Can we please revert the Lissandra w nerf?

misfortunas·Jul 26, 2015·89 votes·3,825 views

I have posted this on Mr. Reddit and I want to post this here too to gather Riots attention and discuss it with the players. Lissandra is in a pretty weak state. Her W was originally nerfed a year ago because of DFG. DFG r-w-q was broken and uncounterable. The nerfs and compensation buffs were completely understandable. However, her Q was nerfed some months ago and DFG is gone now. Since those nerfs she feels weak. Could we revert the w ratio to 0.6 from 0.4 please?

41 Comments

QuirkiliciousJul 26, 20154 votes

This sounds reasonable, I don't think enough people play Liss anymore to get this heard though.

However, to me Liss has never been about dmg anyway. At the end of the day she's a utility AP that's more team reliant than anything. Her laning phase and 1v1 against other AP casters is weak because she has non-skill-shot CC's to lock shit down in team fights.

Monsta MooJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This sounds reasonable, I don't think enough people play Liss anymore to get this heard though.

However, to me Liss has never been about dmg anyway. At the end of the day she's a utility AP that's more team reliant than anything. Her laning phase and 1v1 against other AP casters is weak because she has non-skill-shot CC's to lock shit down in team fights.

Maybe, Riot peeps skim through a lot of threads. I'm sure it will at least be seen as it is pretty reasonable.

IIRozenIIJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This sounds reasonable, I don't think enough people play Liss anymore to get this heard though.

However, to me Liss has never been about dmg anyway. At the end of the day she's a utility AP that's more team reliant than anything. Her laning phase and 1v1 against other AP casters is weak because she has non-skill-shot CC's to lock shit down in team fights.

That's how she's best played now cause of the nerfs.

Hasztalan2Jul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This sounds reasonable, I don't think enough people play Liss anymore to get this heard though.

However, to me Liss has never been about dmg anyway. At the end of the day she's a utility AP that's more team reliant than anything. Her laning phase and 1v1 against other AP casters is weak because she has non-skill-shot CC's to lock shit down in team fights.

The problem with this that THIS concept doesn't exist anymore in 2015. In 2015 where champs like Azir running around wild having more dmg and cc combined what 4 other champions could dream of this is simply bs. She neeeds damage. Nobody will play her only for her "utility". And to top it of her "utility" is also average. 1 short aoe root which needs to place the squishy mage into the enemy zone, a single target stun on 2 minutes cooldown and a soft cc on her Q. Wow, any other sololaner brings just as much on the table nowadays WITH damage or MORE utility.

Joe DreddJul 27, 20154 votes

liss is fine

TwëekJul 27, 20154 votes

Upvote for you. I would love to see Lissandra be viable again.

BeatzBoyFTWJul 27, 20153 votes

I don't think I wanted her buffed to be an oppressive ~~mid~~ top laner again....

TreebornfroggerJul 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I don't think I wanted her buffed to be an oppressive ~~mid~~ top laner again....

as long as league of tanks exists she can't do jack

IcyPepperJul 27, 20152 votes

unless they take cinderhulk top lane, tanks act just like they did before.

and void staff and liandries exist with sorc boots

AbyssphereJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

unless they take cinderhulk top lane, tanks act just like they did before.

and void staff and liandries exist with sorc boots

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that Lissandra is strongest in assassin metas/ones where it's very easy to pick out a high priority squishy and lock them down. But teams can have up to three tanks now, which typically limits the number of targets she has to 2 (ADC + Mid) and with assassins out of favour, she can't rely on people like Zed and Akali serving themselves to her on a silver platter anymore.

It's not that tanks are too tough for her to deal with, it's that they're too prevalent for her to deal with. Lissandra needs a squishy-dominated meta to function.

IcyPepperJul 27, 20151 votes

I suppose that makes sense.

I guess she serves better mid right now then, to lock down the adc?

Only Play DariusJul 27, 20153 votes

The Q nerfs were because people were abusing a midlane mage as a toplaner since she could outrange everyone else top and her root+blink made it impossible to engage on her once you got sick of the nonstop harass.

Stop taking champs to lanes they aren't supposed to be in and exploiting parts of their kit that are toxic outside of their intended lane, and Riot won't have to nerf your favorite champs. Can't wait for Rengar to get the same treatment.

63536895_DELJul 27, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IG4gF8e0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-07-27T02:23:46.813+0000)

The Q nerfs were because people were abusing a midlane mage as a toplaner since she could outrange everyone else top and her root+blink made it impossible to engage on her.

Stop taking champs to lanes they aren't supposed to be in and exploiting parts of their kit that are toxic outside of their intended lane, and Riot won't have to nerf your favorite champs. Can't wait for to get the same treatment.

Meanwhile MonkeyKing mid and Alistar top are near uncounterable XD. I'll never forget my first time seeing an Alistar rek a Riven top or another time when I saw an Alistar rek a Renekton top. As a main I know taking him mid has almost no counters, at least in bronze and silver.

Revlak JavikJul 27, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Death LoL,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IG4gF8e0,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-07-27T02:40:16.697+0000)

Meanwhile mid and top are near uncounterable XD. I'll never forget my first time seeing an rek a top or another time when I saw an rek a top. As a main I know taking him mid has almost no counters, at least in bronze and silver.

Most non-meta toplaners gut Riven. Taric , for example.

Only Play DariusJul 27, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Death LoL,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IG4gF8e0,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-07-27T02:40:16.697+0000)

Meanwhile mid and top are near uncounterable XD. I'll never forget my first time seeing an rek a top or another time when I saw an rek a top. As a main I know taking him mid has almost no counters, at least in bronze and silver.

Alistar has zero waveclear so you just push the wave and roam around while he takes forever to kill the minions. He is also extremely mana hungry and even with his combo it is unlikely that he will ever kill you. I can see how he counters all-in snowball champs like Riven Fiora but even then he isn't outright winning lane unless his opponent is an idiot.

MonkeyKing is a strong top but we have Darius to keep him under control if he gets too popular.

LlaniteJul 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IG4gF8e0,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2015-07-27T02:58:58.101+0000)

has zero waveclear so you just push the wave and roam around while he takes forever to kill the minions. He is also extremely mana hungry and even with his combo it is unlikely that he will ever kill you. I can see how he counters all-in snowball champs like but even then he isn't outright winning lane unless his opponent is an idiot.

is a strong top but we have to keep him under control if he gets too popular.

His Q and passive are aoe and just by spamming 20 mana E, his passive will wreck the shit out of every non-tanky melee.

ElJanitorFrankJul 27, 20156 votes

"wreck the shit out of every non-tanky melee."

His passive at level 18 does 72 damage total. Factoring a squishy character's magic resist who built no magic resist items, they'd have around 25% reduction. Which is a total of 54 magic damage.

54 magic damage is "wreck the shit out of" level now.

Also note that it goes down by 1 at every level. So at level 11, you're only doing 38.25 magic damage TOTAL (after reduction).

And at level 6 it's a measly 27 damage (again after reduction). After all 3 ticks have gone off.

LlaniteJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"wreck the shit out of every non-tanky melee."

His passive at level 18 does 72 damage total. Factoring a squishy character's magic resist who built no magic resist items, they'd have around 25% reduction. Which is a total of 54 magic damage.

54 magic damage is "wreck the shit out of" level now.

Also note that it goes down by 1 at every level. So at level 11, you're only doing 38.25 magic damage TOTAL (after reduction).

And at level 6 it's a measly 27 damage (again after reduction). After all 3 ticks have gone off.

His passive is 13 dmg @lvl3, if he starts at 30AP, post-mitigation it becomes 10 dmg per sec for 3s = 30 dmg totally, all he has to do is walking alone side with you, no minion aggro taken. Most champ has roundly 700 HP @lvl3, 30 dmg = 4% HP EVERYTIME you want a CS, do it 10 times and you're in range for a WQ+ignite combo and either has to b or starve. He can also occasionally send a random punch or Q to shorten the process. If you dare hit him back, and take minion aggro, he would Q then W you into his turret side and minions will happily have an extra piece of your Hp as you crawl your way back.

Sassmast3rJul 27, 20151 votes

I have literally never agreed with a post in my entire life more than this one. You as a community made the choice to exploit a champions kit outside of it's primary purpose, now deal with it being nerfed into oblivion <3. You sir, are my new best friend haha.

AbyssphereJul 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I have literally never agreed with a post in my entire life more than this one. You as a community made the choice to exploit a champions kit outside of it's primary purpose, now deal with it being nerfed into oblivion <3. You sir, are my new best friend haha.

Riot designed her to be functional both mid and top. There was no unintended exploitation of her kit at all.

DrNovaJul 27, 20153 votes

There is no real intended lane for the most part. Some champs have kits that are heavily based on support, but telling a champ not to take a lane is enforcing a specific meta, which riot says they avoid doing, and just bad for the game anyways.

You just dont like it when someone plays something that counters what you like to do, as opposed to trying to counter them in return.

I ahri top all the time, and I wont be stopping any time soon.

Only Play DariusJul 27, 20151 votes

Ahri top is alright with me. You are mana hungry and if you get jumped on you have to burn your ult to get away. Clear weaknesses.

Lissandra top was just harass with autoattacks and Q all day and stay in lane forever because of your passive. If someone jumped on you they got locked down by an undodgeable root while you blinked 600 units away. It was nightmarish for any traditional melee top to deal with.

DrNovaJul 27, 20151 votes

So? Play someone else against liss. Shake things up and bring a "traditional" mid to lane to fight her. Or a rumble, or swain or vlad. Cho does pretty well against her.

Instead of complaining about it, try something different. There are options. And if you get counter picked" by her, well, oh well. Such is the risk of picking a lane before enemy.

And l HelpedAug 18, 20151 votes

It's not a flash, it's pretty delayed, too. A Garen silence would have you locked down for days, or any clear CC would have you either dead or having to back instantly.

VekknaJul 27, 20155 votes

Except sometimes this happens and Riot just goes "welp, guess you guys are right!" and then nerfs the champ's intended role to balance their off-meta lanes that turned meta.

Like: Annie Morgana Zyra

DrNovaJul 27, 20151 votes

Annie is far from nerfed. The other two were bringing vast power of a mid laner to a support role which is not supposed to be as overwhelmingly powerful. Not saying the changes were right or not, but I understand their reasoning.

VekknaJul 28, 20151 votes

Right, and you're missing my point. Players took these mid-laners to bot lane, and they were nerfed in such a way that they became less suited for mid lane. As a result, they became support champs only after the players took them there.

But with top lane, you run Cassiopeia Lissandra and you're getting the nerf bat.

DrNovaJul 28, 20151 votes

I'd argue that Morg and Annie are still great mids. They lack qualities that pro level play wants from mids, but they are still completely viable there.

And you can take any mid to top lane in theory, and willgive top laners issues, especially ones without gapclosers. Like Daius, he would suffer greatly. But alot of top lanes have gapclosers, and a squishy mid taken top will usually get wrecked if caught.

Some like Liss have tools to deal with this, a great deal dont.

But as a guy below stated, there is a reason Liss is taken top , and its mostly because of her range, like Ryze. You can take anyone anywhere in theory, there is no rule or reason not to. If you pick well against a "mid" going top, you can still do well, even against Liss. Or you can let them push and call for ganks. A Lissandra pushed to your tower, even with her tools, is still likely going to die against a good gank if she is way pushed.

VekknaJul 29, 20151 votes

That's all fine, and I don't disagree.

The point is that Riot supports taking champs off role to support but does not support taking champs off role to top lane.

The only exception to this seems to be Heimerdinger who is allowed to be objectively better than any other summoner and sit on the highest WR in game without getting any attention.

AltricadJul 27, 20152 votes

Lissandra is played top because it's very difficult for her to mid aganist long range mages Azir Xerath Viktor Ziggs

You're basically saying that Ryze should go mid when even riot has acknowledged him to be a top-laner and mid is near impossible due to his low range.

And pls, Liss top is very very squishy for the first few levels of the game due to her weak ratios, she also has no sustain.

Hell, Chogath top is 10x more oppressive to melee and I sh*t on even Renekton s in lane.

UmbernoxJul 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IG4gF8e0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-07-27T02:23:46.813+0000)

The Q nerfs were because people were abusing a midlane mage as a toplaner since she could outrange everyone else top and her root+blink made it impossible to engage on her once you got sick of the nonstop harass.

Stop taking champs to lanes they aren't supposed to be in and exploiting parts of their kit that are toxic outside of their intended lane, and Riot won't have to nerf your favorite champs. Can't wait for to get the same treatment.

Hey Buddy, champs can be taken wherever the player wants to take them. Champs don't have to be torn down to 1 or 2 lanes. I'm so done with the "meta". If someone wants to take someone somewhere else then cool, and I give props to them, because they have the guts to actually try something that might not work, and in the end, could find a very strong lane, because the other lane opponents are still sticking to the meta.

For example, I played vayne top, and guess what, it was op, and it was fun. Katarina top, Irelia mid Yorick jg, Blitzcrank jg. How many more must I name.

Also, this game is supposed to be for fun, I hate how competitive its gotten, because all it causes are ragers and then it isn't fun anymore, so if someone wants to try something new, and fun for them, then don't knock them down for having fun.

Only Play DariusJul 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Also, this game is supposed to be for fun,

You know what isn't fun? Someone who can harass you continuously in lane and is impossible to engage on 1v1. Lissandra

You know what else isn't fun? Someone who just sits in the bush the entire time and you have no idea when or if he is going to leap on you, which is kinda important seeing as he can 100-0 you at level 3, while also having no resource gating him. Rengar

Sorry but you having fun by taking a champ somewhere other than the lane they were designed for can end up being absolutely toxic for your opponent. Try to make life easy on the balance team.

DrNovaJul 27, 20151 votes

I could name plenty of matchups of MELEE vs MELEE equally unfun just because one champ counters the other hard. Thats just the way it is. Stop already....

And l HelpedAug 18, 20151 votes

What also isn't fun is losing because you got a Blitzcrank jungle v.s. an Elise jungle, or any other strong jungler. What isn't fun is someone trying Blitz Mid and you having to constantly babysit him while other lanes have their problems. That isn't fun. Toxicity is ruining the game for others, and feeding/ruining a 40min game is toxic. Can't learn or improve in a game when a fed Diana 100-0s you.

SouL1essJul 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IG4gF8e0,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-07-27T02:23:46.813+0000)

The Q nerfs were because people were abusing a midlane mage as a toplaner since she could outrange everyone else top and her root+blink made it impossible to engage on her once you got sick of the nonstop harass.

Stop taking champs to lanes they aren't supposed to be in and exploiting parts of their kit that are toxic outside of their intended lane, and Riot won't have to nerf your favorite champs. Can't wait for to get the same treatment.

If only Lissandra is viable mid lane against actual mages. lol

And see bolded part - it's not our fault that Riot can't balance the game, and that they didn't consider interaction between individual champions and only considered interaction between champions in the same expected lane.

VoidacJul 26, 20152 votes

This. Please.

The LovelessJul 27, 20152 votes

They said they were working on a new passive that would likely incorporate something defensive. I'd like that. Her damage is fine IMO and I don't think her w is what you should add damage to (q or e maybe, but w is too easy to land).

kneel on IceJul 27, 20152 votes

Yes riot please so unfair Lissandra needs a buff

Arch Mage MagnusJul 27, 20152 votes

Agreed. She just doesn't do the damage in comparison to her squishyness. She either has to all in someone with her ult, or save her ass with it. I feel she also can't kill anyone unless using her ult on them to ensure the kill.

In a team fight she has her merits, but still has the same disadvantages. You can ult a target to make sure they get killed, but Lissandra is basically dead right after. She needs some better ratios to become a decent pick again. It's unfortunate because I think she is a brilliant character in design and ability wise, but Riot just forgot about her.

Baby GhoulJul 27, 20151 votes

I really hope Riot sees this thread and thinks it over. I would like this to happen to.

VekknaJul 27, 20151 votes

Annie is the only champ allowed to have passive zone control with unavoidable cc that does big damage.