@Meddler If I may ask?

Poro Princess·Apr 14, 2016·13 votes·52,219 views

Hi Meddler, I'm not sure if you're the right person to ask, but I was wondering about my favourite champion: Katarina. What exactly is being done with and around her specifically? I know about the mage rework around the corner, but I haven't seen Kat mentioned in any of those posts at all. And frankly, I'm a little concerned that with the mage changes she's going to be heavily affected in one way or another.

Are you able to comment on if there is anything being done to her? I really like how she is now and if there are changes incoming, I would love it if they didn't drastically affect her style of play.

Thank you so much!

Sincerely, a Happy Poro ^-^

133 Comments

RiotMeddlerApr 14, 201615 votes

No kit changes to Kat planned for 6.9 (the mid-season patch). We'll definitely want to do some work on Kat whenever we look at assassins as a class though, at the soonest that'd be end of year though.

GarlicFriesApr 14, 20166 votes

Could you elaborate on what "end of year" means? As in, you'll START looking at it at the end of the year, to do an assassin rework for preseason? Or, you'll be changing assassins before Worlds to re-create a similar situation as last year, AKA Juggernaut Worlds 2015? [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

RiotMeddlerApr 14, 201629 votes

We're planning to do another class update at the end of the year (November ish, so after Worlds). Assassins are a strong option for that spot.

We won't be doing another class update between 6.9 and Worlds.

Krys StarApr 14, 201628 votes

Will supports also have updates? Their itemization are severely underwhelming, and there's not much distinct choices between the supports lately other than Janna, Soraka, Thresh and Blitz. I rarely ever see Leona, Nami, Sona, Bard, Braum, Taric (who's rework has been finalized), Tahm Kench or Lulu (as supports, not in general). To the point that Nautilus and Trundle have been better picks for supports. Even Zyra, Annie, Brand and Karma have become less desirable picks for support.

I feel like Sona's changes missed the mark. She's just a stunbot once she hits 6, with an unnoticeable and unappreciated kit in general. Nami either succeeds or fails in lane, and pretty much falls off after laning phase. Lulu has always been a better solo laner than she ever has been a support in 2 going on 3 years. Bard is neat and fun, but he's quite the double edged sword if his ult isn't used appropriately, on a very long cooldown with a heal that becomes a speedup since 10s is too long to charge it up outside of laning phase.

But then supports don't really have much options with their items now, either. Ardent Censer is pretty much a newb trap and isn't that great, since the aspd and on-hit damage don't scale at all with heal/shield amount, Mikael's Crucible feels like a gold sink with a ridiculously long cooldown, Zeke's Harbringer doesn't feel as great anymore with how easy it if for marksmen to access crit now, Aegis and Frozen Heart are often picked up by the jungler or top lane that picking it up yourself just feels like a waste of gold, and Zz'rot Portal has become a nearly mandatory item for most teams. The Sight Stone upgrades aren't even that intuitive, becoming more of a last upgrade than a useful upgrade.

Is it not possible to bring back Globe of Trust, Soul Shroud, or make changes to Mikael's Crucible, Ardent Censer, Zeke's Harbringer to make give supports a better time on the field? It feels like supports took a leap forward in season 5, and then took a few steps back when season 6 started. Inspiration was removed as a mastery, Expose Weakness was thrown into Ferocity, an unappealing tree for most supports/tanks (which should swap with Assassin, imo).

Also, could Nami's ult be coded so that Windwall/Unbreakable only shaves off a portion of Tidal Wave, instead of it disappearing instantly even if it touches the wall by half an inch.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 14, 20162 votes

Will supports also have updates? Their itemization are severely underwhelming, and there's not much distinct choices between the supports lately other than Janna, Soraka, Thresh and Blitz. I rarely ever see Leona, Nami, Sona, Bard, Braum, Taric (who's rework has been finalized), Tahm Kench or Lulu (as supports, not in general). To the point that Nautilus and Trundle have been better picks for supports. Even Zyra, Annie, Brand and Karma have become less desirable picks for support.

Bard, Braum are often pick in lcs... Zyra, Annie & Brand will be rework...

Expose Weakness was thrown into Ferocity, an unappealing tree for most supports/tanks (which should swap with Assassin, imo).

Agree, but Expose weakness should be in resolve IMO

Krys StarApr 14, 20162 votes

I rarely ever watch LCS, so I was only speaking from my experience of playing a LOT of Ranked. I wasn't aware of that part, so thank you for correcting me. My point about Zyra, Annie and Brand not being picked as support often was more that supporting is in a weird spot. This season lacks diversity. Badly.

GG YOU FED MEApr 14, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frozen Sovereign,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ht0BVKL6,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-14T10:01:59.743+0000)

I rarely ever watch LCS, so I was only speaking from my experience of playing a LOT of Ranked. I wasn't aware of that part, so thank you for correcting me. My point about Zyra, Annie and Brand not being picked as support often was more that supporting is in a weird spot. This season lacks diversity. Badly.

Are you high? This is the most diverse season yet. you can take nearly anyone anywhere.

VekknaApr 14, 20163 votes

You play almost all AD and some AP tanks. Of course you feel that way. Graves main.

KING 5HARKApr 14, 20163 votes

Actually this is the first time in like forever when more than 4 champions dominate each role. Id say its pretty diverse.

Gj on lolking'ing someone btw, really, the contribution by pointing out someones favourite champion is SOOO useful /s

GaleWinUnleashedApr 14, 20162 votes

Don't diss my Lulu! She's a fantastic support!

Krys StarApr 14, 20163 votes

I wasn't, silly. I was just saying she's rarely ever picked as a support. :P

CoolKnightSTApr 14, 20169 votes

Supports have a lot of problems still. Most of their impact still comes from warding. Not that it is bad or anything but they are still really depended on it in order to win games. Their playstyle is still highly focussed on staying away from the battlefield rather than actualy get involved.

As far items goes the start is decent but after that the option just are so limited you just end up building the same thing over and over again. The most standards builds are like:

A lot of items kinda lost their impact:

will probaly have some more play again after the mage buffs. The nerfs where still big tho and remains the most solid option.
is ok but it feels weaker than it was before. Probaly because the crit buffs on marksmen. It's still pretty good so no complains their. But as far options go with the line is pretty much dead. We still have but it's just so expensive for the support role.
pretty much got gutted for the support role. The repeated nerfs in order to ballance it out of the toplane together with the pretty "nah" components in the support role. Made it into a luxery item rather than an option your team actualy needs engage. The mage update might give some improvements to it. The buildline will still remain an underwhelming element from it.
it's really miserable that the only HP/AR/CDR item in the game remains in this position.
with the mage changes that also will effect . It might become an ok line for supports. Still fear that it will get nerfed to dead to ballance it for solo lanes like they did with . RIP
is a bit in a strange position. It's a luxery item that can be decent on a fell champions. It's an snowball item with average impact. The problem with the item is since it doesn't provide defensive stats you are not likely to rush it while in the lategame you pretty much reached the cdr cap to make it any more usefull. Personally I would like to see the componements change to + . It seems to have more impact for enchanter supports rather than the AP lane bullies they originally had in mind.

LabMem004Apr 14, 20162 votes

Will supports also have updates? Their itemization are severely underwhelming, and there's not much distinct choices between the supports lately other than Janna, Soraka, Thresh and Blitz. I rarely ever see Leona, Nami, Sona, Bard, Braum, Taric (who's rework has been finalized), Tahm Kench or Lulu (as supports, not in general). To the point that Nautilus and Trundle have been better picks for supports. Even Zyra, Annie, Brand and Karma have become less desirable picks for support.

I feel like Sona's changes missed the mark. She's just a stunbot once she hits 6, with an unnoticeable and unappreciated kit in general.

Hey, long time sona main, over 170k points on her as well, I personally don't think that her changes missed the mark whatsoever, and by all means she isn't a stunbot at all. Her heals and several things she can do with powerchord and her positioning makes her a very strong support. Sadly she just isn't played as much because a lot of people find her boring when she is actually a strong support.

Krys StarApr 14, 20162 votes

I played quite a bit of Sona, and she has lane presence for sure, but the buff her Q provides never feels noticeable, and the speed up on her E is great, but it only lasts so long for you, while your allies only benefit from a fraction of its duration. Her heal is great, the shield is great, but that's really it. Her W Power Chord is essentially a mini-Exhaust, and her Power Chord E slow is great. Power Chord Q is amazing in lane up until mid game, then it becomes a weak poke unless you have Sheen/Lich Bane built, I feel.

She's not a terrible champion, perse, but I strongly feel her update missed the mark. There's so many reasons to choose another support of her. Her stun is tied to her ult, which is a fairly long cooldown. Nami and Soraka have a better time healing, and Nami's passive outshines Sona's E until Sona puts more ranks into E, which is relatively late into the game. Nami also has the same poke output as Sona, if not lesser because Sona doesn't have to take a lot of risks to push Q and get damage out.

But that's all just my opinion.

woodvsmurphApr 18, 20162 votes

Agree with me or laugh me off as a silver "scrub" if you want -- doesn't matter. I'd agree with many of your points -- zeke's being mostly useless due to crit focus this season (still helps ashe and jhin though I think even if they already had 100%), zz'rot, ardent, mikael's you are correct. I'm sure if you talk to your jungle before game or at start, you could convince them not to build aegis though -- also it can help to have 2 if your tank is going to dive while you hang back peeling for adc. I think your idea with nami ult and windwall makes a ton of sense -- and not just for nami ult; for rumble ult or other spells too. Similarly, yi and fizz shouldn't get free pass out of 2nd proc of morg ult unless they actually leave her ult radius instead of relying on playful/trickster or alpha strike. I differ with your claim on champ viability for supports though. I know meta changes as you climb tiers -- i've been everything from bronze to gold in a season before. If you know a champ well enough, you can play them even if they are not meta -- and actually start shift to a new meta. Ex: I was spamming morg support about 6 months before she took off in pro-scene a few seasons back and destroying people. I played Nautilus support about 3 months before it became popular and a meta-pick. If you plan on winning in under 30, have you tried darius or noc support? They actually are not completely troll. You need to build full tank though -- maybe damage for 5th item if you get there. The Nocturne ult and fear/ Darius pull and passive mean adc's with limited mobility and/or range actually have to respect your damage early -- especially if their support is a janna or soraka. I'm not recommending either of them, but the point i'm trying to make is that other champs can be viable supports in current meta too. Does leona need a buff compared to some supports? Yeah. But in a meta with few gap closers, why not try tahm? If you are vs a disengage or neutral support like janna or raka, you have no fear of throwing lane. Post-laning, you can ult behind enemy team and easily force fight -- bonus if you bring heavy cc top like malph or poppy with you. Or bring back naut support. Have you tried ap Kayle support -- you don't have to feel bad about going ap because of scaling on your heal/movement speed buff -- plus you remove it as option for enemy top/mid to play. How about Braum , Gragas , Maokai , Shen , full tank Urgot (again a cheese pick) or Zyra ? Just saying -- with enough practice and the right picks by enemy team and your's there are non-meta champs that work. All the same, i agree with you that some supports deserve update and support items definitely do.

Cenobite AzazielApr 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

We're planning to do another class update at the end of the year (November ish, so after Worlds). Assassins are a strong option for that spot.

We won't be doing another class update between 6.9 and Worlds.

Shouldn't supports be a priority since a lot of the player base hate playing it? (See the crescent queue times) .

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

We're planning to do another class update at the end of the year (November ish, so after Worlds). Assassins are a strong option for that spot.

We won't be doing another class update between 6.9 and Worlds.

I think diving class need this update sooner than Assassin.... The all in chars seems in the same spot as immobile chars atm... without say worst (Aatrox, Irelia...)

Wolfy21Apr 14, 20164 votes

Why not supports ? Its the least played role, if you could rework the champions somehow maybe it will be played more.

I'd also love to see my old tanks be updated! There are just so many tanks that have nothing special to them and they are just CC machines or just have old boring and not really healthy kits currently. And if you do actually do tanks, please look into making Maokai jungle great again :)

Makuta TeridaxApr 14, 20165 votes

Meanwhile, Aatrox is crying in a corner.

YoumuusYTApr 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

We're planning to do another class update at the end of the year (November ish, so after Worlds). Assassins are a strong option for that spot.

We won't be doing another class update between 6.9 and Worlds.

PLS DONT TOUCH MY RENGAR

RiotMeddlerApr 14, 201611 votes

Whenever we work on assassins it's almost certain we'll work on Rengar.

QuephaApr 14, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Whenever we work on assassins it's almost certain we'll work on Rengar.

Why is he considered an assassin and not a diver? He seems to be kinda tanky, have no escapes, and also has auto steroids that would give him better sustained damage (hopefully at the cost of his burst)

RiotMeddlerApr 14, 20169 votes

First step in looking at Rengar would be to validate whether or not assassin made the most sense for him as a class, I'd agree diver captures a lot of his gameplay too. If we choose to do divers instead of assassins for the end of the year it's possible Rengar would still get looked at as a result.

OurLestradeApr 14, 20163 votes

Really do hope he gets more of a focus on the fighter/diver theme. Would fit his narrative as a hunter of the biggest and meanest monsters a lot more than just jumping defenceless squishies and running off giggling whilst spamming their mastery :P

SolideusApr 14, 20167 votes

What are the contestants for that spot; Diving Fighters, Assassins and Vanguard Tanks, yeah? Any other class?

RiotMeddlerApr 14, 20167 votes

Those three yeah.

QuephaApr 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Those three yeah.

What's a Vanguard Tank? The search feature on the boards is useless at trying to find other comments about this term.

RalanrApr 14, 20164 votes

Well a vanguard is someone who leads the way in new ideas, so a vanguard tank I'm guessing is an initiator tank like Sion , JarvanIV , and Malphite .

CarnicoreApr 14, 20166 votes

The other definition was "the foremost part of an advancing army or naval force" so you're probably right.

AtanchanApr 16, 20162 votes

I feel like taking a guess - are the other tank subclasses rearguards / peelers ( tanks that have subpar initiation potential but have plenty of counter-initiation tools, like Poppy and Maokai ), juggernauts ( tanks that also have high damage, but limited way to keep onto a target and low utility for the class, like Garen and Darius ), and bruisers ( might actually be a subclass of fighters - these are generalists who can dive into an enemy team, soak damage, kill the backline, and control a fight, but are not exceptional at any regard, like Volibear and Udyr ).

Vanguards and "rearguards" seem to be opposites with the same core strength in enabling teammates but utilized differently, whereas juggernauts use an entirely different method in generating threat in so much that they're the threat themselves. Bruisers generate threat in both ways, though they do neither as well as the others, and usually drop-off more dramatically than either. Vanguards create fantastic engages, juggernauts win engages, "rearguards" sabotage enemy engages, and bruisers do "kludgey" engages and then beat on a poor sap while their team deals with the rest of the enemy team while they're hopefully trying to save their own teammate.

I dunno. These seem like specific enough categories while still encompassing all proper tanks.

Gnart Even CloseApr 21, 20162 votes

there was a post in announcements about it. there are two categories of tanks: vanguards (initiators) and wardens (peelers). the fighter category now has juggernauts and divers. the old fighter category of light fighter got changed to skirmisher and is a subcategory of slayer (which also has assassins in it). i believe udyr is supposed to be a sort of juggernaut, but he is waaaayyy more mobile than normal juggernauts. i imagine volibear is about the same. they both take and deal damage and don't have any blinks/dashes and are weak to being kited (udyr is kind of impossible to kite though if you're not playing kalista or gnar)

DeDankMemerApr 14, 20162 votes

Everything about him screams assassin.. From his lore to his gameplay. His passive is entirely focused on stacking up kills and assists. The second part of his passive (bush leap) is literally made for him to punish squishy targets (like adcs/mages) that move around the jungle alone without vision.

Secondly he has clear counterplay.. Pick a lulu/janna as support and rengar's threat is severely undermined. A good peeling support such as leona can also eliminate the threat quite easily by sticking by her adc.

A rework that changes the class of a champion because of a different underlying issue is not the way to go here in my opinion. The more important problem is true sight. Apart from the fact that people barely buy pink wards across nearly all elos, the removal of the green ward indirectly buffed stealth assassins such as rengar/shaco. Perhaps look into more options of countering stealth with vision.

Of course rengar has high burst, but so does every other assassin, such as zed or talon. The problem of stealth assassins is not in their kits but limited vision. Although, quite strangely, I don't see nearly as many complaints about eve/shaco, both which have stealth on a much lower cooldown than rengar.

Rengar's only real ability and role is to assassinate high priority targets, and players should be aware of that and play against it. He is a niche champion, in a sense that he punishes splitting players and no vision on the map. He should be kept as a high risk high reward assassin, as I believe champion diversity should be preserved. By changing his kit to a bruiser/fighter you would be taking the easy way out, and completely scrapping the identity of a very unique champion which would be a great shame.

AtanchanApr 16, 20162 votes

I would definitely go with a diving fighter for Rengar over an assassin. He definitely seems like the guy to hunt down his prey and then brawl it out with them, rather than just hopping out from the brush and decapitating them in one slash. A sneak, certainly, but his huge build, use of bolas ( which are much more akin to a trapper, not a killer ), and honestly just how cool the image of Rengar barreling through a tower's shot to pin someone down and slash them to pieces really makes me feel like he's much more fit with sustained damage over burst.

KING 5HARKApr 14, 20161 votes

So what is the difference between assassin and diver/Rengar? Both dive the backline, oneshot somebody(or not) and then try to survive(escapes, Steroids). Nitpicking on role assignments for the sake of excluding a champion from a role-overhaul seems pretty starnge to me(Just like the people saying that Offtanks/Bruisers/Juggernauts are different)

QuephaApr 14, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=KING 5HARK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ht0BVKL6,comment-id=0002000100000007000100010001,timestamp=2016-04-14T18:13:20.318+0000)

So what is the difference between assassin and diver/Rengar? Both dive the backline, oneshot somebody(or not) and then try to survive(escapes, Steroids). Nitpicking on role assignments for the sake of excluding a champion from a role-overhaul seems pretty starnge to me(Just like the people saying that Offtanks/Bruisers/Juggernauts are different)

Divers do not oneshot targets and, in my opinion, neither should Rengar.

DeDankMemerApr 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Why is he considered an assassin and not a diver? He seems to be kinda tanky, have no escapes, and also has auto steroids that would give him better sustained damage (hopefully at the cost of his burst)

Tanky? Where did you get that from?

QuephaApr 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Tanky? Where did you get that from?

His high base hp at all levels, his above-average base armor at all levels, his W giving more resistances on top of that in addition to healing when empowered.

His slow and snare making him useful even when if he isn't dealing too much damage and his Q gaining a bonus from his base AD instead of bonus allowing him to synergize with Sterakk's, a major bruiser item, and his large AS boosts from Q and empowered Q make him benefit greatly from surviving a couple extra seconds in a fight to dish out some extra autos.

DeDankMemerApr 14, 20162 votes

That hardly makes him tanky.. If focused in a teamfight he can get blown up very easily if he builds full damage.

I do agree about your points about sterak's and his w though. Hopefully in the rework they keep him as stealthy assassin but change his W. It doesn't really fit in with the rest of his kit.

The sterak's problem is not limited to rengar. It's a problem of the item, it is still too strong in my opinion. I see it built on other assassins much more often than rengar though (zed springs to mind).

QuephaApr 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

That hardly makes him tanky.. If focused in a teamfight he can get blown up very easily if he builds full damage.

Rammus can be blown up easily in a team fight if he builds full damage, even with his W up, that isn't really saying anything.

Divers are tankier than assassins. Rengar is tankier than every assassin in the game except maybe himself if he happens to be considered an assassin.

DeDankMemerApr 14, 20163 votes

except he has no escapes once he assassinates, unlike zed/akali/fizz/kha'zix/leblanc/shaco/kassadin. The tiny bit of extra tankiness does not make him a diver, if he dives into a backline with a proper peeling support he is 100% dead. He relies far more on pick potential.

QuephaApr 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

except he has no escapes once he assassinates, unlike zed/akali/fizz/kha'zix/leblanc/shaco/kassadin.

Which is ALSO a common aspect of most diver champions (Irelia, Xin Zhao, Aatrox, Nocturne, Shyvana, Vi...)

PyrodiniumApr 14, 20164 votes

Do you think it is possible that an Assassin Roster Update could include a rework on how stealth works?

It seems to be a problematic aspect on some of them (Akali, Rengar, Talon).

RiotMeddlerApr 14, 20165 votes

I think it'd be a good time to look at stealth, in terms of general functionality and/or options playing against. Could imagine situations in which we did assassins without major stealth changes though, depending on what other work we also wanted to accomplish and how much benefit we felt stealth work would offer.

7fIrvwfP3iApr 14, 20164 votes

I suggested this once before, and I'd like to try suggesting it again.

The yellow and blue ward trinkets have differences that give reasons to keeping one or the other. Yellow is better for objective control and "Burst" warding where you need a lot of vision for an important objective. Blue is better for long term warnings and wide coverage over a long time but you don't store multiple charges and it's vision radius is smaller.

Why not have the two red trinkets have reasons for using one over the other? The starting red trinket could disable wards, show red outlines of invisible champs, follow the player and last a shorter time (maybe long enough to clear 2 wards by yourself), with a short cooldown. However the upgraded version will have a slightly larger area (but definitely smaller than it is now), does not disable wards, stays in the same spot it's cast on, revealing all invisible units and making invisible champions targetable, like the old lens did, with a longer cooldown.

The upgraded lens would be necessary when fighting invisible champs but would not provide the benefit junglers and supports would like out of the basic one: Lower cooldowns and vision denial. If you expect a gank from a Shaco, get ulted by Talon, or anything else, early game they will have the advantage because without a pink you can't see them. Upon hitting nine, though, upgrading to the second red trinket will be a godsend to some being stomped by an Akali or Rengar. Then it'd be a matter of balancing stealth around various vision options everyone has.

Also, another note on Vision: You'd think with a name like "Stalker's Blade" that it'd be more focused on invading the enemy jungle, but it ends up being more about protecting your own. Why not replace the yellow wards it can place with blue wards? And have it on a kinda 2 charge system that SLOWLY (agonizingly) recharges and players can reduce the timer on getting another ward by killing large jungle monsters. That way, it'd have versatility, being both good for defense and invades as well as objective control. Lee Sin wouldn't like it that much, but they usually either keep their yellow trinket or build a sightstone anyways.

Solarus17Apr 14, 20162 votes

What about diving fighters, HAVE YOU PLAYED AATROX RECENTLY HE EXTREMELY UNDERPOWERED, CANNOTATION WIN LANE AND HAS A BAD LATE GAME, HE'S FUN TO PLAY BUT EXTREMELY UNDERPOWERED

rat king99Apr 14, 20161 votes

I thought the reasoning for the immobile mage and ADC rework was because the classes weren't relevant enough and were underwhelming. Assassins fit their role and obviously do it properly seeing as they're a big reason ADCs and immobile mages needed updates in the first place.

RiotMeddlerApr 14, 20165 votes

Class reworks are primarily focused on making champions with a class more distinct from each other (in terms of how they play, what they offer to the team, what playing against them is like etc) and game health issues (counterplay especially).

AbyssphereApr 14, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Average Waifu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ht0BVKL6,comment-id=000200010000000f,timestamp=2016-04-14T17:52:39.854+0000)

I thought the reasoning for the immobile mage and ADC rework was because the classes weren't relevant enough and were underwhelming. Assassins fit their role and obviously do it properly seeing as they're a big reason ADCs and immobile mages needed updates in the first place.

Yes, ADCs were really struggling for relevance with their... 100% pick rate throughout the entire season.

rat king99Apr 30, 20161 votes

sorry for late reply I don't use league forums much.

Yes they were picked almost every game through the entire season but they were extremely weak throughout the entire season and lack luster making them irrelevant in comparison.

The last few seasons have had the lowest number of ADC Players ever, because why play an ADC and potentially care but more likely than not get one shot by an assassin when you can play the assassin and one shot the ADC?