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@Meddler. About the current state of Elise and Evelynn.

misfortunas·4/29/2015, 6:25:17 PM·30 votes·1,754 views

One of the two jungle queens, as we all know, has been making a small comeback. Eve. Players who invest their time into mastering her complexity (stealth, q range, kiting, flanking) do get rewarded. I think her kit is in a good spot. Her Q is good, her E is good after the on-hit effects buff. But her ult and her w are... 'meh'.. Let's start with her ult.

I agree with your thinking here, Eve should never be able to kill people with her ult. That would be stupid, she is meant to pop that ult and get into the chaos. However,** I do think that her scaling on her ult needs a buff. 1% per 100 AP is very underwhelming. Her Q base damage nerfs and ratio tweaks encouraged people to play her as an assasin again, but while her Q and E do reward people for building damage items, her ult does not.** No matter how fed I become, how much AP I have, her ult does underwhelming damage, for the cooldown it has. And why not give her utility some scaling? Maybe give her shield an AD/AP ratio but reduce its base shield. Or give her slow a ratio. There is so much you can change this underwhelming ult into. But right now it only has two purposes: giving Eve her survivability in team-fights and having a ganking tool. Something like 1% per 50 AP would do the trick. Or give her shield a 0.2 ratio and reduce its base shield by 50..

Now onto her W. Her W is in a weird place. As other Eve players, I would be very happy if her W would have its stacking movespeed buff again. Right now her W is a mediocore gap-closer that has one hell of a cooldown. Her cd reduction passive applied to her W promotes an assasiny play patter but it is not that great considering the fact that you should have killed your target in seconds, refreshing your w, making the passive useless. Not only that, it is really hard for Eve to stick to targets, since her Q missile speed is very clunky. With the old W passive, you could catch up to them and kill them. It's also a nerf to her bruiser playstyle.

Other than that, Eve is pretty decent right now. I feel like with some of these changes, she would be completely viable again.

Now onto Elise (oh my, here we go). This champion is a huge mess right now. I do realize that with some special cinderhulk build, she can become decent again, but Elise is horrible right now. The fact that she is a rare pick in this tank meta says everything. She can only be played two ways: full tank with no damage and unreliable cc, or damage-ish and having no defensive stats and therefore getting blown up instantly. I believe that her kit needs no major tweaks, but solid buffs.

Starting with her Q. Her Q has a huge mana cost. 100 mana at max rank is tough. Not only that, the base damage got continuously gutted, human form and spider form. To be honest, that was kind of understandable. All she had to do was build a haunting guise and sorc boots and she would outdamage a full build mage. Nerfing her Q base damage was ok, but not giving her some scaling buffs is were you went wrong in my opinion. Right now, if she wants to be a damage-threat, she has to build a buttload of AP to deal solid damage with her Q, leaving no space for defensive items, therefore making her very squishy. And does she have long range? No. Does she have solid, reliable mobility? No. Does she have something defensive in her abilities? No. She gets blown up before she can 'assasinate someone'. Buffing her scalings on her Q would be a great start, she would be rewarded building AP. If she'd get high amounts of AP she would be fragile but would deal high damage to tanks and carries, thats what she was known for. And if she'd build pure tank with that build, she would be 'punished' by dealing low damage.

Her spider form w is in a good place in my opinion. But her human form W is not that great. The spider is very unreliable and doesn't move as fast as it should. It also has a long cooldown. Its damage is alright in my opinion. Here Elise gets rewarded building AP, other than in her Q.

Elises spiderlings and her 'ult' (bonus damage on autoattacks) are in a good place. She can deal solid dps with her w on and some spiders out. The heal is good.

Her E is in a bad spot. While its cost and cooldown are in a good spot, her rappel is awful... It is super clunky, very unreliable, has a long cooldown (even after the buff), and its range is sooooo underwhelming. Ganking with her rappel is close to impossible. A range/reliability buff would be appreciated greatly.

Please note that these are just suggestions for buffs and my personal opinion on those champions.

TL;DR: Both need scaling buffs, Eve on her R, Elise on her Q (very badly)

If you read this wall of text lol, thankyou!!!!

30 Comments

Rebonack4/29/2015, 9:49:42 PM3 votes

I still think Riot should totally remake Eve's ult so it can be something that isn't mind-numbingly underwhelming.

I'm personally fond of the idea of something more akin to her old Malice and Spite. Eve shields herself and gets a slowing/damaging OnHit effect. Kills and assists refresh the Ult's cooldown. Much closer to her old Ult and solves the burst out of stealth problem.

Tentacle Love4/30/2015, 3:42:27 PM2 votes

I think Evelynn's problem is that she hasn't really evolved as a character past her initial iteration, and you can see it in her base splash... which has changed, what, once? way back in the ancient times?

She's probably the best example of a character that needs a complete overhaul from the ground up, but they have no idea what to do with her and they're terrified of making her worse because of the "horrors" of the old Evelynn (which, I'll be honest, probably wouldn't be as scary in this day and age of 124 champs, some of which are allowed to be even scarier right now).

Elise is just strange. It's like she was built to be the perfect character in a different game and none of her abilities have the base stats or the scaling stats to work at all.

I can't even tell what she was supposed to be, or what role she's supposed to play, or what lane she's supposed to be in. She's just bad at everything.

Earthpine4/29/2015, 10:21:06 PM1 votes

Well I don't have much to say about Eve since I don't play her, but I do have a bit to say for Elise (I do play her).

I agree with her Q needing a buff. I can't understand why it costs so much mana for so little damage. I normally do a combo of Q (human form), W,E,R,W,Q (against a champion with full HP). The outcome is either 0 damage, or (if I build enough MP and the champion is squishy) kill them. I play Elise mid nowadays, I can't play her in the jungle since I believe she is a mage assassin, not a tank. And the Magus enchant doesn't do a lot (but that's a different discussion) to help Elise with being the mage assassin.

Elise's W (human form) is terrible. I have pointed the W in a straight line and it would go around a corner to nothing. And it's so slow people can walk away with tier 1/2 boots. And even if they get hit it wouldn't even hurt them, it's more of a tickle in the foot then an exploding spider in their face. But I do agree her spider form W is fine.

Elise's E (human form) is good, I have grown used to it, but I wouldn't mind a slight width increase. But her spider form E. Is. TERRIBLE. You have no idea how many times I have used E in spider form to chase just for me to hang there awkwardly while the enemy laughs outside my range and escape. You can't get down unless there is an enemy. It would be better if it could target ALLIES as well, so if a team is chasing and (say) Lee Sin hops in front of me and I E to get down onto him, rather then be there still unable to do anything. Another thing (but I think would be OP) which may improve it is making it make you invulnerable to all damage. But that's probably OP, so unlikely.

And finally but not least is Elise's R. I think it's alright right now, but maybe a little armor boost in spider form, because you would expect a spider to be more difficult to kill then a half-naked woman. I like the difference in MS, makes it more interesting to chase people down.

These are my thoughts on Elise right now. Nothing about Eve I'm afraid, last time I played her was last year on free week.

Salidfingers4/29/2015, 10:24:47 PM1 votes

I like playing eve jungle if i have to jungle.

Then again i go non tank eve and actually carry my games.

Epilogue of Life4/30/2015, 4:35:38 AM1 votes

Upvote cuz i wanna use my S3 skin....

Varnoc4/30/2015, 9:44:01 AM1 votes

I agree completely on your analysis of Elise, her Q damage needs to feel rewarding for building AP and her Rappel is... special. I've put a community feedback based Elise rework up here, and would love your feedback on the subject.

(Human E's issue can be solved by tweaking a few numbers in my opinion, namely the movement speed of the spiderling scaling with Elise's MS, so I didn't mention it above)

Knight SoIaire 4/30/2015, 3:53:55 PM1 votes

elise is coming back from the dead imo

Venowolf4/30/2015, 7:26:12 PM1 votes

Elise need that Riot "empowered" the Magus Enhanced.

Skia Asteri4/30/2015, 7:30:29 PM1 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Evelynn/Jungle

Eve is fine, and can wait until the Mandrake Wards are released to live if they are going to be released.

Darkwind4/30/2015, 11:05:36 PM1 votes

I have an entirely different view from you on how Elise should work. First, I disagree with you on Rappel. It is actually incredibly strong for so very many different purposes, which is why its range and reliability were nerfed in the first place. The ease of use has been buffed multiple times already.

The main difference in our views, however, is in how an Elise should function in a team in order to be healthy. I believe Elise should be a unique, strategic choice, chosen for her strong countergank, skirmish, and tower pushing capabilities. The idea here is to pair her with winning lanes (especially top and bot), and have her mirror the opposing junglers' movements on the map. Show up in lane when the wave shoves to the enemy top and auto it a few times; throw in the Krug buff if possible for some bonus damage. If the enemy jungler every shows up, your (theoretical) skirmish strength should give you the ability to out perform them in the 2v2 or 3v3. You then transition, with the exception of Sorc shoes, to a tanky/utility jungler. A build might look like: item 3717 item 3001 item 3020 item 2045 item 3110 item 3083 or item 3717 item 3190 item 3020item 2045 item 3110 item 3083 There are three problems with this build atm, though. One, no tenacity. Sorcs would be required to take advantage of (theoretically) high base damages, but there are no good sources of tenacity available with its removal from Cinderhulk. Second, neither makes fantastic use of Cinderhulk's bonus health. The first build is especially guilty of barely having enough HP to make it worth. The third problem is that, regardless of which is chosen, none of these are particularly strong late game. Lack of item 3143/ item 3047 makes you significantly less tanky in the late game compared to tank junglers, without dealing significantly more damage.

Therefore, instead of emphasizing her scalings at the expense of base damages, I'd prefer to emphasize her base percentage damage at the expense of scaling. My solution to this would look something like 7/8/9/10/11% current/missing hp+(1%/100ap) instead of 8%+(3%/100 ap), base damages and caps being the same. This would prevent a lane Elise from abusing high bases to build more damage and scale up/snowball, while allowing Elise in the jungle to perform better in small fights than on live.

Aelvr5/1/2015, 4:43:21 AM1 votes

It would be nice for AP Elise if Venomous Bite was reworked to include a slow, to make Skittering Frenzy better in chases (because right now Elise's chase is terribad), as well as improve her ganking utility. I almost always built summoner 11 +summoner 3 +item 3116 when playing AP nuker-assassin in season three, specifically to deal with this problem. Also, Volatile Spiderling should be made more responsive & reliable, as OP said.

DrNova5/1/2015, 5:39:18 AM1 votes

Elise should get the Zed escape, let her Rappel anywhere in the range. Would completely make up for her lack of tankyness/damage by giveing her a reliable escape if a gank goes bad (and it often does) Maybe reduce the range some since you would have no idea where she was coming down, to make it a bit more fair. But I think this would help her drastically. Still think she could use some damage buffs however

Rico Nasty4/29/2015, 8:43:03 PM1 votes

upvoted for truth. i have a little something to add, i think they should tweak evelynn so that she's a viable laner. her passive would be good for roaming, and they should give her more damage. as for elise, she is pretty hopeless rn, and riot doesn't seem to be doing much about it. she'd be good if she wasn't so damn squishy and had lower mana costs.

Raxistaicho5/6/2015, 3:25:30 PM1 votes

Upvoted for truth.

Honestly I just want her to be viable again :/ I really like her as a character.

Abyssphere4/29/2015, 9:12:35 PM1 votes

My personal thought on Elise isn't that her damage is bad but that she is too squishy to use it. You said it yourself that when she builds damage she gets blown up, and making her deal more damage doesn't really help that. It means she can overkill people better but she'll still get blown up instantly after. So, my idea for a buff would be increasing the AP ratio on Skittering Frenzy's heal so that she can stay in the thick of a fight for longer. Her on-hit AA damage in spider form is cool but she can't use it because she gets killed instantly, so once the game gets to the grouping stage her Skittering Frenzy becomes useless - spider form will only be entered for her execute/Rappel. That IMO is the weakest point in her kit - she's too squishy to use her AAs.

If she healed enough from Frenzy to have a bit more survivability I think she'd be in a good spot.