Exponential stat growth is a needlessly complex solution (That doesn't even solve anything)

The5lacker··3 votes·1,878 views

Okay, lets be honest, show of hands: Who thinks that the new "Growth Statistic" plan was well thought out?

So either nobody, or I've got an audience of amputee's, got it.

Right, so for those of you who aren't aware, in 4.20 Riot implemented a change that changed the old per-level stat gain from levels into a needlessly complicated formula where a % of stats was gained each level, which...is confusing, to say the least. Their supposed goal with this change was to help smooth out the Level 2 power spike that can allow players who get to lane first to potentially immediately stomp an opponent with a forced early trade. Now, this is a legitimate problem that exists in the game, as the power jump from level 1 to 2 has always been very extreme, but there were two reasons for that.

  1. Players at level 2 have higher stats than players at level 1, generally around 15-20% higher based on a champion's base stats, masteries, and runes.

  2. Players at level 2 have quite literally twice as many skills as players at level 1.

So this change solves one of those problems...kinda. It makes the stat difference between 1-2 to be closer to say, 10%, or thereabouts. But that's barely a solution and doesn't even begin to justify such a counter-intuitive and complex change (Seriously, the only way for any new player to understand what the hell is going on is to delve into old patch notes, and that's just nonsense.) To top it off, it didn't solve the actual problem with level 2 engages; Level 2 players have access to far, FAR more of their kit than level 1 players. A level 1 champ, especially with the frequently interconnected basic abilities of today's champs, is pitiful. A level 2 champ generally has access to a champ's primary engagement combo, which on top of the stat gain, makes them far more threatening to a level 1 champ than, say, a level 14 is to a level 13.

But do you notice something? The primary problem with the level 2 engage hasn't been solved by this change. That's...kind of a failure when you think about it. Such a complex solution with such a problem, you'd hope it at least solve the problem. But no. Level 2 engages are still potentially very lethal, and reaching lane first is paramount to success (which makes life awkward if your jungler is anticipating a leash, as most junglers do in the new and improved jungle).

So...the problem of stat superiority is solved in a needlessly complex way, and the core problem remains. So what would be an actual solution to this dilemma?

How about we start people at level 3?

I know this concept boggles the mind, but think about how much this solves.

  1. At level 3, a level advantage isn't nearly as statistically relevant, and the stat advantage is down to 10-15%, as with the current system.

  2. At level 3, a champion has access to all of their basic abilities, which means champs can have deeper, more inter-active kits that are actually relevant at the start of their game.

  3. With their slightly higher base power, junglers won't require quite as much help getting started as before, which means less necessity for leashes and a more even playing field in lanes.

  4. Making everyone start out slightly higher up on the chain helps decrease match length, hopefully keeping 40 minute games from being the norm.

I mean, even just for the first two points alone, this solution is far, FAR superior to the senseless pile of calculus that's currently being used. And what's the risk? We lose out on cheesy level 2 engages? Wasn't that the entire point of the change in the first place? Maybe some champs who are particularly vulnerable at levels 1-2 lose those vulnerabilities? Seems reasonable to me.

Look, all I'm asking is that Riot consider it. Revert the "Growth Statistic" changes, and have everyone in SR start at level 3. Just for a few weeks. Just to see how it plays. I'm positive people will enjoy it far more than doing even more math every time they want to figure out how good a champion is.

34 Comments

Elphrihaim3 votes

I completely disagree with you but the words are just not coming

I agree that the problem of level 2 all ins is still very high, but the change to growth from +x*level affects the lv2 v lv3 and lv3 v lv4 a lot more than it did

I don't like the idea of starting out at level 3 at all because it cuts the growth time of champions by a lot, so the hypercarries have less time that they are weak and the lane bullies have less time that they are strong which causes a problem--

It reduces the highlights between champions, it squishes them into a tighter spectrum if that makes sense.

words =/= my thing right now, sorry. Hopefully you can figure that out :>

The5lacker1 votes

I can see your concern, but lane bullies aren't really at their strongest at 1-2. They're generally strongest 3-5.

Plus, Riot has been aiming to shorten game lengths quite a bit lately, which if those were actually successful would curb Hypercarries as well.

If the only reason for the existence of levels 1 and 2 is to delay Hypercarries, then there are a number of design issues I question.

PhearEternal1 votes

Well, starting at level 3 is one solution however why not still just be level 1.. so minus all the stat growth non-sense you'd have at level 3 and still just start with all your abilities. Then you'll still need to worry about managing your mana, health, etc. Sure, as Trist lets say, you could leap in there, Mash your Q and start auto'ing and get explosive shot on someone at level 1.. but now you've got no mana.. you're down your engage/disengage and in the middle of two other people bot lane... probs dead. I like what you're onto with this and it definitely seems like it'd solve a lot of issues with the level 2 spike and junglers getting raped lvl1 by the monsters.

The5lacker1 votes

That's basically the idea, but just as a test I'd like them to go back and just set it up like Dominion or Howling Abyss (or TT, if it does that, which I can never remember...) Just to see if such a concept would work. Then if it's determined to be an acceptable solution, they can go back and functionally re-balance all levels around the idea of there functionally being only 16 of them instead of 18.

PhearEternal1 votes

I suppose the difference between having your first 3 skill done for you and just 3 free levels is where the pts are placed. You could go 2Q, 1W or whatever instead of just 1/1/1. Gives some options and variations but little noobers might mess that up.. I dunnos.

The5lacker1 votes

Well I wouldn't object to the first 3 points being locked in to the champ's basic abilities, one at a time. Help keep things from going off the rails. But that does kinda screw over Udyr...

PhearEternal1 votes

Well, give him the 3 pts to place wherever he wants and only allow him to put 1 into a single ability. Doesn't seem too crazy. That way he doesn't have lvl2 anything and still get his 3 pts to do with basically as he pleases.

Diostukos1 votes

I suppose the difference between having your first 3 skill done for you and just 3 free levels is where the pts are placed. You could go 2Q, 1W or whatever instead of just 1/1/1. Gives some options and variations but little noobers might mess that up.. I dunnos.

I'd rather not have Fizz chunk me the moment I get to lane.

Bresn1 votes

Diana Nasus Warwick FIRST BLOOD

The5lacker1 votes

Because as we all know, the instant Diana, Nasus, or Warwick hit 3 they are unstoppable gods of death, guaranteed to obliterate everything in their path.

Ignoring of course the fact that Diana and WW are both reliant on their ults (which aren't granted at level 3) and Nasus is reliant on his Q, which doesn't gain stacks just from leveling.

PrinceArchie1 votes

I like the idea a lot, it gives a much more in depth feeling to the player because they can mess around with skills and decide what path is best for them depending on playstyle

The5lacker1 votes

Well the really nice thing is that it lets Riot get away with their "Having basic abilities that are useless by themselves" policy.

I mean, Azir literally has no choice already. I'm really surprised they didn't do this kind of change when they released him.

Blynx1 votes

But does this really solve anything? Some champions depend on hitting level 2 first just to survive

The5lacker1 votes

...And how does this NOT solve that problem?

Blynx2 votes

...And how does this NOT solve that problem?

I think you're misunderstanding. In some match ups you are simply out matched. Getting that early level 2 allows you to farm when you otherwise wouldn't and have pressure when you wouldn't. But if you start at level 3 you basically start off fucked.

The5lacker1 votes

You can still hit level 4 before them. And Riot's change STILL SCREWS THAT PARTICULAR EDGE CASE OVER, so I'm not exactly seeing where any sort of rational complaint is in that statement.

TheRatsInTheWall1 votes

This change would require a lot of re-balancing. It would be a massive change to the game that would have to come out all at once. Some champions are far more reliant on items and farming than others, and starting them all at lv3 would throw that off (unless you just gave them higher starting gold). It would also effectively remove the early game strategy of picking a team that can fight lv1 and invade. The lv2 power spike doesn't strike me as such an issue that it warrants such a drastic change to the game.

The5lacker1 votes

Welcome to the entire core concept of the Preseason.

And I listed more than one reason for the change. Plus, are you really saying that ARBITRARY EXPONENTIAL STAT PROGRESSION isn't a drastic change?

TheRatsInTheWall1 votes

No, what I'm saying is that your change isn't worth what you plan to fix with it. You are asking for is far more of a drastic change than the choices Riot made, and Riot is not particularly good at drastic changes. I was not thrilled by the growth stat, but it still functions in the game as it exists now. It may need some tweaking here and there, but there weren't any suddenly broken champions because of it. Think of how much disruption the jungle changes made, and that only directly affected a fifth of the player base (gross approximation). Your changes would require months of internal testing, and major balance changes. Then, odds are, it would still come out wildly skewed. Now, if they're willing to throw all their resources into this change and put it out in the next preseason, it might work out. I personally like the first three levels of development, but maybe it would be a better game for the effort because of the reasons you list. Do you honestly think that the first few minutes of the game are such a problem that it would be worth putting in this much work rather than more predicable changes to other aspects of the game?

The5lacker1 votes

Oh man, Dominion is so insane, such a different game, 110% cannot even comprehend.

7ha7guy7771 votes

So basically ARAM on SR with the option to choose your champions and an actual laning phase instead of 24/7 teamfights and tower siege?

The5lacker1 votes

Kinda. No increase in starting gold, though. And the ability to go in more than one direction. And Recall.

So really, more like...Dominion.

youngjake931 votes

Meh... You should get an advantage for lvl 2 though. The problem before was that the massive stat increase made it so you could be horrible at level 2s and still crush lane if you got it first. Less stat advantage at least makes it so they have to use SOME skill and not raw stats.

The5lacker1 votes

I don't recall saying I removed all of the benefits of leveling up.

Getting level 4 still offers an advantage over being at level 3.

Elphrihaim1 votes

{quoted} I can see your concern, but lane bullies aren't really at their strongest at 1-2. They're generally strongest 3-5.

Exactly. The difference between 2 and 3 is lessened, as is the difference between 3 and 4. Small XP leads now only have meaning with regard to the ability levels instead of also offering a chunk of stats.

Plus, Riot has been aiming to shorten game lengths quite a bit lately, which if those were actually successful would curb Hypercarries as well.

And also remove the weakness that weak-early champions have.

If the only reason for the existence of levels 1 and 2 is to delay Hypercarries, then there are a number of design issues I question.

It isn't, but why would we start at level 3? That doesn't make much sense.

The5lacker1 votes

The entire goal of this change AND RIOT'S OWN CHANGE IS TO LIMIT THE POWER OF LANE BULLIES. Are you honestly bitching about how my solution does that job better than Riot's current solution? Really?

The stat advantage would still exist, in as much as it currently exists.

Everyone starts at level 1, max level is 16, there. Happy? Not confusing you now? Not too difficult to wrap your head around?

Elphrihaim2 votes

{quoted} The entire goal of this change AND RIOT'S OWN CHANGE IS TO LIMIT THE POWER OF LANE BULLIES. Are you honestly bitching about how my solution does that job better than Riot's current solution? Really?

Except that's NOT THE CASE. It's not about limiting the power of lane bullies, it is about reducing the power that comes from a level so that not everybody is a lane bully.

The point of the change is to LIMIT the disadvantage in lane caused from doing a good leash v no leash and your minions getting good surrounds and killing the first one before you get in range (which happens entirely randomly).

It also limits the advantage offered from stealing a single small monster from the jungle (I've seen it done too often).

Everyone starts at level 1, max level is 16, there. Happy? Not confusing you now? Not too difficult to wrap your head around?

sigh You completely missed the point.

Plus that's still confusing

Why do we start with 3 skill points at level 1, but then gain 1 per level? This isn't a traditional RPG, our base talents are determined by our stats.

Why are ults leveled at levels 4, 9, and 14? That seems odd. The current 6/11/16 makes sense-- +5 levels.

As Pryota wrote, this change can easily remove the best points of playing certain champions, while removing the weak points of others-- it would basically mandate heavy adjustments to every lane bully to compensate for the fact that the time during which they are effective has been drastically reduced.

The5lacker1 votes

Because the only thing that makes Lane bullies relevant is levels. Not items. Who ever heard of items? Building items is for chumps. It's not like they do anything at all. Nope. No influence over anything.

You're right, it would be confusing. I mean, if I gain 80 health per level, why don't I start at 80 heath? SO CONFUSING! I start at level 1 but my health isn't JUST the health I gain from being at level 1! It's almost like some sort of...base stat or something. Man. How odd and strange and completely unprecedented.

Elphrihaim2 votes

{quoted} Because the only thing that makes Lane bullies relevant is levels. Not items. Who ever heard of items? Building items is for chumps. It's not like they do anything at all. Nope. No influence over anything.

No. Part of what makes lane bullies relevant is the fact that their kit has power without the rest of their kit being available, thus they are able to bully somebody else who does not have this property away from the wave, and that push denies them creeps.

You're right, it would be confusing. I mean, if I gain 80 health per level, why don't I start at 80 heath? SO CONFUSING! I start at level 1 but my health isn't JUST the health I gain from being at level 1! It's almost like some sort of...base stat or something. Man. How odd and strange and completely unprecedented.

You... do realize that I'm talking about the fact that we start at level 1 with 3 points and get 1 per level thereafter for skills, right? And that that doesn't make sense (see any MMO or even Tabletop RPG, you start with stats not skills!)

I mean I even said as much blatantly-- "our base talents are determined by our stats."

Ark Angel HFB1 votes

Don't waste your time with him... he is clueless in most of his post...

The bronze got in his blood and went to his brain it seems.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Starting the game at level 3 is a gigantic change.

In particular, it completely breaks everything they're trying to do about early game jungler influence.

Pryotra1 votes

I honestly feel that is kinda the point.

Levels 1-3 are where certain champs excell, when there just isn't much of anything to go around. To take that away is to flatten the game significantly, and honestly allows some champs to start in their power spike, while minimizing or eliminating other's power moments.

MrSlowDie1 votes

With their slightly higher base power, junglers won't require quite as much help getting started as before, which means less necessity for leashes and a more even playing field in lanes.

Shaco item 3070 shaco's strength is the enemy weakness -shaclone

FantasySniper1 votes

Ok, why start off like that? There's no good reason to state yourself as correct before you even present your argument.

I think it helped to lessen the issue. It was definitely a step in the right direction, and it's another accessible lever of balance at their disposal.

Although level 2 engages are still potentially lethal (less so with extra-early ganks out of the picture), you see few champions capable of outright pushing the enemy out of lane at Lv 2, let alone should they want to force this engagement in the first place since the enemy can still achieve Lv 2 and/or they still have a strong enough Lv 1 to fight back. I'm just saying the "problem" behind Lv 2 power spike isn't really as bad as you are making it out to be.

Starting at Lv 3 solves a lot of problems, we see this in ARAM for the sake of shorter and more interactive games, but is that what people really want? How you play out your first 3 levels has a fairly strong influence on the laning phase, and removing that can present a lot of issues. Champions at that level can legitimately engage on sight and it doesn't really feel good to be able die within seconds of entering the lane. All-in champions would be a huge threat while most poke champs miss out on opportunities to ebb away at enemy health. (They also miss out on farm and pots become less impactful, but these issues are easy to fix with more starting gold and better pots.) The differences between champions and players become pronounced by the laning phase as time goes on. Giving everyone "the same resources" promotes uniformity and prevents the superiority of certain elements from being apparent.

As for learning the numbers, that's a weak argument. This game has an incredible learning curve already, and numbers that can be represented by a wikia page with ease don't even come close to the optimization of rune pages, masteries, and gold production/spending. (Can't forget about knowledge of champions kits and map characteristics) Base + Growth Coefficient•[1 + 0.01•(Lv•3.5 - 7) + 72)] is actually fairly simple given that the real calculus is in Galio's Bulwark.

It's definitely worth a try, but I doubt how much it'll actually accomplish once all is said and done. The current system poses no problems and it's just a matter of solving the things surrounding it (>.> jungle, towers, etc) (I am so sorry about how long this response became)

More from Gameplay

More by The5lacker