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Some Ideas for Karma's Mantra and Passive

Warden Karma··4 votes·2,346 views

#**Hello Summoners and Member Riots :) **

I am a “diehard” (old) Karma fan and if you do not share some of that enthusiasm this Thread might bother you. If so, you are free to leave it as it is, because it is about a Karma Rework ^^

#Dear Karma Players, For a long time now I were thinking about how Karma’s original Identity/Kit/Gameplay can be kept or in short: how some of her uniqueness can be maintained while not suffering from the Problems her old/new Kit has. I came up with Idea after Idea, some of them I posted, some I erased, but I never found my suggestions accepted by the majority of players. After some time I realized that Karma’s Fanbase is “broken” – extremely. Everyone expects something else and wants her to loose this or gain that. But beyond this Chaos, on top of a mountain, the sight becomes clear – Karma’s Fanbase wants the Passive changed and the Shieldbomb back. And her Fans! I think Karma wants to have her Fans back too ;)

Back to Topic: Recently I came up with an Idea that seemed good; good enough that I wanted to share it and gain other opinions of (Karma) Players. The 1 Idea quickly developed in 3 directions: I want to suggest to change how Mantra works.

Thats right I said Mantra not Passive (I will come to the Passive later too). No one can deny that Mantra is occupying all of Karma’s Identity – without Mantra there is no RQ, RW or RE. But Mantra would be pretty weak actually if you would remove the current Passive.

I know Mantra can only be as good as “the Abilities in between”, but I think there is room for Mantra becoming well… more unique :)

#-----------------------So here are my suggestions for Mantra---------------------

#---------------------------[Idea 1: “Construction Kit Mantra”]----------------------

Karma calls upon one of her inner Strenghts to empower the next Ability cast, forging it to a Basic Mantra-Ability and grating it a Bonus, depending on the Mantra being cast:

  * **[R]: Jia – Pain (Red Glowing)**
  Increases the Damage inflicted by X.

  * **[CTRL]+[R]: Phyla – Harmony (Green Glowing)**
 Shields all allied Champions within 950 of Karma for Y for each enemy Champion hit with the Mantra’d Ability plus Y(%) of their missing Health,  up to a maximum of Y(max).

  * **[ALT]+[R]: Saera – Magic (Blue Glowing)**

Adds the Utility to the Mantra’d Ability: Examples: RQ Stun on Detonation, RW AOE Root, RE Knockback

Problem: Readability for enemies/allies: Does that Cataclysm now Stuns me or slows me? Etc.

#----------------------------- [Idea 2: “Retroactively Mantra”]---------------------

Adds an additional effect to the choosen Cataclym,Shield or Rooting, depending on the Word chosen OR adds an additional effect to the last successfully cast Ability. (This means, regular empowered Abilities are no more, instead you cast an Ability and then follow after with the choosen Mantra-effect (Q leaves a Cataclysm-Slow field).

  • [R]: Jia – Pain (Karma glows Red) Detonates the targeted Shield/Rooting/Cataclysm dealing X magic Damage to all Enemies within X® Range.

  • [CTRL] + [R]: Phyla – Harmony (Karma glows Green) Karma grants each allied Champion within 1000 Range of the targeted Effect a Shield of Y.

  • [ALT] + [R]: Saera – Magic (Karma glows Blue) Adds the Utility to the Mantra’d Ability: Examples: RQ Stun on Detonation, RW AOE Root, RE Knockback

More Readability: Enemies/Allies know that Karma can manipulate the Shileds/Roots etc.

#------------------------------- [Idea 3: “Reversed Mantra”]---------------------

Empowers the next Ability cast or reverse the additional effects.

  • [R]: Normal
  • [R] + [Alt]/[CTRL]: Mantra Effect is reversed. E.G: RE -> instead of an AOE Shield it does AOE Damage, RW: Cleanse on self, RQ: Heal/Shield

Problem: Clarity: Enemies/Allies know that Karma can reverse the effects, but Allies might mistake the Damage for a Shield etc.

#-------------And as I mentioned, suggestions for the Passive too-------

Those Ideas will grant Karma a Different Passive whether Mantra is on Cooldown or not.

[for all] Mantra on Cooldown: Each time, Karma deals Damage to an enemy Champion, the Cooldown of her Mantra is reduced by 1 Seconds (half for Auto-Attacks).

Mantra available: Each time, an enemy Champion deals Damage to Karma or an allied Champion within 1000 Range, Karma gains 1 Resilience, showing as little flying Butterflies around her (max 2).

  • (1) Each Resilience stores 4 (+2 per Level) Ap.

  • Casting an Ability will consume 1 Resilience (2 for Mantra’d) and strengthen the Ability with the AP.

  • (2) like in [Idea 2: “Retroactively Mantra”], but you can cast Mantra normally with a set effect. Each “Resilience” grants Karma 1 Interaction with one of her Spells (pressing Q/W/E again) (e.g.):

  • Q – Detonation stuns

  • W – Aoe root

  • E – Shield Detonates in magic Damage

The Idea behind that was (aside from making the Passive more interesting), to prevent “invisible” Power like her old Passive granted (hard to see). Instead Karma will get a good visible indicator whether or not she has “Resilience”. Also this Idea was greatly inspired from Old Karma’s Mantra visual Indicators as seen here (the "Butterflies"):

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/c/c6/Karma_OriginalSkin_Ch.jpg

I know Karma’s Kit (Q/W/E) is still a “mess” and might need additional (re)work, but as I said I just wanted to hear some Feedback on the rather “complicated” Mantra Ideas and the Idea to implement back those swirly little Butterlies as an Indicator for somekind of Passive.

#**Thank you for reading and especially for your Feedback :) **

25 Comments

Challenger Karma2 votes

i love Karma how she is now, and im afraid of her gettin nerfed soon she feels strong and healthy

SilverSquid2 votes

First of all; your formating skills are incredibly sexy. And also, thank you for caring so much about my favourite champion and making such an effort.

However, to your ideas; I do not think that using multiple buttons is a good idea. It seems to complicate things for the sake of depth, and I think good design offers depth without being too complicated. It also seems unintuitive and really hard to make readable. Also having so many options spends Karma's power budget on versatility. Not that there is anything wrong with versatility in principle, but this just doesn't really give her a role either and again makes her very generalistic.

Karma would need a rework, that narrows down her viability in a certain niche, that she can call home. Personally, I prefer to go for "damage manipulation" or "health manipulation" and try to cut out as much of any CC as possible. She could offer damage from botlane and protection from midlane, however, it would need to have a certain unique spin to it.... and by unique I don't mean "using more buttons than other champions", but actually unique ingame tools that give her a reason to be picked. Like damage transferring for example.

Similar things apply to your proposed passive.

Please don't feel discouraged by my criticism to work on Karma. I think your dedication and imagination is admireable. I also want as many people as possible partake in coming up with ideas the community might be able to agree upon and maybe catch Riot's interest.

Thanks again, for caring!

Warden Karma1 votes

I do not think that using multiple buttons is a good idea. It seems to complicate things for the sake of depth

I have no Problems in using multiple buttons with combinations (maybe because I used to play WoW where I had dozens of CTRL/ALT/SHIFT combinations, but this is LoL not WoW so I agree that it might not be the best direction it could take.)

and I think good design offers depth without being too complicated.

I agree. I think my favorite "comparison" for that is Orianna: Her Orb is her play around center, restricting as it is empowering for her. Her Abilities can be combined simply but interestingly with a meaningfull impact of the Abilities effects. On top of that her Kit in essence is simple and is healty/offers counterplay. You can go for AP and concentrate on dealing Damage and Orianna will put out insanly Damage - if played right. Or you focus on the underlying Utility of her Abilities. A good Orianna will try to use both as effectivle as possible, but the Damage and Utility sometimes exclude one another, leading to situation where you sometimes have to decide if you focus on the Utility, lets say shield an ally and grant said MS or poistion your Orb with Q, followed by a W for good Damage on the enemy.

I think Karma should have this level of uniqueness as well as using-versatility of Abilities, which restricts and empower themselves, depending on the decision made. A bad example would be her current Q. It is the only primary Damage source of a Mage, that does not pass through all targets/is point and click, always making you go for an awkward Position just that you can hit it. Also the slow is not Impactfull. RQ feelsmore impactfully, but still is heavely restricted (it can not hit its own Damage without the enemy making mistakes or being hard CC'd). Her Q literally feels like a watered down Version of Lux' E. It just seems much worse, exept maybe the base damage at the start. But it seems necessary because without her Abilities being watered down, Karma would go... well "Banana" as she currently is.

The Original Karma was more like Orianna (and with that I do not mean her clunky Abilities/counterplay etc.): The Old Q was a medium Range cone shaped Damage tool. Only Damage nothing else. Mantra'd Q put a Heal under it.

You could decide whether you focus on the harming part of that Ability or the healing part. Again, a good Karma will try to use both.

Maybe Karma's Mantra should be what Orianna's Orb is for her.

There is of course the Problem with the Shieldbomb: while feeling extremely good to use, it also has some "fairness" issues. I can grant a massive shield WITH massive Damage? Dont get me wrong I loved Shieldbomb, but that is a problematic aspect of it.

This of course does not mean everything of a Champions kit needs to be absolutely counterplayable and unsafe, of course not.

I wonder if Karma players favors the old or the new Q... the mid range cone or the long range skillshot. The Q is actually very important part of Karma's Identity. If you leave it as a long range Skillshot, she will be... well a long range (poker). If you change it back to Q, Karma would become again more a close combat mage. Both Q's have a strong impact on the rest of her Kit: With long range the new Q grants, she can not have a super strong shield she used to have as a close range Mage etc..

Oh well, I guess I kinda ended writing much more than I should have (and even things like everyone knows)

I would like to ask you if you agree with the Orianna "expectation in Design" for Karma and also if you prefer Old or New Q and well... Do you like the straightforward using of Mantra (More of the same) more than the "Dualism" Mantra?

Also what do you think about Mantra changing the skill as a whole/ seperates it from the Basic one. E.G. Q --> Damage RQ --> Heal without the Damage of basic Q. They could still share Utility on them eg a slow stays on both or the slow is converted into a Speed up.

And thank you very much for caring about my post too^^ (I were prepared for downvotes/flames/ignorance, as you should be when you post about Karma.)

SilverSquid1 votes

I would like to ask you if you agree with the Orianna "expectation in Design" for Karma and also if you prefer Old or New Q and well...

Expectation? Like, that they are very much alike? Yes. People tend to compare her to Lulu, Janna, but for propper design and anchoring her in midlane, comparing her to Orianna seems more reasonable.

Old Q was problematic, because it had no counterplay to it. New Q is problematic, because it makes her a longrange poke mage, when so much of her identity was a shortrange burstmage.... now she has burst and strong shortrange tools (W). This is a dangerous watering down of her identity. I liked old RQ a lot, because of how much skill it asked of you. Propper consideration of the situation and good positioning for best output. Finding situations in which you can hit as many enemies and allies at the same time was hard. However, it was also problematic, because telling your allies to group so you could heal them was frustrating at times. New RQ is only boring, in my eyes (and I am speaking more from a design perspective here). The mega-hadouken from her lore seems like lazy writing and basically cheating in something that feels more awesome, than it is. People also think this ability does more damage, than it actually does, because it's just two damage spells at once. It's deceptive, but in the bad way.

Do you like the straightforward using of Mantra (More of the same) more than the "Dualism" Mantra?

As you noted, Mantra is Karma's identity. However, many other champions get this "empowering" effect as a side dish to their identity. LeBlanc has her crazy mobility and deceptive passive, in addition to her copy ultimate. Rengar has his invisibility, unique resource and one-shot potential, in addition to his empowered basic abiliites. Heimer has his turrets that make up most of his character already. Just giving Karma something so common, but just more often, isn't enough to give her a propper identity. The dualistic note was the only thing differentiating her from them in a meaningful way.

This is why I strongly oppose the changes to her mantra in 5.10, taking away the damage aspects of RW and RE. I do think that RE had nice drawbacks, because the damage wasn't too high and if the enemy team didn't enable her, she would usually have to decide between dealing damage with it or shielding her allies.... sometimes being able to maximize it was a show of skill, which Riot removed....

Also what do you think about Mantra changing the skill as a whole/ seperates it from the Basic one.

I find it interesting, but I don't understand how this would profit her in terms of identity or gameplay?

I were prepared for downvotes/flames/ignorance, as you should be when you post about Karma.

I think staying neutral with Karma posts can be considered an achievement already^^.

Warden Karma1 votes

Old Q was problematic, because it had no counterplay to it. I liked old RQ a lot, because of how much skill it asked of you.However, it was also problematic, because telling your allies to group so you could heal them was frustrating at times.

And If Q would look somewhat like this?: **[Q:] ** Deals 30/ 60/ 90/ 120 (+20% AP) magic damage in a cone in front of her, leaving a Cataclysm, which slows Enemies inside for 25%. After 1,5 Seconds, the Cataclysm explodes, dealing 45/ 90/ 135/ 180/ 225 (+50% AP) Magic Damage to all enemies Inside.

+Mantra Increases the Slow to 50%. In addition, Karma shields every allied Champion within 950 Range for 10/30/50/70 for each enemy Champion hit with the (Impact/?) detonation Damage plus 5% (+2% AP) of their missing Health.

It would grant more Counterplay, as you can easily avoid standing inside the Cataclym, which mean you will only take a third of damage and deny a bunch of shield for her allies.

Currently I have 2 Reworks in the works (XD), the Q is taken out of one of them.

If you are interested I can share some more of my ideas?

SilverSquid1 votes

Hard to tell. It's like staring at Yasuo's Q and trying to find out if it could work on a champion. It depends a lot on the kit it's in.

What I like about it is the duality of it, and it kind of feels like a semi ultimate, with the teamshield. What I dislike is, that using it doesn't seem to have any change in game dynamic and it doesn't have any tradeoff. You still want to hit as many enemies as possible.

Depending on whether your other spells grant you tools to play around with people standing in there or you getting into position, it might be good or bad tho. Also depends a lot on the mantra system.

Check out my posts if you are interested in my Karma reworks :P. But yeah, feel free to share some ideas!

Warden Karma1 votes

Check out my posts if you are interested in my Karma reworks :P. But yeah, feel free to share some ideas!

(You wrote a lot of Karma related Threads, I already read most of them more or less, but when I have time etc. Ill read them again :) )

Well then prepare for a wall of text ^^ (actually not because I decided to formate it ^^)

Generell: I am happy with the Direction (more to the original concept, still better Counterplay/Healthiness), especially E/RE/W/Q. Maybe Problematic: Q might sound kind of weird, there is a lot on her Basic Abilities, Mantra is quite simple (RQ for turn around battles, RW (CC?), RE Damage). A bit too far in the Support direction.

-----------------------------------------------------------------[Passive:] Dualism-------------------------------------------------------------

  • All of Karma’s Abilities have a dualistic Aspect to them, giving them the Potential to harm enemies and aid allies alike.

--------------------------------------------------------------------[Q:] Inner Flame-------------------------------------------------------------

Karma fires a burst of energy that detonates upon hitting an enemy, dealing 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250 (+ 60% AP) magic damage to all nearby enemies and slowing them by 25/27,5/30/32,5/35% for 1.5 seconds.

  • [Passive:] Allies that are touched by Inner Flame or are within 350 Range of an enemy Champion hit by Inner Flame will receive “Inner Fire”. Units gaining Inner Fire are shielded by 40 / 65 / 85 / 105 / 125 (+ 30% AP) for 3 Seconds.

OR:

-----------------------------------------------------------------[Q:] Heavenly Wave-------------------------------------------------------------

(Preferred due to the better fitting with the rest of the kit)

Karma deals 30/ 60/ 90/ 120 (+20% AP) magic damage in a cone in front of her, slowing them by 25% for 1.5 seconds, leaving a Cataclysm behind, which slows enemies who steps on it for the same amount. After 1,5 Seconds, the Cataclysm detonates, dealing 45/ 90/ 135/ 180/ 225 (+50% AP) magic Damage to enemies inside.

  • [Passive:] Allies that are touched by Heavenly Wave receive “Inner Fire”. Units gaining Inner Fire are shielded by 40 / 65 / 85 / 105 / 125 (+ 30% AP) for 3 Seconds.

->Karma creates a Zone, which grants Allies refuge and zones enemies. Counterplay: Damage is separated, hard to hit as much enemies and allies as possible. I decided for a Shield instead of a Heal so that Karma can not heal up her teammates outside of Battles (also prevents the situations: now all come together and say cheese!).

-----------------------------------------------------------------[RQ:] Soulflare-------------------------------------------------------------

Karma concentrates her Inner Fire, granting all Allies and herself within 600 Range 50/100/150/200 (+35% AP) Shield. Inner Flame leaves an area of effect after the impact that slows enemies inside by 35%. If Soulflare does not strike a target, the area is created at maximum range. After 1.5 seconds, the area detonates, dealing 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 (+ 60% AP) magic damage to all enemies inside.

OR

-----------------------------------------------------------------[RQ: Heavenly Wave]------------------------------------------------

Enlarges the Cone by 50%. Allies with Inner Fire gain an increased Shield equal to 10% (+2% AP) of their missing Health.

  • -> “turn around battles”,Kind of unhappy with it.

--------------------------------------------------------------**[W: Focused Resolve] **-----------------------------------------------

Karma forms a tether between her and the target for 2 seconds, sharing 50% Damage of a hostile source between the bounded, up to a maximum of 40/80/120/160/200 (+10% AP) Damage transferred. Upon transferring maximum Damage, the tether breaks.

  • Enemy: If the tether is not broken, the target is rooted for 2 seconds. Also granting true sight of them for the duration.
  • Ally: Shares and all Shields, Heals, Regenerations and Movementspeedbuffs.

Comment: Counterplay here would be as an enemy just to step out of Range (like live W, quite easy) or attacking Karma, suffering Damage but breaking the tethter which prevents the root. If Karma tethers an ally, just attack them to break it as fast as possible.

------------------------------------------------------------------[RW: Renewal]-------------------------------------------------------------

  • Enemy: When the enemy gets rooted, it will also Spiritbound all of his/her allies within 350 Range. Getting hit by Inner flame will spread the root to enemies within that range.
  • Ally: Also shares all Shields, Heals and Movementspeedbuffs to all other allies within 600 Range.

Comment: Kind of unhappy with that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------[E: Inspire]-------------------------------------------------------------

Karma shields the target ally or herself by 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 50% AP) for 4 seconds and grants them 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60% bonus movement speed for 1.5 seconds.

  • [Passive:] The Shield emits a Pulse, dealing 50 / 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 (+ 30% AP) magic Damage to all Enemies within 300 Range of the target.

Comment: Damage on the Shield is risky to use: stay close to the enemy or cast it on a minion, which leaves you more vulnerable. Shielding too late will “waste” a portion of the Shield, while Shielding too early might “waste” the Damage.

-------------------------------------------------------------------[RE: Defiance]-------------------------------------------------------------

The shield overflows with energy, increasing the Range of the harmful Pulse by 300 and its Damage by 50/100/150/200 (+60% AP) and granting all allies within the Range a 60% bonus movement speed for 1.5 seconds.

-------------------------------------------------------------------[R: Mantra]-------------------------------------------------------------

Empowers the weaker dualistic Aspect of the next Ability cast. Charges: 1 _[Passive:] _ Reduces the Cooldown of Mantra for each enemy Champion damaged by 1 Second (half for AA’s).

I am curious how you see my Ideas^^

EDIT: found an interesting Quote from senior narrative writer George "Glorft" Krstic. “Don’t wreck a champ by destroying the things that players really like. You can’t make Wolverine suddenly not have claws.”

The feels.

SilverSquid1 votes

I'll have to keep short, since I'm still fighting my tenosynovitis. One of the reasons why I've grown a bit silent on Karma. Once I am fit again, I will return to posting weekly. But now to your ideas:

Passive I guess I don't have to explain why this feels like cheating^^

Q - Inner Flame A straight upgrade might not be wise. I like that other spells can be leveled these days. Making the slow scale makes leveling Q even better. Applying the shields is awkward. Basically an AoE version of Victor's e? It's also very hard to explain visually why the spell would shield when passing allies.

Q - Heavenly Wave A bigger Poppy Q might work, but having a propper size might be a problem. Probably make it a travelling wave in the cone-shape, to differentiate it a bit? Also having multiple AoE shield options in a kit is... a balance disaster.

RQ - Inner Flame A meaningful nerf with the reduced slow to justify the shields? Dunno if this is enough.

RQ - Heavenly Wave Yeah, as you noted, boring. Would be interesting, if it would create waves in two opposing directions or something. Or if only the ultimate shielded, but this counteracts your passive. But your passive is boring anyways :P.

W - Needs a different name I like it, also the idea with counterplay. Values might be all over the place, but the idea is solid.

RW - Also needs a better name In one of my reworks this would link all possible targets, but I wasn't happy with it either. Making a coherent W spell is pretty hard. The multi-target linking probably needs restrictions for certain heals (soraka), multi target effects (locket) and ultimate speeds (yi). Maybe. You can try playing with range or allowing double targets, or creating an area that does X. Maybe you can come up with something.

E - Inspire I like the limited damage area. But a shield that hurts, protects and speeds is probably too much power. Also please think about whether you want W to also transfer E's damage.

** RE - Defiance** Ironically the only ultimate that doesn't offer AoE shields :D. But I really like it. Nice tradeoffs, fits the character. Only current Karma fans won't like it. But King made a pretty good point why those probably aren't the best audience when presenting Karma reworks.

R - Mantra Probably doesn't need "1 Charge", because technically most spells have 1 charge ^^

GENERALLY SPEAKING I like the direction it's going, it's still a bit bumpy. But keep on working. Or feel free to steal from some of my reworks, if it can help your kit out in any way.

“Don’t wreck a champ by destroying the things that players really like. You can’t make **Karma **suddenly not have fanweapons.”

Someone @Riot please listen to this man!

Warden Karma1 votes

Oh, hope you get better soon :( Karma needs you ! ^^

** RQ - Heavenly Wave** Would be interesting, if it would create waves in two opposing directions or something.

I actually had that Idea XD RQ would be castable like Lulus' Q, but it would be... well... like Lulu's Q, but with greater AOE, possible equal slow, an Area, and shields? Dont know if it would be the right direction mechanically, but possible nontheless.

W - Needs a different name I like it, also the idea with counterplay. Values might be all over the place, but the idea is solid.

Maybe... Spiritbond? :D

RW - Also needs a better name In one of my reworks this would link all possible targets, but I wasn't happy with it either. Making a coherent W spell is pretty hard. The multi-target linking probably needs restrictions for certain heals (soraka), multi target effects (locket) and ultimate speeds (yi). Maybe. You can try playing with range or allowing double targets, or creating an area that does X. Maybe you can come up with something.

The Problem I always run into it is that I liked the Idea of a reworked Old Karma's tether (RW), which rooted instead of slowed enemies on touch. It felt just... right. The upgrade of a slow is a root (W was more a Upgrade instead of a swap in effects because it was already useable in a dualistic way).

And that leads to well... I dont want to overshadow Morgana's R^^

E - Inspire I like the limited damage area. But a shield that hurts, protects and speeds is probably too much power. Also please think about whether you want W to also transfer E's damage.

I thought about transferrings E'S Damage, but it lead to Problems. Like if you Mantra it. 2xRE Damage in a huge, instant, AOE? If W would only transfer a basic version of E that might feel... strange.

Comparing E to Ori's E: Shield-Shield MS- AR/MR DAMAGE - DAMAGE

Ori's Damage is a bit more difficult to apply, but has more range and the shield is better. Karma's damage is easier to apply, but riskier.

But yes, it still looks a bit overloaded.

RE - Defiance But I really like it. Nice tradeoffs, fits the character.

I did like the first rework version with the "mild" AOE shields too, it fit the theme of "Defiance". But...

R - Mantra Probably doesn't need "1 Charge", because technically most spells have 1 charge ^^

... I were thinking to give Karma 2 Mantra Charges back.

I mean Riot wanted them to feel more ultimately, but thats like trying to make Udyr's R feeling Ultimately... its just not intended to be. But if you use 2 Mantra Charges, the Combination of those will feel ultimately, although not in the traditional way of : BUMM! CC! SHIELD!. I felt Karma was more a "background" Force, mostly unnoticed (expect you were fed and RE'd XD), but still impactfull on her own way. <Bad example> Its somewhat like comparing the Impact of a Support to a ADC. ADC's are normally those who shine, even when the Support did all the Background Carry. You wouldnt blame Soraka for not damaging/stunning the enemies because you know she is a healer. </Bad example>

Ill be back. :D

(with more Ideas)^^

SilverSquid1 votes

Hi there. Sorry for the delay, but the longer posts get, the more I tend to place them back in the priority line. Double posts especially. Still not fit again, so I have to take it slow.

RQ would be castable like Lulus' Q, but it would be... well... like Lulu's Q, but with greater AOE, possible equal slow, an Area, and shields?

Lulu and Taric now already book a huge part of the design possibilities in that regard. I have started shying away from using this double-spell-origins, because I don't see how Karma could use it meaningfully.

Maybe... Spiritbond? :D

Clever :D

The Problem I always run into it is that I liked the Idea of a reworked Old Karma's tether (RW), which rooted instead of slowed enemies on touch. It felt just... right. The upgrade of a slow is a root (W was more a Upgrade instead of a swap in effects because it was already useable in a dualistic way).

If you move the MS part from E to W, I think W could be similar to what it used to be. Pushing the root to RW (touch) could make sense, as well as slowing/stunning enemies when they leave the W/RW range. You can also try to make the tether a DOT-Area, in which enemies take damage per tick standing in it. There is a lot you can do here, it just has to work with the rest of the kit (if you include a root, you might probably want her benefiting from it, if you give her gapclosers, let her survive there, etc.)

I thought about transferrings E'S Damage, but it lead to Problems. Like if you Mantra it. 2xRE Damage in a huge, instant, AOE? If W would only transfer a basic version of E that might feel... strange.

You can only let it transfer the basic version, or simply make the effect not stack. This way it would only increase the reach, not the power.

But yes, it still looks a bit overloaded.

Karma's W tends to do that, because it holds the kit together.... and her different identities. And ideologies. It's really hard to nail it down and make it interesting in terms of gameplay.

I mean Riot wanted them to feel more ultimately, but thats like trying to make Udyr's R feeling Ultimately... its just not intended to be. But if you use 2 Mantra Charges, the Combination of those will feel ultimately, although not in the traditional way of : BUMM! CC! SHIELD!.

I agree on the Udyr example. I think it's a mistake to treat mantra as an ultimate. It doesn't work. Using two charges, however, requires you to adress the issues why they were removed in the first place though. I at least would limit her pre-6 to 1 charge, to keep her laning in check, but also allow her a comparable powerspike at 6.

1st Idea If you make W useable on minions, the MS should be selfcastable enough. But yes, the synergy is gone... kind of. Unless you allow Karma to use W to approach someone and hurt them reliably with E.

2nd idea I think only speeding up if dealing damage is an interesting condition. I would let the same apply for Karma and the allies tho. Karma seems to favour supporting melees anyways. But the burst of MS might allow squishies to escape more easily too?

3rd idea Alternatively you could also delay the damage part by 0.5s or give it travel speed.

RW I am kind of lost. It really depends on what position you want RW to have in the kit, and what role it should have. Your suggestions are all over the place^^. Morg is meant for initiation and combos with her Q. This one should either dissuade attackers, or spread utility or trap people with damage conditions or force minigames or.... what ._.?

Warden Karma1 votes

Thank you for your Feedback :)

Hi there. Sorry for the delay, but the longer posts get, the more I tend to place them back in the priority line. Double posts especially.

No Problem, I am happy that there is someone willing to read through my Ideas^^

If you move the MS part from E to W, I think W could be similar to what it used to be. Pushing the root to RW (touch)...

While I liked the W touch game, it appeared to me that even many old Karma players did not like it so much (not to speak of what Riot thinks about it). So I am kind of careful with implementing such interaction.

Passive I guess I don't have to explain why this feels like cheating^^ But your passive is boring anyways :P.

What if I turn it around a little? Instead of that the Passive would grant basic Abilities another effect, it would look somewhat like this:

All of Karma’s Abilities grant Allies and herself in the Area of effect a fracture (30/40/50%) of the damage dealt to enemies as a 3 Second Shield, refreshing its time and stacking its strength each time it is applied.

That means of course that it would be kind of similiar to what it was before but: It only applies if Karma hit enemies (as much as possible) and allies alike. hmm I guess I would run in the Kind of same Problem, Heavently Wave had (Your allies need to position well), so it will be hard to use both effects (Ability and Passive) entirely. On the other hand it asks a lot of skill from you too.

It applies a dualistic effect and is somewhat karmatic (punishes enemies for fighting allies).

Warden Karma1 votes

Some Ideas^^

#1st Idea:

[E: Inspire] Karma shields the target ally or herself by 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 / 200 (+ 50% AP) for 4 seconds and grants them 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60% bonus movement speed for 1.5 seconds. The Shield emits a Pulse, dealing 50 / 80 / 110 / 140 / 170 (+ 30% AP) magic Damage to all Enemies within 300 Range of the target.

Ms moved to W(ally) or maybe Q (Q: Slow,damage - RQ Speed/..heal? would make an excellent dualistic effect)

Problems:

  • Ms again not selfcastable
  • W Synergy kind of "destroyed"

That would also change RE: [RE: Defiance] Increase Range and Damage of E, applying a fracture as shield to allies.

#2nd Idea:

[E: Inspire] Shield, limited range damage. MS is conditional too---> Speeds ups Karma if she hits an enemy with the Damage. Allies are always sped up (?).

That would make the usage of E very different as you can not speed up one easily and you have to W first.

#3rd Idea:

Well simpliest, but possible not the best one: nerf MS speed/duration, maybe change it to like 4 Seconds Duration but only 15-20% Speed up etc.

#Regarding RW

-still not so happy-

[RW] Enemy: Karma also bounds all enemies within range (think Morg), for each enemy the tether has a seperate maximum of Damage (means that every enemy has to damage karma to break his/her bond to her, if they manage to free themselves, they can help breaking other tethers). So Kind of Morg Ult (haha I just said I dont want to overshadow it, gg) Maybe somekind of Heal when Karma manages to root for all allies/ Heal whenshe is attacked? _**Ally: **_An allied Morg ult (the same just with allies).

Quepha1 votes

Pretty sure Riot is extremely averse to making additional keys a necessary part of champion kits. In the rare instances where a champion uses alt+click to command a minion they try to make the minion AI good enough to be reasonably effective without any commands as well as usually having the same spell cast button perform the same command action.

They've also talked about how 'reversal' type skills like you described generally play out much worse for players than you expect.

Furthermore, giving her such a massive range of utility will mean it all has to be watered down in terms of effectiveness when Karma players already complain that she is too much of a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none.

Finally, I like current Karma. Find your own champion and buzz off.

IxtaliKing1 votes

I can see you put a lot of effort into this, it's very complex. I do agree that Karma needs some kind of rework to bring her back to her roots a bit, it's not right for riot to take a champion out the hands of the people who loved her 1st to give to some others. If she's does get a rework I think it would make a little more sense for riot to focus more on damage and utility, than cc. So far from what I can tell from reading numerous threads, Karma players are most easily united behind the idea of a new passive and moving her current passive to her ult. The shield bomb is bit controversial since many people want it back (mostly old Karma players), but a lot of people are attached to her current RE; especially after the massive buffs it received. Her W/RW is something which is complained about a lot since it's incredibly lackluster, which isn't good since this spell is the bridge that holds her kit together. Her fans are another contentious issue, since a lot of people want them to return, but many others feel there should be a new champion built around using fans.

There's no way to completely satisfy Karma's player base as a whole, but I don't feel that should be the goal either. Whatever is done with her, the ultimate consideration should be paid to the original/diehard fans of the champ. The transformation from what Karma was to what she is now, is almost like Mordekaiser being turned into a long ranged metal bender; sure some might like it, but is it fair for those who liked him before?

Warden Karma1 votes

If she's does get a rework I think it would make a little more sense for riot to focus more on damage and utility, than cc

Isnt CC part of Utility?

I Agree that a rework should be in the direction of her roots. However I think New Karma has brought some potential with her (after all she is an "old karma taken apart and glued differently together"). I doubt that there will be ever any Version of Karma which will satify her whole fanbase. This wouldnt have been the Problem if her first Rework wouldnt have gone "wrong".

Thanks for reading :)

IxtaliKing1 votes

Isnt CC part of Utility?

I prefer to separate the two for the sake of clarity when I'm trying to make a point, when I say utility I'm referring to things like: Shields, heals, speed boosts etc. I think cc is considered utility because it indirectly assists allies through peeling or picking off enemies.

However I think New Karma has brought some potential with her (after all she is an "old karma taken apart and glued differently together").

I agree I've always felt it wouldn't take much to make Karma truly Karma again, my issue has always been the direction taken in 5.10. The rework itself always had potential it was just unfinished, I'd like very much to see her complete and true to her theme.

I doubt that there will be ever any Version of Karma which will satify her whole fanbase.

Nope, but - old karma/diehard Karma fans > newer Karma players. One group has always liked Karma, the other only plays her now because she's stronger and more simple.

Warden Karma1 votes

Just curious.... How large would be a rework if it is up to you to decide? Would you keep her current Q (skillshot) or prefer the old one (conic)? 1 or 2 Mantras? How would you design a new Passive for her (if it all)?^^

IxtaliKing1 votes

If it were up to me:

Passive: New passive, move current passive to ult or remove entirely.

Q: Unchanged RQ: Unchanged, if we're gonna keep the twin dragon theme it would be nice to have some visuals here to show it though.

W: 1.5s root at all ranks. RW: Replace additional root with some kind of damage sharing mechanic and ability to chain multiple targets maybe. Or perhaps enable allies to heal from attacking the tethered ally, I believe this was tested on pbe at 1 point, not sure why it didn't make it.

E: Unchanged. RE: Shield bomb.

R: 2 charges or leave as is with the current passive added to it.

SilverSquid1 votes

Or perhaps enable allies to heal from attacking the tethered ally, I believe this was tested on pbe at 1 point, not sure why it didn't make it.

Rick is from the live balance team, so he can only adjust numbers, not visuals.

A spell that requires your team to focus a person - and then profits them - needs good visuals to support it. The miniscule difference between the W and RW animation might have been the nail in the coffin for this idea. As you know, Riot has become very strict about the visual clarity of spells. I mean, a simple crest over the target's head might've done it, but that's still a few days worth of work.

Another reason might've been that Karma is very little involved in the success of this spell, which doesn't feel good.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Fair enough, at this point though anything is better* than a scaling root on RW. If they can't do anything else they might as well put back the damage component.

SilverSquid1 votes

Or maybe they should finish her animations (shielding, sprinting, dance, RW) and do the damage redirection, to at least give her something unique :P

IxtaliKing1 votes

I'd be for that 100%, throw in her shield bomb and we'd have a Karma who is actually Karma :O

Warden Karma1 votes

Just wanted to share a quote from senior narrative writer George "Glorft" Krstic with you too^^ “Don’t wreck a champ by destroying the things that players really like. You can’t make Wolverine suddenly not have claws.”

(Also if you are interested in looking at some of my Ideas, I just posted a bunch of them a bit above in a discussion with SilverSquid ^^)

IxtaliKing1 votes

Nice quote, it's a shame they've already done that with Karma lol. I've seen your discussion too, btw.

Warden Karma1 votes

Your opinion of the wall of text above is appreciated too^^

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