, is straight garbage.

Here's an exercise: Give me one strategically valuable thing Teemo does for his team. Like, truly valuable. Not something you pull out of your ass, but something he can actually accomplish. The problem is that there isn't one. He's a sub-par split pusher. He's a horrible team fighter. He has no range. He has no defensive moves. He can't jump over walls. He can't move while stealthed. The list of what Teemo can't do is massive.

This champion needs more than just help. He needs blatant SAVING.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

He can shut down Master Yi, Vayne, Udyr, and other AA reliant champs with one point and click ability, and he can make moving through his jungle a living hell.

That's about it.

dragon1xx2 votes

{quoted}

Here's where you're wrong:

Blitz is actually strong in high elo. It's general competitive play where he doesn't see too much play because they're more organized and his hook backfires if he grabs a tank, coupled with the fact that he's only good for snowballing leads and doesn't offer much on defense, whereas competitive play favors defensive properties coming from supports. Teemo, on the other hand, is straight garbage.

Here's an exercise: Give me one strategically valuable thing Teemo does for his team. Like, truly valuable. Not something you pull out of your ass, but something he can actually accomplish. The problem is that there isn't one. He's a sub-par split pusher. He's a horrible team fighter. He has no range. He has no defensive moves. He can't jump over walls. He can't move while stealthed. The list of what Teemo can't do is massive.

This champion needs more than just help. He needs blatant SAVING.

The valuable things Teemo does: Makes an ADC unable to farm during the laning phase so they are behind, has very offensive wards on a 30 sec charge time, kills the ADC and prevents it from damaging your carries, prevents low health enemies from getting away (I know we all hate toxic shot but at least you get an assist <3), denies crucial bushes, makes the red team spend a bunch of money on pink wards, and more. Teemo is unique, and valuable with his ward-nuke ultimate, his blind, and his toxic shot. All you are doing is showing off what Teemo can't do. He's old, but still works, and counters most toplaners with his blind. Never underestimate the power of the scout's code.

chipndip13 votes

{quoted}

The valuable things Teemo does: Makes an ADC unable to farm during the laning phase so they are behind, has very offensive wards on a 30 sec charge time, kills the ADC and prevents it from damaging your carries, prevents low health enemies from getting away (I know we all hate toxic shot but at least you get an assist <3), denies crucial bushes, makes the red team spend a bunch of money on pink wards, and more. Teemo is unique, and valuable with his ward-nuke ultimate, his blind, and his toxic shot. All you are doing is showing off what Teemo can't do. He's old, but still works, and counters most toplaners with his blind. Never underestimate the power of the scout's code.

Except:

  • Denying an adc farm during laning implies Teemo is in bot lane. Teemo is a garbage adc and he's a garbage support.

  • Offensive wards don't do jack shit if you're in a fight, which people will use to spike and make killing Teemo easier and easier.

  • A TON of champs kill adcs significantly more efficiently than Teemo can.

  • A TON of champs can kill stragglers more efficiently than Teemo can.

  • The fuck is "denying crucial bushes"? You see anyone of merit going ape shit because someone was "denied a bush"?

  • Basically any other stealth champ is gonna make the enemy buy a pink while still being more efficient in other areas than Teemo.

You need to look at this champ comparatively. You're looking at him in a vacuum by himself. Comparatively to any other champion, other champions bring significantly more to the table while being less of a hindrance to one's overall team comp AND still doing "enough" of what Teemo can do.

dragon1xx1 votes

{quoted}

Except:

  • Denying an adc farm during laning implies Teemo is in bot lane. Teemo is a garbage adc and he's a garbage support.

  • Offensive wards don't do jack shit if you're in a fight, which people will use to spike and make killing Teemo easier and easier.

  • A TON of champs kill adcs significantly more efficiently than Teemo can.

  • A TON of champs can kill stragglers more efficiently than Teemo can.

  • The fuck is "denying crucial bushes"? You see anyone of merit going ape shit because someone was "denied a bush"?

  • Basically any other stealth champ is gonna make the enemy buy a pink while still being more efficient in other areas than Teemo.

You need to look at this champ comparatively. You're looking at him in a vacuum by himself. Comparatively to any other champion, other champions bring significantly more to the table while being less of a hindrance to one's overall team comp AND still doing "enough" of what Teemo can do.

  1. ADC's aren't always bot lane, and Teemo isn't always top. Even if you are a meta sheep who only believes in tanks going top, Teemo hard counters most top laners, and especially Nasus.

  2. Ever heard of shrooming dragon+baron to get vision for the next 5 min? IDK man, like those aren't objectives worth having 5 min wards on......

3./4. I'll group these: Teemo does both so he's more of a Jack-of-All-Trades guy.

  1. See #2

  2. You say that now, right before you step on a shroom and see the full AP Teemo delete you.

I am not looking at him in a vacuum. I'm looking at him realistically, not in theory. If no one ever made mistakes, like in theory according to your post, then most champs wouldn't be viable ex: most assassins because if supports peeled perfectly, then assassins wouldn't ever get to the carry. Besides, Teemo is a Jack-of-All-Trades. You can't just look at one area and say, "He's bad because he doesn't assassinate well." Plus, League of Legends is ultimately a game about having fun, not being good or anything. For most players, the fun comes first and Teemo provides that for his player (although not for the others!).

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

  1. ADC's aren't always bot lane, and Teemo isn't always top. Even if you are a meta sheep who only believes in tanks going top, Teemo hard counters most top laners, and especially Nasus.

This isn't about being meta or not. Teemo doesn't do much of anything of value for his team that other more useful champs can't just replace him for. Teemo is basically Nunu in the fact that he works to make others more useless than he already is. Nunu does it against junglers, and Teemo does it against some top laners. Neither of these champs are considered "good". They just make others "bad".

  1. Ever heard of shrooming dragon+baron to get vision for the next 5 min? IDK man, like those aren't objectives worth having 5 min wards on......

That's not something one would use an entire champ slot for. Because, even if you have some vision on them, you need to fight for them, which Teemo is awful at team fighting. Who uses a champ slot for a glorified ward bitch? That's already the support anyway.

3./4. I'll group these: Teemo does both so he's more of a Jack-of-All-Trades guy.

That's just a cop-out for the fact that Teemo has no real identity in this game in general. People do whatever with Teemo because, honestly, what the fuck do you do with Teemo?

It's the same thing people say about Sona. "She's a jack of all trades", yet at the same time, "She's highly situational". Like, what type of "jack of all trades" is "highly situational" to use? Worst part is that she actually is a jack of all trades given her kit, but unlike Nami, who's probably more of one than Sona is, people feel the need to reiterate that line to explain why she's a lesser support than most of the support roster. It just gives something to point at when you realize your champ doesn't do much of anything well.

  1. See #2

Then see the response to 2. Supports are for warding. We need something else from top lane. Damage. Engage. Peel. Split pushing. Not a ward bitch.

  1. You say that now, right before you step on a shroom and see the full AP Teemo delete you.

In that blue moon he gets fed. However, ANY champ is strong when they're fed. I don't want a champ that's absolute garbage unless fed on my team. I want a champ that's in generally good unless feeding.

I am not looking at him in a vacuum. I'm looking at him realistically, not in theory. If no one ever made mistakes, like in theory according to your post, then most champs wouldn't be viable ex: most assassins because if supports peeled perfectly, then assassins wouldn't ever get to the carry. Besides, Teemo is a Jack-of-All-Trades. You can't just look at one area and say, "He's bad because he doesn't assassinate well." Plus, League of Legends is ultimately a game about having fun, not being good or anything. For most players, the fun comes first and Teemo provides that for his player (although not for the others!).

No, LoL is a COMPETITIVE game. Games are played to have fun, yea, but this game is the leader of eSports. The whole "Fun first and foremost" argument clashes with the notion that people that play this game are probably gonna be looking for a competitive fix, and that competitive drive is part of the fun for them. With that said, I don't support the notion that Teemo's kit stays this way. As the video already supports, Teemo's been literally left behind by Riot. There's more evidence for me than against me when I say Teemo's garbage and outdated.

dragon1xx1 votes

{quoted}

This isn't about being meta or not. Teemo doesn't do much of anything of value for his team that other more useful champs can't just replace him for. Teemo is basically Nunu in the fact that he works to make others more useless than he already is. Nunu does it against junglers, and Teemo does it against some top laners. Neither of these champs are considered "good". They just make others "bad".

So what? Even if Teemo does that, which he doesn't, the idea is that he hard counters top laners. That is why he is taken top. Plus he's impossible to gank anyways. And Teemo is not useless. This is where you're wrong. Teemo does so many things and is a Jack-of-All-Trades. The point is that he doesn't do one thing really well.

That's not something one would use an entire champ slot for. Because, even if you have some vision on them, you need to fight for them, which Teemo is awful at team fighting. Who uses a champ slot for a glorified ward bitch? That's already the support anyway.

EXCUSE ME?! ARE YOU LEGITIMATELY CALLING ME A GLORIFIED WARD BITCH?! WE PEEL FOR PEEPS LIKE YOU WHO JUST TURN AROUND, GET PENTAS, AND SAY "Oh it was 1v5 and I hard carried my team" ya da ya da ya da, when really us supports make sure you stay alive and make it to late game. Ok back to the main topic. Teemo is a Jack-of-All-Trades, and he's easy for noobs and people who just want to have fun.

That's just a cop-out for the fact that Teemo has no real identity in this game in general. People do whatever with Teemo because, honestly, what the fuck do you do with Teemo?

IDK, maybe he's fun for people who like messing around and having fun? Not everyone wants to be Faker.

It's the same thing people say about Sona. "She's a jack of all trades", yet at the same time, "She's highly situational". Like, what type of "jack of all trades" is "highly situational" to use? Worst part is that she actually is a jack of all trades given her kit, but unlike Nami, who's probably more of one than Sona is, people feel the need to reiterate that line to explain why she's a lesser support than most of the support roster. It just gives something to point at when you realize your champ doesn't do much of anything well.

Ok, so some champs are better than others in some areas. The point is, I've never seen Nami mid, let alone succeed, while Sona mid is semi-popular. It works, while Nami mid doesn't

Then see the response to 2. Supports are for warding. We need something else from top lane. Damage. Engage. Peel. Split pushing. Not a ward bitch.

Cuz, you know, supports don't peel or any shit like that. That'd be weird if they did. Besides, you should see a Teemo split push some time. Full AP Teemo destroys minion waves and turrets now that AP damage works on turrets.

In that blue moon he gets fed. However, ANY champ is strong when they're fed. I don't want a champ that's absolute garbage unless fed on my team. I want a champ that's in generally good unless feeding.

Ok, so even a split pushing Teemo that's feeding DESTROYS minion waves. And is impossible to gank well.

No, LoL is a COMPETITIVE game. Games are played to have fun, yea, but this game is the leader of eSports. The whole "Fun first and foremost" argument clashes with the notion that people that play this game are probably gonna be looking for a competitive fix, and that competitive drive is part of the fun for them. With that said, I don't support the notion that Teemo's kit stays this way. As the video already supports, Teemo's been literally left behind by Riot. There's more evidence for me than against me when I say Teemo's garbage and outdated.

Cool. I never said I don't think Teemo needs love. I say that Teemo is mostly fine where he is and doesn't need a Poppy level rework. Also, not everyone is as super-competitive as you are. Some players want to have fun or play whatever.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

So what? Even if Teemo does that, which he doesn't, the idea is that he hard counters top laners. That is why he is taken top. Plus he's impossible to gank anyways. And Teemo is not useless. This is where you're wrong. Teemo does so many things and is a Jack-of-All-Trades. The point is that he doesn't do one thing really well.

No, he doesn't do anything well at all outside of hard-countering a few picks.

EXCUSE ME?! ARE YOU LEGITIMATELY CALLING ME A GLORIFIED WARD BITCH?! WE PEEL FOR PEEPS LIKE YOU WHO JUST TURN AROUND, GET PENTAS, AND SAY "Oh it was 1v5 and I hard carried my team" ya da ya da ya da, when really us supports make sure you stay alive and make it to late game. Ok back to the main topic. Teemo is a Jack-of-All-Trades, and he's easy for noobs and people who just want to have fun.

No, I'm calling US glorified ward bitches. At least, that's what we're seen as. Still, that's an overstatement.

Regardless of that, supports are the main ward boys. You don't need a top lane slot dedicated to vision.

IDK, maybe he's fun for people who like messing around and having fun? Not everyone wants to be Faker.

Moot point in a topic about competitive balancing in a competitive game.

Ok, so some champs are better than others in some areas. The point is, I've never seen Nami mid, let alone succeed, while Sona mid is semi-popular. It works, while Nami mid doesn't

Sona mid is semi-popular in the niche crowd of Sona players, which is limited outside of low-elo play. Sona mid is also purposefully made unviable by Riot. Meddler said this himself.

Cuz, you know, supports don't peel or any shit like that. That'd be weird if they did. Besides, you should see a Teemo split push some time. Full AP Teemo destroys minion waves and turrets now that AP damage works on turrets.

Sure, as this guy, who'sa Diamond 3 Teemo main, literally gives up on the game because Teemo's useless in comparison to a ton of other possible picks. You could just pick Jax or Trynd and push harder than he does, seeing how they destroy towers way faster.

Ok, so even a split pushing Teemo that's feeding DESTROYS minion waves. And is impossible to gank well.

Not true but sure.

Cool. I never said I don't think Teemo needs love. I say that Teemo is mostly fine where he is and doesn't need a Poppy level rework. Also, not everyone is as super-competitive as you are. Some players want to have fun or play whatever.

This game is supposed to be the leader of eSports, not Mario Party. If Riot's vision is to ever come true, competitive integrity and balance will have to be at the forefront of concerns.

dragon1xx1 votes

{quoted}

No, he doesn't do anything well at all outside of hard-countering a few picks.

Nasus, Irelia, Darius, Garen. Most of these are popular regular queue picks, and some are occasional LCS.

No, I'm calling US glorified ward bitches. At least, that's what we're seen as. Still, that's an overstatement.

Regardless of that, supports are the main ward boys. You don't need a top lane slot dedicated to vision.

But you're ignoring his other abilities.

Moot point in a topic about competitive balancing in a competitive game.

1 game play noun \ˈgām\ a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement : Means having fun.

Sona mid is semi-popular in the niche crowd of Sona players, which is limited outside of low-elo play. Sona mid is also purposefully made unviable by Riot. Meddler said this himself.

Tank Ekko was not even supposed to exist. Yet he exists. So does tank Fizz, tank Diana, etc. Sona was an example, not the only one.

Sure, as this guy, who'sa Diamond 3 Teemo main, literally gives up on the game because Teemo's useless in comparison to a ton of other possible picks. You could just pick Jax or Trynd and push harder than he does, seeing how they destroy towers way faster.

You keep missing the point ;-;. He's a jack of all trades, MASTER OF NOTHING. Jax and Trynd are in fact countered by Teemo. And Teemo is a marksman.

Not true but sure.

You're right, my bad.

This game is supposed to be the leader of eSports, not Mario Party. If Riot's vision is to ever come true, competitive integrity and balance will have to be at the forefront of concerns.

Cuz we're all in LCS and stuff. LCS is so overblown. People now a days are like LCS OMG OMG OMG. But this game started small, and WITHOUT LCS. Teemo started out as one of the 40 originals. He's been here since and has gone along for the ride for a while.

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Nasus, Irelia, Darius, Garen. Most of these are popular regular queue picks, and some are occasional LCS.

And yet you don't smell Teemo near pro play for a reason. He's just not good enough at enough things, nor is he good enough at the things he's good at to compensate.

But you're ignoring his other abilities.

One is a move speed buff. One is a blind. One is on-hit poison. What other abilities? You throw shrooms, blind someone once in a while at the same range you AA, which is a measly 500, and then you AA things. If we needed a short range AA spammer, we'd use Lucian or Sivir...as we already do.

1 game play noun \ˈgām\ a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement : Means having fun.

And? In a competitive game, the competitive side of the game should be a good bit of the fun part of the game. You don't see Kobe Bryant scoring in his own goal for fun. Winning and perfecting your skills in the game should be part of the fun.

With that said, eSports is different from regular sports because we don't use our physical strength. We use characters in a videogame. The pieces we have available to us should be more or less well balanced so we can feel rewarded for learning those characters, not gimped. Yea, fun is important, but the fun should go hand-in-hand with the competitive aspect of the game because its core to its identity as a game at this point. I shouldn't have to explain this in full. You should know this.

Tank Ekko was not even supposed to exist. Yet he exists. So does tank Fizz, tank Diana, etc. Sona was an example, not the only one.

Technically, Diana was SUPPOSED to be a bursty ap fighter, not an assassin. Her play pattern is that of an assassin, minus the escape, and Riot admits they fucked that up. For other tanky assassins, that's more about Riot screwing up assassin risk/reward than anything else.

You keep missing the point ;-;. He's a jack of all trades, MASTER OF NOTHING. Jax and Trynd are in fact countered by Teemo. And Teemo is a marksman.

You're missing the point: He's generally garbage at everything unless he's fed. ESPECIALLY team fighting.

Cuz we're all in LCS and stuff. LCS is so overblown. People now a days are like LCS OMG OMG OMG. But this game started small, and WITHOUT LCS. Teemo started out as one of the 40 originals. He's been here since and has gone along for the ride for a while.

Who cares? The beginning isn't the issue. Where we're going is. Just because Teemo's one of the original champs doesn't mean his kit aged well. It hasn't. Even if you want to keep the shrooms, give him a more useful and rewarding basic kit with some counter-play so he's not a complete nuisance when he's actually a decent champ. Just because he needs work doesn't mean he has to be made into an unrecognizable Demacian frog prince. However, he still needs some serious work.

As for the LCS, eSports is pretty important for gamer culture in general. You think this game would have gotten so big without pro play and how it turned out?

Almighty Teemo3 votes

Riot does not give a damn about Ivan's perspective of things. Like when Ivan posted a rant thread in reddit and Phreak tried to contradict his arguments with shitty excuses, which, in the end, showed how ignorant riot was about Teemo, but more importantly how stubborn they are about their awful balance philosophy.

Their change was a gimmick just to make Teemo players shut up, just to pretend that they care about this champion; meanwhile the Teemo hate was encouraged by riot, since they did not officially punish people who were toxic towards Teemo or Teemo players. It has been an act of hypocrisy and insensitivity by riot, which the ignorant community took as a "joke", calling Teemo satan, even YEARS after he had been gutted to the point where calling him toxic would be actually unfair.

The Deckowner3 votes

Upvote as a fellow Teemo player, onhit build is nowhere as fun as ap teemo build, but due to stupidly broken item 3364 I have been unable to play AP teemo for months, and when I do I can only do the onhit build which, tbh does no where as much dmg as ap teemo.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

add magic pen to his shrooms like gps barrells.

RavensCapsOs2 votes

Teemo main here: I would be happy if they reworked teemo into a support champ. In my opinion if his shroom damage was completely gutted in favor of more utility, for instance they applied damage reduction, slow, whatever.
I think as a support, with a blind and the ability to create zones of impact, it would make him very exciting and fresh. His E would have to be changed though...

DrugsForRobots1 votes

Teemo could be a good support, as could Shaco. People underestimate the power / utility of traps. I don't think they'd have to gut his damage though, merely change the way it is applied.

I mentioned how Teemo's trap in particular applies the entire poison DoT as soon as you hit one shroom. If Riot took a lesson from Jhin's design, maybe they could have Teemo's shrooms 'explode into a poison spore cloud' and have the DoT tied to being in the cloud (like Cassie's Miasma and Singed's Poison Trail). It'd make him less oppressive and frustrating, while opening him up for some QoL utility buffs (I'd love to see his ulti slow enemies passing through it.)

Sozan52 votes

I think Rito should just do the following changes:

item 3364 - no longer disables traps or wards (still reveals them). Oh, and no lingering vision for targets that are outside of the trinket area (so, the second the trinket runs out or you move away, the vision is gone). item 3341 - keeps current effects + reveals (completely, like Vision ward) enemy champions in the area at levels 9+.

This would accomplish the following:

  • Sweeping Lens would be worth taking in some situations (right now, Oracle Alteration is simply superior and nobody past level 9 will take Sweeping).
  • You would be able to counter stealth based champions without having to use up an item slot for vision ward (as long as you use the trinket in the right area).
  • You would have the choice of either revealing and destroying traps in large area or disabling them in a small one.

Teemo doesn't need any changes as he is now, as long as the Sweeping and Oracle Lenses are changed.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

My question is, does anyone ever have fun laning against teemo? I mean, people have fun crushing him to the ground, but is fighting him any actual fun? Especially if you're a melee champ...

JRobin312 votes

The disable on the traps is pretty brutal. On the other hand, I can't imagine a world in which I go Frozen Mallet on Teemo. Maybe I should try it sometime, but I'm skeptical.

Blåbæret1 votes

Lmao, you want to buff teemo shrooms which takes 60-70% of a squishies health late game as well as buffing their already too long duration?

His shrooms already have close to no counterplay. Teemo is a toxic, anti-fun and annoying champion to fight and should not recieve any buffs whatsoever. He needs to be reworked or just removed from the game.

Barduino8 votes

{quoted}

Lmao, you want to buff teemo shrooms which takes 60-70% of a squishies health late game as well as buffing their already too long duration?

His shrooms already have close to no counterplay. Teemo is a toxic, anti-fun and annoying champion to fight and should not recieve any buffs whatsoever. He needs to be reworked or just removed from the game.

You sir obviously have no idea how to deal with Teemo. There are plenty of resources on how to stomp Teemo real hard, even when you blindpick Nasus into Teemo. I could help you with that if you want.

Shrooms are utterly countered by sweeper lens. You're immune to shrooms for 10 seconds upon activating sweepers. All you have to deal with is the little yordle himself.

Yes, we can 100-0 any squishy almost instantly. Guess who does that better? Leblanc, Ahri, Zed, Kha, Rengar, any assassin really.

I'm just going to disregard your last paragraph as that problem can be solved with a moderate dose of "gitgud"

Any other points?

It Hertz When IP3 votes

You forgot counterbuilding. Given that item 3156 and item 3001 exist, or if your support/tank builds item 3105 ......

Poske1 votes

Ugh so many wrong stuff with this post

  1. Teemo got gutted when they lowered shroom duration to 5 minutes from 10 minutes. They added gimmicky changes to teemo which none uses and called it a buff (Not to mention they increased shroom arm time)

  2. Nerfing Red Trinket is not the way to go. I am suprised you wouldnt want teemo buffed rather

  3. That "Mallet" build triggers me. It makes me want to say horrible things to you or any teemo player who thinks thats good build

Correct way to play teemo is go mid. SINCE ITS CENTER OF THE MAP.. NO TOP since its lonely island. NO jungle since you ll get counterjungled BUT MID just go mid

Get nashor tooth cdr some mana and just spam the map with shrooms

Teemo does need some buffs though. That teemo main is just not good enough to reach higher elo though

RavensCapsOs2 votes

Except that shroom mana costs are so restrictive, and the recharge rate is so long especially at early levels, that spamming shrooms is a near impossibility.

cvIddXsQkO2 votes

agree. wtf is up with that mallet build LOL.

Yfrappefort1 votes

Patch 5.15 (mushrooms down from 10 minutes to 5 minutes) combined with item 3364 really killed Teemo. No amount of buffs they give him (especially not mana buffs) will fix that.

His AP build got destroyed. He lost his indentity. He lost his niche.

Teemo suck now. No other way to put it. Many, many champions just do what he does but way better in any position. R.I.P. my main since season 1.

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