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Please Explain the Difference Between Bronze-Challenger (SoloQ)

TheGrandAlliance··6 votes·15,116 views

...as spectating many a match on both sides: I fail to understand how (most) players of Challenger/Master/Diamond Tier are somehow "significantly better" then Bronze/Silver/Gold.

They make the same mistakes and same errors as do Bronze... same general lack of team coordination and all the rest So please: Tell my why Ranked Tiers even matter in LoL.

Here is not what explains this:

  1. Creep Score: I have seen all Tiers, Bronze and Challenger alike, have far lower CS then what LCS players can do per unit of time. I have seen Bronze with epix CS and Master Tier with "nothing". This observation takes into consideration lane ganks or otherwise as well.

  2. Vision Control: This is almost entirely dependent of the support. If you have someone playing support who shouldn't (either Bronze or Challenger alike) the VC will be terrible. Even other players fail to buy wards/triket upgrades. No sweeping of enemy wards. And you probably never see someone other then the support buy Sightstone (which for example in LCS player the jungler usually buys)

  3. Team Coordination: The strategies for both Bronze and Challenger are the same and do not exist in SoloQ... this has nothing to do with the meta-related concepts. Rather it has to do with: A. AFK farm for approx. 10 min, B. Once a turret is pushed go for dragon, C. Randomly fight mid, D. Randomly fight somewhere until you push something down, E. Take BN/More Dragons, F. Randomly Push Base, G. Repeat some other step until one team fails and ends. There is no coordination, even at the highest levels, and it just becomes a collection of 5 man players all attempting to carry without focused objectives. Matches are either completely one-sided (thanks to the magic of the MMR system) or matches are almost always decided at failed BN attempts).

If you watch LCS matches... they (the winning teams anyways) always have objectives in mind and strategies and backups strategies to engage them so.

  1. Player Skill: With the obvious observation that low Bronze basically have no idea what they are doing, and higher players have at least some idea, very few Master+ players are truly skilled with their champion. They may win... but not convincingly. Indeed, I have seen a few Master+ players that can do some crazy things with champions (such as Ahri Nidalee), but most of the time they give lackluster performances and do no stand out from any other player of the champion... nor compare to LCS play. Yet somehow some are Diamond+ and some are Gold or worse...

  2. Statistics (K/D/A or otherwise): This number is irrelevant. K/D/A comparisons are only as good as the relevant tiers: Someone who "smurfs bronze" will always have some crazy K/D/A vs someone in Challenger Tier. Comparing Bronze to Challenger on K/D/A means nothing as the statistics depend upon who your opponents are. IN other words: Pentakills in Bronze are much easier then otherwise.

I probably can add more to this list alas: Other then random long-term luck of who your team is/enemy team: Please explain how the Tier system of players are significantly different then any other tier of players. If you were to randomly spectate a ranked match without seeing the player tier banners: How would you determine what tier it is? I contest that you could take a Bronze or Silver level player (playing in favorable or otherwise fair position/team comp), place him into many Diamond+ Tier matches, and yet there would be no difference in outcomes...

Edit: Here is another way of looking at the problem. How do you define a:

Bronze Silver Gold Platinum Diamond Master Challenger

...Player. What amount of stats, skills training, or whatever classification does it take to "reach" a particular tier level? I would contest, especially B1-Gold; Platinum-Master; Master-Challenger, the differences become very minor or unobservable.

Indeed it is so...

36 Comments

The Whamboozler8 votes

Well you kinda already cockblocked all the answers people WOULD give you to your question, but you missed one.

Game knowledge. Good players know the game well. When to go in. When to play passive. When to try for objectives. When an opponent has made an error. Lower leveled players don't as often or as reliably punish mistakes made by their enemies. Or they go in too aggressively against people that can beat them. They don't understand some champion mechanics or match ups... they don't know what to build when and what that means for the power relative to their opponents. They don't always know WHY they are building the items they are, and when to change up their builds. They don't understand the flow of the game overall, and what certain map movements might mean their enemies are doing. They might see the enemy jungler top and not think to pressure bot or force dragon. They don't always respond quickly or properly to the things their opponents do. If a Sej whiffs her ult while the two teams are dancing around mid, they might keep dancing rather than force a fight now heavily in their favor.

And more than anything else, from what I've seen... they don't know how to close out a game. A good player who gets a lead, even a slight lead... will stomp you with it. He'll snowball other lanes. He'll take objectives and rack up more kills knowing his own strength. He'll bully down towers and apply his strength to the game in a way that creates a ton of pressure, and then when there is an opening to close the game, he'll take it. They will put the enemy on the defensive and rarely, if ever, let up the pressure.

Now I'm just some Silver scrub like so many others... but you really loaded your question. You can't ask something like "why are higher tier players better than lower ones", then make a list of all the things that people will tell you that higher tier players do better and discount them. Yes, some high ranking players got lucky and probably aren't as good as their rank suggests. Yes, some lower players play rarely enough or are unlucky enough that they might deserve a better rank than they have. But on the whole, higher ranked players are better at the game than lower ones. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this post... but there is your answer. The difference between bronze and Challenger players is that bronze players don't play the game as well. Dur.

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

{quoted}

Well you kinda already cockblocked all the answers people WOULD give you to your question, but you missed one.

Game knowledge. Good players know the game well. When to go in. When to play passive. When to try for objectives. When an opponent has made an error.

Well technically I did address your issue under my original post. Alas IT is true that Bronze of course may suck... but I don't see much difference in knowledge between Diamond/Master/Challenger and even Silver/Gold/Platinum for most part. IF you look at the relevant builds as a spectator and what they do they are mostly "meta-compliant". This may or many not be true at lower Tiers but yes it is more possible and likely that someone who plays their best character in Bronze/Silver/Gold will have the same build effectiveness as with higher tiers.

And TeamFights? I did address this as well. I don't see any difference here between Bronze/Challenger. In non-LCS SoloQ play teams continuously misestimate the power levels of themselves and their enemies. They feed when they need not to. They dive recklessless. Fail to dodge skillshots. Push the same direction (usually mid) vs changing lanes. And most of all... usually going for BN when they have no control over BN... wipe and lose the match.

I have seen high MMR teams "not able to finish" just as I have seen countless others. So I fail to understand how this compares at all in a relative stance.

IN theory you should see Challenger/Master matches with very low kills like you do in NA/EU LCS. Alas they are still just as high as even Bronze games because matches are just the cumulative summary of mistakes made in a match... and not of skill/strategy.

Indeed... there is a "difference" in matches in terms of the "trolls" in the low MMR alas: Comparing a relatively skilled Sub-Platinum Player with higher level player... I fail to see any significant difference in skillplay. Take a Gold and put him into a Master+ match and I fail to see why this Gold would be any worse then any other player.

Vyktor826 votes

Some of the other responses have touched on this and I guess I will try my hand at its explanation

Relative Skill Level, or for short, RSL, is the reason for your inability to see stark differences. I'm going to use some examples here, from a non-LOL world, and then try my best at using a LOL-world version of the same thing.

in the MLB, good hitters are sitting around .300 avg. You know what? so are high school kids! HOW CAN THIS BE!? Are MLB players only as good at baseball as some punk 15-18 year old kids!? Of course not. If you went and took a professional MLB player who hits .300 in the big leagues, and throw him onto a high school team, he's going to have his average shoot through the roof and he'll be seen as some amazing star. The reverse happens with the high schooler put onto the big league team. Do MLB players make mistakes? you bet. Even downright embarrassing ones. However, they play 162 games a year, and when all is said and done, their statistical averages while playing against other players with RLS, will be within acceptable ranges. the high schooler playing in the big leagues might knock one out of the park, and may make some great plays, but after 162 games, he's not going to end up the same as the others, he'll be much further behind.

In Street Fighter, you can watch two high level players go at it, and they'll make mistakes, and again, some even embarrassing ones. Yet, it's the same players every tourney that you see rising to the top 8/16 every time. They'll beat lesser skilled players in 2/3 and long sets. Even if you can best Daigo in one game, he's going to destroy you over time if your RSL is not near his. Also, while watching higher players, you may think, what's so special about their play!? They do the same things I do and all the others who are watching rather than playing. What gives? What's different? a lot of things are different. When playing RSL, it's possible your moves / setups that worked on the "noobs" will be ineffective against your RSL....because hey, if you know you can do it, wouldn't you think a RSL would know it can be done and know a counter/defense? So if you "Go in" and then you get blown up, you look like a clown, don't you? but against lower skilled players that works and you look like a genius!

so while watching higher tier / lower tier LOL, it'll be similar to those examples above. when a diamond/master/challenger decides to tower dive a bronze player, they're most likely going to succeed and look awesome doing it. However, against RSL, if they tried the same thing, they might get taken down and then look like an idiot. those high tier guys are still going to make mistakes too, but if you watch them play every one of their games, they'll, overall, even out to their RSL. As far as communication and stuff goes, in a soloQ, I'm pretty sure they're not all on mics talking to each other....so they have to wait and watch what their teammates do. They may all be thinking, "now would be a good time for dragon" but unless someone initiates the move somehow by ping or actual movement to it, no one will know it is time to do so. When players are playing with other players with RSL, you can be sure that they generally think the same way and make the same decisions you would.

Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone can have flashes of brilliance. Consistency is the main component of your skill level, and your ability to be consistent against a certain caliber of player is what makes your RSL. If your skill is above your opponents, you'll do great and your "relative mistakes" will be small/insignificant. if your skill is below, the opposite will be true. If your skill is equal, you'll end up looking average with some mistakes.

So that's your Bronze Vs Challenger difference. I hope this helps/made sense for you.

LoRdJeSuS69694205 votes

This is silly. Master players are going to look less good when they are playing against other master players. Put a team of master players vs. a team of bronze players and see what happens. I'm a mid diamond player, and if you put me in bronze I can single handedly carry almost every game.

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

{quoted}

This is silly. Master players are going to look less good when they are playing against other master players. Put a team of master players vs. a team of bronze players and see what happens. I'm a mid diamond player, and if you put me in bronze I can single handedly carry almost every game.

No what I am trying to get at is that higher players make the same fundamental errors that everyone else does... and matches even almost look the same.

One way to observe this is to load up a random ranked match without looking at the player levels: Could you tell me what Tier they are? Probably not likely.

And BTW I would like to see you try to carry yourself out of B3 for Season 5 alas...

LoRdJeSuS69694203 votes

{quoted}

No what I am trying to get at is that higher players make the same fundamental errors that everyone else does... and matches even almost look the same.

One way to observe this is to load up a random ranked match without looking at the player levels: Could you tell me what Tier they are? Probably not likely.

And BTW I would like to see you try to carry yourself out of B3 for Season 5 alas...

They don't, though. They do literally everything better. When the enemy team is also doing things better it can be hard to see at times (especially if you are yourself a bronze player and don't necessarily know what to look for), but the differences are very real. It's easy to see "oh look he made a mistake" in both bronze and higher levels, but you usually only notice errors when they are taken advantage of by the other team. Bronze players make zillions of mistakes, but you don't notice them all because their opponents are just as bad, and are unable/unaware enough to take advantage of them. Sometimes my friend and I will watch bronze games for fun simply because they are so entertaining and derpy in a way that higher elo games aren't. There are even popular chinese streams dedicated solely to watching bronze players just because it's hilarious (not trying to be offensive here, just honest).

And I have actually carried myself out of bronze 1 (up to gold something) on an account that a friend gave me earlier this season. When I was saying I could carry bronze games single handedly, it was from real experience lol

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

{quoted}

They don't, though. They do literally everything better. When the enemy team is also doing things better it can be hard to see at times (especially if you are yourself a bronze player and don't necessarily know what to look for), but the differences are very real. It's easy to see "oh look he made a mistake" in both bronze and higher levels, but you usually only notice errors when they are taken advantage of by the other team. Bronze players make zillions of mistakes, but you don't notice them all because their opponents are just as bad, and are unable/unaware enough to take advantage of them. Sometimes my friend and I will watch bronze games for fun simply because they are so entertaining and derpy in a way that higher elo games aren't. There are even popular chinese streams dedicated solely to watching bronze players just because it's hilarious (not trying to be offensive here, just honest).

And I have actually carried myself out of bronze 1 (up to gold something) on an account that a friend gave me earlier this season. When I was saying I could carry bronze games single handedly, it was from real experience lol

What I am trying to get at is:

How do you determine the "skill level of a..."

Silver Gold Platinum Diamond Master Challenger

If you were to load up a game... how would you be able to determine, based upon matchplay, what tier you are watching? Of course, something like a Bronze (especially low one) is usually easy to spot given all the new players, however: How do you tell the difference between Gold/Diamond? Diamond/Challenger? They all look the same after a point.

Finally you carried yourself out of B1 yes... but the "hell" doesn't generally apply until B3 as effectively all Season 4 Silver and some Gold got placed all in the same B3 division. Try to carry yourself out of that mess:)

Sinister Snail2 votes

{quoted}

What I am trying to get at is:

How do you determine the "skill level of a..."

Silver Gold Platinum Diamond Master Challenger

If you were to load up a game... how would you be able to determine, based upon matchplay, what tier you are watching? Of course, something like a Bronze (especially low one) is usually easy to spot given all the new players, however: How do you tell the difference between Gold/Diamond? Diamond/Challenger? They all look the same after a point.

Finally you carried yourself out of B1 yes... but the "hell" doesn't generally apply until B3 as effectively all Season 4 Silver and some Gold got placed all in the same B3 division. Try to carry yourself out of that mess:)

Gonna put a disclaimer here: I lost my first two provisionals and I don't feel motivated to do the rest, and land in cardboard 2.

I HAVE noticed that I and others suck dick at warding in the normals I'm matched in, and that isn't an issue in high tiers. I think MrPerson's made a pretty decent argument for the high skill player/high rank. Sure, some people are going to use tricks and shit to get into ranks they don't deserve, but I'm certain 99% of the people in bronze bitching about how they should be plat or gold are full of it, and accusing real diamonds of bronze skill is largely sour grapes.

kJs1 votes

When I watch someone play the first thing I look at is their cs in the current minute of the game they are in. About 70-90 cs in 10-12 mins is pretty fucking good low plat/diamong/high gold level of csing. I get like 40-65 at 11-14 mins. I'm really inconsistent with my csing. I think I'm about mid silver; I'm unranked.

You can watch some streamers on Twitch that point out their mistakes or mistakes that less experienced players make all the time like Pawnce and Nightblu3. Every mistake and missed advantage exploit they talk about is the difference between gold to plat even. Mistakes like missing a siege minion bronze players won't mind.

Another game knowledge thing you need to learn to get better is how minion waves work. When to back to miss the least amount of last hits/xp/gold.

How, where to place wards depending on team compositions. e.g.: You ward farther into the river/jungle if you are fighting Shacos, Rengar, Hecarim because they can have a way of getting to you without you seeing them. In Hecarim's case he can just come at you at 900mph with you having little options.

How team compositions work. Bronze players will care very little about team compositions. There will be no Challenger games were everyone plays full carries because it doesn't work against a competent team. In Bronze it works because the enemy can't capitalize on it.

Bronze players typically won't know much about when their champions or of others will reach their powerspikes. Vayne gets a small powerspike with a finished Botrk because it's one of her core items. She gets one at level 3 when she gets all her combat abilities. Caitlyn has hers at level 2 where she can get both her combat abilities early. Udyr has a very static power curve as another example. He doesn't have a special ultimate ability so he doesn't really get one there. etc.

MrPerson103 votes

This is probably going to be a bit of a novel, so bear with me.

First, I'd like to say I mean no disrespect to those in bronze and lower elo in general. I was there, I've just moved up. I'm going to use the term bronzie throughout because it's simply easier than typing out bronze player, and usually makes for more concise points. There is a TON of concepts that separate different skill levels, and while I'm not challenger or anything - I've certainly climbed from being the old Bronze 3 shitter I was to a Platinum I spot currently, finishing in Diamond 4 in Season 4. Here's my two cents.

  1. Decision making skills. This is something that has forever held me back, and I feel "stuck" in high plat/low diamond because of my lack of consistently good decision making. While decision making largely lands on the jungler in obvious terms of ganking vs farming, this transitions into laners as well with:

  2. Objective control, which, being an objective based game, is your goal. If you can control objectives well (namely better than the other team does) then there is absolutely no reason to lose the game, no matter how fed someone is. Speaking of feed..

  3. Understanding matchups and how to play into them properly (YES, this includes jungles). A bronze Riven against a Bronze J4, they both go ham at lvl 2 as every bronze Riven seems to want to, J4 wins by miles. Level 3, riven wins if you've evenly harassed each other. Picking a bad fight and not understanding what to do with it is what results in the mass feeds you see in bronze. A challenger player understands this matchup and won't be forcing a fight at lvl 2 as Riven and will instead be trying to survive until lvl 3 where they can trade more evenly.

  4. "Spreading the feed." Sometimes its much more efficient to give away a kill to someone who's slightly more behind than to take it for yourself, the same goes for defending a turret from a superwave. Are you fed in comparison to your other carries? If so, you don't need the superwave - pass it off to someone who does.

  5. **Creep Score **- namely in lane. This is the fastest and most consistent gold income - therefore, the fastest and most consistent way to get fed, no exceptions. Bronzies tend not to achieve decent CS until later in the game when they have great waveclear and can simply walk up to a superwave and clear it, higher tier players are more consistent throughout the game with their farm, last hitting in lane is much more efficient - this helps them transition more easily into the mid-game where the next point comes in to shine.

  6. Team coordination. Not necessarily through communication either as there are multiple Diamond 1- challenger people who do nothing but ping and talk shit about each other (mostly because they play with the same few people when they play). These people simply think the same things because it's the better decision to make, back to point #1. You see this a LOT more with those who have been in those higher tiers for longer, as they've become accustomed to the other peoples' playstyles around their elo and understand the pattern of thinking that comes with it.

  7. Vision control. I'm going to quote you here, and shoot you down entirely. "This is almost entirely dependent of the support." This is so far from the truth it isn't funny. It is everyone's job to be placing vision and denying enemy vision. It doesn't matter if you're an AD carry, mid lane assassin, etc. It does not matter, it is equally your job to get proper vision control as it is your support's. Example, there's zero reason for a support to be picking up a sightstone if they have a Lee Sin on their team because sightstone is, without a doubt, core on the Blind Monk. It gives him the astounding mobility we all know him for.

  8. Player skill. This includes literally everything above + comfort levels with a champion. To emphasize this point, you see the pick/ban phases in LCS are not targetted at "who's in a good spot right now," but are rather targetted at "which champ is this guy most comfortable with? Can we play around it or should we ban it away?" As an example, Bjergsen is extremely comfortable (arguably most comfortable) on Zed, Orianna and Syndra - however Syndra isn't in a great place right now and Zed fits into more of TSM's usual comps than Orianna does. We do sometimes see Zed banned away from him because of that comfort level. However, in (particularly lower tier) solo queue, you can't know what someone's comfort/main champion is. However to touch on what you said about being lackluster, making plays look "pretty" or going full-blown InSec isn't something you require to be successful. You don't need to make big plays to be good. Nightblue3 is largely considered one of the top 5 non-lcs junglers on NA, yet rarely makes plays look flashy.

  9. KDAR (Kill/Death/Assist Ratio). To touch on what you said about KDARs, you're mostly right. KDARs mean next to nothing, it's about objective control and yes, Diamond-challenger players will probably be getting pentakills. However that pentakill comes from a much greater understanding of basic game mechanics - and it allows them to take an objective or two, maybe more depending on the time in the game. Regardless of that, KDARs serve two purposes, really. Firstly, obviously you're doing well so you will be ahead in gold income. Secondly and most importantly, you're keeping your opponents down and making it much harder for them to come back the more they're kept down.

  10. Mistakes. There's not a whole lot to be explained here, the less mistakes you make, the less negative effect it has on you as a player in the game and your team as a whole - furthering your chances of success. Mistakes can be anything - proper prioritization of targets, proper positioning, good plays, etc - all of them can be done poorly, and that's nothing but a mistake. This, however, does not necessarily mean you die to represent that mistake. To exemplify this, here's one of Nightblue3's videos where he even highlights exactly what he did wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAnTKyWA6V0 at 1:01:26, he single-handedly throws a team fight. He does die, but is the last to die.

In summary, as someone who's progressed through the ladder to the top 10% of players, there is a MASSIVE difference between bronze and platinum/diamond that only someone who's really progressed through it can see in themselves. Also Commando Yi (season 4 Diamond I player) has an Ashe only account that he got in Bronze 5 and progressed to Diamond using only Ashe in and lost exactly zero games up until the Platinum II division.

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

{quoted}

This is probably going to be a bit of a novel, so bear with me.

First, I'd like to say I mean no disrespect to those in bronze and lower elo in general. I was there, I've just moved up. I'm going to use the term bronzie throughout because it's simply easier than typing out bronze player, and usually makes for more concise points. There is a TON of concepts that separate different skill levels, and while I'm not challenger or anything - I've certainly climbed from being the old Bronze 3 shitter I was to a Platinum I spot currently, finishing in Diamond 4 in Season 4. Here's my two cents.

Yes I tried to address this all in my OP: What I am getting at is that I see the same mistakes/gameplay in a lower MMR match as I do in higher MMR matches. The points you list could apply to any tier match. I have seen Bronze ranked players do everything you listed and more... and Diamond+ players/teams do nothing that you listed. There is no consistency between the ranks, outside of the very top tier of players like one you mentioned who could. I doubt that you could take a random Challenger Player for example, make him use only Ashe , and have him repeat the performance that you specified.

I also doubt that you could take a random Diamond+ player... put him in B5 and expect him to carry himself out of Bronze and back to where he started. IF there is truly a difference in Tiers then that player (over enough games) should be able to carry themselves out of Bronze 100% of the time.

But yet... especially when the tiers are closer together in comparison: I have seen people who have been "Gold lifers" all of a sudden get stuck in Bronze. Or Platinum Players stuck in Silver/Gold. IF there is truly a "skill differential" that can be used to classify the tiers; then assuming no change in relative skill ability, the "nerfed" players should be able to rebound to their previous tiers 100% of the time. However, especially as seen in Season 5, this is not the case... indeed far from it.

The points you listed are all examples of good gameplay... usually found in TeamQ or LCS playstyle... but on a point by point basis you could rerun any Diamond+ SoloQ match and see they are making the same fundamental errors that lower MMR SoloQ make. Whether it being the lack of vision control that leads to a wipe at Baron, the misplaced teamfights, the overfeed in early game, or even composition issues: The only difference is that one tier is ranked higher then the other.

Alas... in theory I probably could design a scientific test to prove or disprove my theory but alas that would be difficult to do without coordination or otherwise "power". I contest however in general terms that Tiers in the end make no difference, especially tiers that are close together (High Bronze/Silver/Gold; Platinum/Diamond/Master/Challenger). At best I can see a "2 tier system" and not the current 7 listed at moment.

MrPerson103 votes

I also doubt that you could take a random Diamond+ player... put him in B5 and expect him to carry himself out of Bronze and back to where he started

I hand-fed you an example of someone who did exactly that, on a champion he had never previously used in a role he doesn't do often as he's maining jungle bruiser Yi.

Of course everyone makes mistakes and performs flawlessly other times. However, referring to point #10 - the sheer number of overall mistakes you make drastically decreases. A bronze level jungle main may make 12 mistakes in a 50 minute game (I'm being extremely generous there, many make as much as a mistake every 2 minutes, no matter how minor) whereas, in the link I specified, Nightblue's team started out way behind 0-6, their lead further away at 4/13 not long after with their faces being pushed in. He made exactly one major mistake throughout the game without correcting it, which was that team fight at 1:01:26.

You're thinking in a totally bronze mind-set, quite frankly. Yes, shitters exist everywhere. TSM Amazing ring a bell? Yknow, the least influential Lee Sin main the LCS has ever seen - a lot of that is because he tried to make everything look pretty. Compare him to other junglers, he's bottom of the charts. Overall though, their gameplay is much better than those in the divisions under them. I'd be willing to wager that if I was given my champion of choice (Katarina) vs TSM Amazing, who isn't even a mid main, he would still take a shit all over me because he absolutely understands the game mechanics and the ins-and-outs far better than I do.

I can go back and look at my old bronze games and see that I made a MASSIVE amount of small, but significant mistakes that I don't make at all anymore. Every mistake costs you time, if nothing else. Wasting time is being less efficient. Being less efficient is being less effective. Being less effective leaves you at a disadvantage. Example, I used to jungle often and I found that occasionally I'd clear wraith camp/red/golems then want to walk to the other side of the jungle to clear those. Huge mistake. Why? It's a waste of time. It will take well over 10 seconds to do that. I'm already down by bot lane, it would take around 5 seconds to hit bot and create pressure, 12-13 to get to mid and create pressure. I should be choosing to gank mid or bot or returning to base. If I wanted to go to the other side of the jungle and farm more, I should've started clearing at golems. It's those little decisions that separate ranks.

PS, this is the account I use for ranked play: http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=biissfui

I don't perform consistently well outside of using Katarina, and even sometimes feed on Kat. But if I didn't have the level of game mechanics and understanding that I do, I'd be feeding every game at my elo.

KirbyCake2 votes

as somebody who has been in every single elo at some time

im going to say you are correct, there is no difference

Sailor Mint2 votes

The fact that there's always at least one troll on your team?

Sinister Snail2 votes

{quoted}

This is silly. Master players are going to look less good when they are playing against other master players. Put a team of master players vs. a team of bronze players and see what happens. I'm a mid diamond player, and if you put me in bronze I can single handedly carry almost every game.

{quoted}

Well technically I did address your issue under my original post. Alas IT is true that Bronze of course may suck... but I don't see much difference in knowledge between Diamond/Master/Challenger and even Silver/Gold/Platinum for most part. IF you look at the relevant builds as a spectator and what they do they are mostly "meta-compliant". This may or many not be true at lower Tiers but yes it is more possible and likely that someone who plays their best character in Bronze/Silver/Gold will have the same build effectiveness as with higher tiers.

And TeamFights? I did address this as well. I don't see any difference here between Bronze/Challenger. In non-LCS SoloQ play teams continuously misestimate the power levels of themselves and their enemies. They feed when they need not to. They dive recklessless. Fail to dodge skillshots. Push the same direction (usually mid) vs changing lanes. And most of all... usually going for BN when they have no control over BN... wipe and lose the match.

I have seen high MMR teams "not able to finish" just as I have seen countless others. So I fail to understand how this compares at all in a relative stance.

IN theory you should see Challenger/Master matches with very low kills like you do in NA/EU LCS. Alas they are still just as high as even Bronze games because matches are just the cumulative summary of mistakes made in a match... and not of skill/strategy.

Indeed... there is a "difference" in matches in terms of the "trolls" in the low MMR alas: Comparing a relatively skilled Sub-Platinum Player with higher level player... I fail to see any significant difference in skillplay. Take a Gold and put him into a Master+ match and I fail to see why this Gold would be any worse then any other player.

Seems like we just need to set up a custom match with all bronze players and one Diamond. If OP is right, it'll be close. If not, carry hard.

Could probably do a few trials, for gold, plat and challenger too, and try putting a Bronze or silver in a diamond match.

Who's online?

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

{quoted}

Seems like we just need to set up a custom match with all bronze players and one Diamond. If OP is right, it'll be close. If not, carry hard.

Could probably do a few trials, for gold, plat and challenger too, and try putting a Bronze or silver in a diamond match.

Who's online?

Yes... probably true.. but you would have to make sure that the players are truly of their ranks, not trolls, not elo-boosted, and play their best positions relatively so and that the team compositions doesn't automatically favor one side or the other.

A best test would also probably require a series and not a single game due to random variables that could effect gameplay. The only way to logically test this theory of mine is to take 2 sets of teams that are exactly the same (which is hard to figure out) and take one of the players out and replace with a lower MMR player. Also the position of this could matter as well in the results... as of course supports do not have to "carry" as others.

Also I do admit that there is a difference between "True Bronze" and "MMR "bronze" that is usually players B4/B5 are just horrible whereas B1-B3 are about the same. For such an experiment take players who were season 4 Silver+ but are now find themselves in Bronze.

Finally... although my theory speaks in generalizations... there will always be players who defy the standards. Furthermore there are indeed clearly Master+ players who deserve to be there and I do see them every so often.

Sinister Snail1 votes

{quoted}

Yes... probably true.. but you would have to make sure that the players are truly of their ranks, not trolls, not elo-boosted, and play their best positions relatively so and that the team compositions doesn't automatically favor one side or the other.

A best test would also probably require a series and not a single game due to random variables that could effect gameplay. The only way to logically test this theory of mine is to take 2 sets of teams that are exactly the same (which is hard to figure out) and take one of the players out and replace with a lower MMR player. Also the position of this could matter as well in the results... as of course supports do not have to "carry" as others.

Find two 5 man bronze ranked teams. As for the lane, I'd sub out top for the diamond. Usually less map presence than mid or jg, and less innate carry than adc. Still could faceroll the team if he snowballs, though.

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

{quoted}

Find two 5 man bronze ranked teams. As for the lane, I'd sub out top for the diamond. Usually less map presence than mid or jg, and less innate carry than adc. Still could faceroll the team if he snowballs, though.

Well the problem is that ranked teams and SoloQ are different. In teamplay there is plenty of pre-coordination and planning that, indeed that alone makes a difference in gameplay.

However my theory only addresses SoloQ: Whereas players are randomly mixed together and without any ability to coordinate/train together. Take a Bronze/Silver Player, sub him into an all Master+ match, and see what happens.

LoRdJeSuS69694202 votes

The "fundamental mistakes" you describe have nothing to do with actual skill--they have to do with relative skill. Someone feeding is primarily an indicator of RELATIVE skill--if they are playing against someone who is even better, they might lose the lane, just as a bronze player might lose the lane to someone. But the actual skill is FAR different, and that is why the master tier player is in the master tier, and the bronze player is in the bronze tier.

It's like watching a kid's soccer game vs. watching a professional soccer game. You can say they both make the same "fundamental mistakes"--bad passes, people not being covered, goalie making a silly mistake, etc. But that's because the GAME that's being played is fundamentally the same at every rank, not because the skill level is the same at every rank. The skill levels of the individual players are worlds apart, and the SPECIFIC mistakes that are made are extremely different. A "bad pass" in the professional soccer scene is an entirely different thing from a "bad pass" in a kiddie game.

LoRdJeSuS69694202 votes

"I also doubt that you could take a random Diamond+ player... put him in B5 and expect him to carry himself out of Bronze and back to where he started. IF there is truly a difference in Tiers then that player (over enough games) should be able to carry themselves out of Bronze 100% of the time."

You can! It is incredibly easy to do so! Maybe if you were diamond 1, you would have a little trouble making the jump from diamond 3 to diamond 1, since it is so close, but you will work your way into diamond very easily. Like I said before, I've made a number of smurfs, and I can generally boost them up from silver all the way to plat very quickly (here is one example, look at the elo-graph: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/61957536#profile). Anytime a streamer makes a new smurf you can see the same thing happening--winning virtually every single game up until plat (barring the occasional unwinnable game) or so, at which point they begin to slow down a bit (but still climb quickly).

You climb the ladder by impacting the game in a way that helps your team win. If you are way better than the people you are playing with, you exert a very strong force on the game, and are able to win nearly every game. As you get closer and closer to your true ranking, and your opponents improve, the force you are able to exert on the game diminishes, but as long as it is positive you will continue to climb. Similarly, if the force you exert on the game is negative, you will tend to lose more than you win on average, and will lose rank.

I am finding it difficult to believe that you actually think nobody is better than anyone else at the game--it is obviously not the case. The categories that MrPerson and others have listed are examples of places you can improve; areas where skill levels are able to differ from player to player. Are you really going to say that nobody is consistently better at any of those things than anyone else? That people don't learn matchups and how to trade and how to farm better over time? That certain people don't have better reaction times and map awareness than others?

paShadoWn2 votes

The thing that separates high tier from low is the belief. High tiers are unshakably convinced they are the best. Low tiers have been forced into believing that they are baddies. And faith actually matters.

xXSingularityXx2 votes

Dont get me wrong mate but if you are not challenger you cant compare challenger vs other ranks :D Like when bronze player watches bronze ranked game and challenger ranked game he wont see the difference simply because he watches it from his low elo point of view. Believe me, diamond1/master/challenger is incomparable with rest and definetily not with bronze.

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

[{quoted}](name=El Cucuy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HiAJIWEk,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-08-02T03:02:01.955+0000)

Dont get me wrong mate but if you are not challenger you cant compare challenger vs other ranks :D Like when bronze player watches bronze ranked game and challenger ranked game he wont see the difference simply because he watches it from his low elo point of view.

LoL no this is naïve point of view. It is possible for anyone who tries to see some differences between the tiers if you watch it. Things such as creep score, skill shot landings, organization, the like. However that doesn't mean that on a fundamental basis the players in Bronze make the same errors that even Challenger does... thus effectively the same.

Believe me, diamond1/master/challenger is incomparable with rest and definetily not with Bronze.

Compared to LCS play... yes they are. Especially NA... I know that you are on EUW servers and spending some time there myself EUW is definitely better tier wise. However this being NA board: NA challenger is...

GO TSM! :)

PS: IDK how you found this thread... it is over 5 months old but GGWP.

Indeed it is so...

Cruk2 votes

You cannot compare Solo Q to the LCS lmao, you have to compare ranked 5's to the LCS which would the be challenger teams that dont make it into the LCS, lots of ranked 5's teams are really good with great coordination, of course ranked 5's gameplay looks better than solo Q because they are players that are familiar with each other using voice communication haha. You watch challenger play, that has LCS players playing in the solo Q game on twitch or whatever, and they might lose lane or the game because, well shit it's solo Q is miles different from ranked 5's, and im not just saying its different, it really IS different, said millions of times by Pro's and alike. The problem that you see mistakes that are similar between Elo's is good, it will help you advance, but in reality if you could see all the problems being made you would be able to spot your own and improve, some mistakes are really obvious, and some arent, like when should I have split pushed, i lost lane and had to TP back for farm now he has TP advantage on me while dragon is up, ETC millions of examples and variables. Its harder for low elo players to recognize all the mistakes they make, otherwise they would fix them and advance, if you pinned me up against literally ANY bronze or silver player that wasnt a smurf or whatever, i could "wipe the floor" with them, not to be mean, but i have been silver before, and it does not compare to higher elo, and im not even that high!

When you make it to high elo, and gain more understanding of the game, you will advance and realize that just like in ANY sport or game, there are differing levels of play, in ANYTHING people are better than others and have differing skill, league is no exception.

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

{quoted}

When you make it to high elo, and gain more understanding of the game, you will advance and realize that just like in ANY sport or game, there are differing levels of play, in ANYTHING people are better than others and have differing skill, league is no exception.

WE are going to have to agree to disagree then. BTW one doesn't need to be good to know what good-ness looks like. RIOT employees for example that are not LCS or even challenger (such as Phreak) but yet they basically develop the game know what they are doing. Or anyone else for that matter. The "you have to be elite to know an elite" is an ad homen attack that is not logical therefore.

Lastly, all one has to do is compare NA/EU SoloQ to Korea and GG WP. GO TSM!!! (or not because they suck)

Indeed it is so...

LoRdJeSuS69694201 votes

The lower the better dude...It only gets easier...give me your info and I'll do it free of charge lol

And again, they only look the same to someone who doesn't know what they are looking for... at least to me, they don't look the same at all. Lower level players just make so many more obvious and silly mistakes on such a consistent basis...the whole quality of play is just on an entirely different level. The way they move their champion, the way they use their abilities (if they even remember to use them), the average CS scores at any given point of time, etc...just the way the whole game plays out. It looks very very different.

bad arcade kitty1 votes

one of the clearest things it's trinkets low skill matches can easily have 10 people without upgraded trinkets 30 minutes in despite an upgraded ward trinket would give them an immense help also people there rarely buy and use sweeping lenses

second most clear things it's support builds, low skill supports tend not to buy the gold items and sightstone, especially if they play a kill lane support (zed support mwuahahaha) or an ap mage (annie, morgana etc) as a support

third thing it's farm, especially early game farm, late game it may be volatile depending how the game went, but low skill games tend to have a pitiful early game farm

forth thing it's bloodiness, low skill games tend to have a huge amount of deaths because people don't quickly push for objectives after they won a skirmish, instead they fight, go back, fight, go back etc, also because they are usually less careful and make very risky moves

fifth thing it's how people use their champs, how many skillshots they miss, what they build on them (a lux rushing sheen into lich bane and not even bothering to build boots? an ashe with trinity (!) and chilly mittens? well, it's the most striking examples but generally low skill games sometimes have stupid builds, albeit to have a decent build is the easiest part, because your recommended items usually aren't bad)

xXSingularityXx1 votes

I dont know how I found this eitheR :D i was just running through the internet bored and found it and still believe me no matter how hard you try to see differences you will see minimum of them becuase you cannot see something you dont know about. I know you may not feel like that but trust me I was once like that as well. Often times I watch high elo games as well and I see no difference because i lack what is supposed to be that difference, but sometimes in a normal queue i get matched against one of these and there I see how much better they are from me. They play almost everything to perfection and bronze thats just a bad joke :P I as a low diamond player myself have recently won game 1v5. To be perfectly honest those player there are comparable to bots without offense thats just what I saw.

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

[{quoted}](name=El Cucuy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HiAJIWEk,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-08-02T16:15:40.727+0000)

I dont know how I found this eitheR :D i was just running through the internet bored and found it and still believe me no matter how hard you try to see differences you will see minimum of them becuase you cannot see something you dont know about.

LoL no this isn't the problem. As I indicated there are "minor" variations between the ranks.

This situation is like comparing strengths of some random country like France's Military vs USA: There is no comparison. Even challenger matches, if you watch them, are nothing compared to LCS games. The difference between Bronze/Challenger is incremental vs the difference with LCS. Like taking a small step vs going to the Moon. Massive distances in player coordination... even champion skill level. An exponential curve no doubt.

Even when LCS players play on Challenger... they usually at a skill far below their LCS tier. Even if you get a few of them on same team the same. Challenger is basically a glorified Bronze as far as LCS is concerned.

...Else there would be far more better players in LCS. Alas what I am getting at is basically that "anyone who isn't LCS-Tier is a noob" so therefore ranks don't matter. People want to live in a fantasy that Bronze-Challenger ranks "matter" then so be it... because in the end their are not as good as they think.

Indeed it is so...

xXSingularityXx1 votes

Mate but we are talking about solo q :D not LCS coordinated ranked teams. I just responded to you comparing bronze cs to Challenger cs becaues you know when bronze player plays against bronze player he can have 150 at 20 min and when he lanes against Challenger he may have none. Not sure why you talk about LCS tho. When you watch bronze vs bronze and Challenger vs Challenger you may find it similar, but when you play against them then you realize diffrences. Bronze/silver/gold these players barely have basics and thats it no matter how it looks. Also vision control isnt only support task :D it is task of all players only in low tiers people believe support should do all warding etc... People there do ilogical things and play like RNG doing stuff helter-skelter. Game is a lot more complex than you may think you know it is not just about csing, high elo players have all kinds of qualities you dont even know about. One of them may be for example psychology. They can easily recognize behaviour pattern of his teamates and act and play in their favor to make em feel more comfortable and confident and that is just one of bilions things these people do. If you wanna compare low elo and high elo games at least watch them with commentary so you know how specific players think, because just watching them will teach you nothing.

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

[{quoted}](name=El Cucuy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HiAJIWEk,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2015-08-02T19:34:56.379+0000)

Mate but we are talking about solo q :D not LCS coordinated ranked teams. I just responded to you comparing bronze cs to Challenger cs becaues you know when bronze player plays against bronze player he can have 150 at 20 min and when he lanes against Challenger he may have none.

Not sure why you talk about LCS tho.

Because this is all that matters. Bronze to Challenger is like a series of baby steps forward vs a massive leap around the world and back that is LCS. SoloQ is so far behind LCS that the difference between Bronze/Challenger is far closer then Challenger/LCS.

If we all strive to be the best... then comparing Bronze to Challenger players is irrelevant. The only comparisons that are indeed relevant and should be made is Bronze/Challenger vs LCS. These observations become apparent when comparing NA/EU to Asia... as even SoloQ "Bronze" as they say is even way above NA Challenger.

Therefore... what difference does it make between Bronze/Challenger when you are comparing Pre-School (Bronze) to Kindergarten (Challenger) when LCS is College lvl +? Saying "Challenger is soooo much better then then Bronze when Challenger is still a joke is pathetic at best. I guess you can say that at least they are "not as stupid as Bronze" but Challenger is still very stupid nonetheless. We should be trying to study "End Game LoL" and not "incremental tactics" that is the Tier System.

Indeed it is so...

xXSingularityXx2 votes

Challenger is indeed soo much better than bronze if you admit it or not. And again I told you not to involve LCS or ranked 5v5, we are both arguing about solo queue differences which are definetely huge between bronze and challenger player if you realize it or not, so please stop involving LCS and all kinds of bullshits. When you take one LCS player and one Challenger player they are pretty much similar in skill, thats why i told you not to involve coordinated strategic 5x5 teams since we are still talking about solo queue I dont know how to explain it to you but it seems like a dead end.

Cruk1 votes

You do realize that Phreak is diamond right? and spends endless hours of game-play analysis and thought to understand what is going on in games that he casts, it's his job, and he also gets behind the scene details on team strats and ideas. You dont have to be elite to understand what is happening, but being Elite lets you see things that normal players dont. I bet if you and i sat down and watched a match together, i would be able to point out more mistakes, and more good plays than you would.

If i laned against you, i would be able to see your mistakes a lot easier than you would be able to see mine. Its a difference of perspective, some people have more some people have less, practice helps.

TheGrandAlliance1 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that Phreak is diamond right?

Yes but Diamond isn't Challenger. By your own logic he "would not be able to understand Challenger+ playstyle" because "he is not of that level". That is complete bullshit. Therefore Phreak proves your logic wrong.

If i laned against you, i would be able to see your mistakes a lot easier than you would be able to see mine.

LoL no... I know my "mistakes" just fine thank you. More specially my inability to fucking last hit the minions with any degree of certainty/consistency (especially with mages) is my problem. Otherwise I have everything under control no doubt, including predicting/avoiding ganks (which is inevitable no doubt).

Of course since they just nuked my core solo lane champion Fiora I probably /epicfail now LoL but alas besides the point. That assumes I still play this game (which I don't) of course.

Indeed it is so...

Cruk1 votes

{quoted}

Yes but Diamond isn't Challenger. By your own logic he "would not be able to understand Challenger+ playstyle" because "he is not of that level". That is complete bullshit. Therefore Phreak proves your logic wrong.

LoL no... I know my "mistakes" just fine thank you. More specially my inability to fucking last hit the minions with any degree of certainty/consistency (especially with mages) is my problem. Otherwise I have everything under control no doubt, including predicting/avoiding ganks (which is inevitable no doubt).

Of course since they just nuked my core solo lane champion Fiora I probably /epicfail now LoL but alas besides the point. That assumes I still play this game (which I don't) of course.

Indeed it is so...

Im pretty sure this whole post has to be just one giant troll, nobody can deny that with practice you get better at something. You think what you like, but if you dont even play the game anymore, your opinion of the game doesnt matter to me or the community either, good day.

SEKAI1 votes

Please Explain the Difference Between Bronze-Challenger (SoloQ)

One is the Challenger at something else, and one is Challenger at LoL.

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