why is katarina allow to be good in 1v1 and teamfights?
title, what exactly is her weakness?
PLS DONT tell me its cc...it counters everyone
title, what exactly is her weakness?
PLS DONT tell me its cc...it counters everyone
Because half the time she isn't. When the situation favors her, you'd rather have her than say an Oriana, but when the situation doesn't favor her, you'd rather have the Oriana over her. She's either more useful than most other AP carries, or she's more useless than all other AP carries. This is natrually going to be the balanced outcome of a high risk high reward champion.
The only reason it seems like she's so good is because people tend to not notice the fights where she was underwhelming and didn't have an opening to get much done. Then they see a fight where she did get her opening and was able to take 3 people down in a few seconds and get this notion that she's really strong while not considering the previous situation that they dismissed because it didn't leave as much of an impact on them.
EDIT: To specifically answer your question, not dieing to her is your weakness. Obviously dieing is objectively bad to everyone, but dieing versus certain champions is worse than others. Most adcs can come out of lane with no kills and be useful. Most AP carries can come out of lane with no kills and be useful. Even most assassins can come out of lane with no kills and be useful. Katarina cannot come out of lane with no kills and be useful, not unless her team is already winning a 4v5 without her.
Katarina has damage gated by 2 things, her resourcelessness and her resets. Because of these things, she isn't allowed to have the damage potential most other assassins easily reach because her reset mechanic would be too powerful. So she has less damage to work with than a leblanc, or a zed, or a talon due to this. In addition, she also has no form of escape without getting her reset, where as the other assassins are usually helped out a little more through addition jumps, jump reverts, or invisibility. Because of all these factors, katarina without a reset is objectively the worst assassin in the game. But when she gets a reset, she becomes probably one of the best if not the best assassin in the game, because her damage just multiplies on itself.
But without that first kill, she is no where near good enough to compete with other assassins or AP carries. Your team has to decisively lose a 4v5 before katarina can do anything more than throw the occasional Q, and even that can be risky against a team with decent catch potential. So all your team has to do is have their carries position well, and katarina becomes an unviable pick because she can't get that first kills that holds back all her damage potential. This is why she isn't picked often in professional play; she is so reliant on the enemy team messing up, which doesn't happen as often at higher levels of play, that she is useless without it occurring. It's much better to take a champion that is useful in most scenarios, so they can always contribute something instead of being shutdown because the parameters weren't perfectly in their favor.
Also if a katarina is sweeping through your team killing everyone and getting resets, she's either already insanely fed, or any other ap carry would be doing just as well if they came in when the fight was practically over. If the carries are low enough to be one shot and the frontline is hurt from a 4v5, you think an ahri would ump in and clean that up? Of course she would, but for some reason when kat does the same thing, she's called overpowered because she gets resets along through the process. If her damage wasn't gated by resets, people would be A LOT more scared of kat.
high risk high reward champion.
The only reason it seems like she's so good is because people tend to not notice the fights where she was underwhelming and didn't have an opening to get much done. Then they see a fight where she did get her opening and was able to take 3 people down in a few seconds and get this notion that she's really strong while not considering the previous situation that they dismissed because it didn't leave as much of an impact on them.
54% win rate in diamond after her last nerf kek
implying diamonds are good lol.
No one takes soloqueue as seriously as competitive professional play where money is on the line. Not even challengers take optimal steps in reducing kat's potential.
Just look at how the pros play in challenger soloqueue games compared to how they play in the LCS or LPL. It's so stylistically different because in a real competition, they actually care. Kat is a trash pick at a high level of play and is only decent in soloqueue because people are disorganized and barely even try to change their playstyles to accommodate handling a snowballing enemy.
how dare you insult us Soloque gods. We diamonds stuck in silver/bronze know what we are doing! And Katarina is INDEED OP!
implying diamonds are good lol.
No one takes soloqueue as seriously as competitive professional play where money is on the line. Not even challengers take optimal steps in reducing kat's potential.
Just look at how the pros play in challenger soloqueue games compared to how they play in the LCS or LPL. It's so stylistically different because in a real competition, they actually care. Kat is a trash pick at a high level of play and is only decent in soloqueue because people are disorganized and barely even try to change their playstyles to accommodate handling a snowballing enemy.
You're not an LCS player.
No one in this thread is an LCS player.
Who gives a [i]shit[/i] about what is good in the LCS? We're not talking about the LCS, we are talking about Solo Q. And Katarina is very good there.
That said, I wasn't aware Katarina is a particularly good duelist. In fact, I can't recall ever being 1v1'd by a Kat who wasn't very far ahead. Too many champions can interrupt her ult (where most of her damage is), and some who can't (like Tryndamere) have ways to easily survive it and would proceed to murder the squishy Katarina.
That said, Kat is still good in Solo Q. I tried Kat when she was free. First time Kat. Got beaten up in lane by Cassiopiea. Then I proceeded to get the easiest triple kill I've ever gotten in a dragon fight.
Because guess what?
The enemy team isn't the only one with CC to lock people down. Once enemy CC was blown and some enemy champs were locked down, I E'd in and ulted. Killed the ADC, APC, and IIRC the top laner. Easy.
That's why she is good in Solo Q.
OP? Nah not really. I almost always beat Kat in lane, because I'm a jerkass who counter picks her with Cho.
But OP wasn't talking about Soloqueue, he was talking about the champion katarina. And I was giving an example of why she is scarcely picked in high level play. That isn't to say she isn't strong in soloqueue where people are less organized, but I was explaining why his statement was wrong that katarina is good in both teamfights and 1v1. Like you said, she really isn't good at the 1v1, especially compared to other assassins that both deal more damage and hare safer, like zed, akali, talon, leblanc.
Kat's only real potential is roam, she's shit at laning, she's below average at 1v1, and she's somewhat average at teamfighting; we don't need to be LCS players to see that. But we would need to be as good as LCS players if we were to call for nerfs, otherwise why would our opinions carry any weight.
But OP wasn't talking about Soloqueue, he was talking about the champion katarina. And I was giving an example of why she is scarcely picked in high level play. That isn't to say she isn't strong in soloqueue where people are less organized, but I was explaining why his statement was wrong that katarina is good in both teamfights and 1v1. Like you said, she really isn't good at the 1v1, especially compared to other assassins that both deal more damage and hare safer, like zed, akali, talon, leblanc.
Kat's only real potential is roam, she's shit at laning, she's below average at 1v1, and she's somewhat average at teamfighting; we don't need to be LCS players to see that. But we would need to be as good as LCS players if we were to call for nerfs, otherwise why would our opinions carry any weight.
The notion that Kat is "somewhat average" at teamfighting ignores the amount of damage she can pull out against a team with the press of a button. All the Kat player needs to do is ult at the right time, and she's scored a triple kill. Even when behind Kat can do this.
Also, her roams are so good at getting her ahead that they are basically all she needs.
All the Kat player needs to do is ult at the right time, and she's scored a triple kill. Even when behind Kat can do this...
When her opponents are bad
Also, her roams are so good at getting her ahead that they are basically all she needs...
When her opponents are bad
I finished your sentences for you
When her opponents are bad
When her opponents are bad
I finished your sentences for you
Players better than you have been killed by Katarina roaming or performing well in team fights. Otherwise she wouldn't have a solid win rate in Diamond.
Ya, because I'm not good, and neither are they. In fact, I'm one of the people who contributed to her win rate in diamond last season. And even then everyone I faced played the matchup terribly because they refuse to change their playstyle to fit different champions. People who lose to kat do so because they lack knowledge and experience in the matchup even diamond players (not that diamond players are good). Instead of gaining knowledge of the matchup or theorycrafting, they either complain about her, or ban her, or both.
Katarina is objectively one of the worst midlaners in the game in terms of laning phase. If I'm winning laning phase (not through roaming mind you, but actually laning) in diamond, then many diamond players clearly aren't good. Otherwise they would be winning laning phases, but they aren't, because they're bad and kat does well against bad players.
Ya, because I'm not good, and neither are they. In fact, I'm one of the people who contributed to her win rate in diamond last season. And even then everyone I faced played the matchup terribly because they refuse to change their playstyle to fit different champions. People who lose to kat do so because they lack knowledge and experience in the matchup even diamond players (not that diamond players are good). Instead of gaining knowledge of the matchup or theorycrafting, they either complain about her, or ban her, or both.
Katarina is objectively one of the worst midlaners in the game in terms of laning phase. If I'm winning laning phase (not through roaming mind you, but actually laning) in diamond, then many diamond players clearly aren't good. Otherwise they would be winning laning phases, but they aren't, because they're bad and kat does well against bad players.
So you agree that Kat is good in Solo Q, like I've been saying? Excellent.
I'd agree that her laning phase is pretty crap. Good thing her roaming is so good. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who has never lost lane to Katarina (at least, not as far as I can recall).
Just admit that the champ you play is good. It's easier than you think. I have no problem admitting Cho is strong.
So you agree that Kat is good in Solo Q, like I've been saying? Excellent.
I'd agree that her laning phase is pretty crap. Good thing her roaming is so good. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who has never lost lane to Katarina (at least, not as far as I can recall).
Just admit that the champ you play is good. It's easier than you think. I have no problem admitting Cho is strong.
I do, we've been on that same page for the last 3 replies. I can quote myself from 4 comments ago "But OP wasn't talking about Soloqueue, he was talking about the champion katarina."
None of my points are contained within soloqueue, they're in response to the original thread question "why is katarina allow to be good in 1v1 and teamfights? what exactly is her weakness".
I described why kat does well in soloqueue, why she is often perceived stronger than she is, and how to counter her. If diamond soloqueue players aren't good enough to do those things, it doesn't make my posts any less meaningful. Soloqueue and her strength in that medium is irrelevant to OP's question.
[{quoted}](name=Kariu Rena,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKsZYdtV,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-05-20T16:19:11.731+0000)
54% win rate in diamond after her last nerf kek
Lol I hate when people say the only reason people complain about her is because they're noobs who can't cc I didn't know diamond people were considered noobs
They are, diamonds are pretty awful compared to actual high level play. I got diamond last season and I'm pretty bad, but at least I know how to play against a katarina, which is apparently a rare trait.
why is katarina allow to be good in 1v1 and teamfights?
Most champions are good in 1v1 and teamfights to an extent, Kat isn't particularly amazing at either. Certain champions like
are notably better at both.
If she plays her cards right she can be game-changing, but the same goes for pretty much every tank, marksman, and mage in the game. Usually assassins and fighters are more terrible in team-fights than duels.
But most assassins and fighters will wreck Kat in a 1v1, just because she can beat some amaze-balls at team-fights mages in a 1v1 doesn't tell much about her 1v1 potential.
what exactly is her weakness?
Best way to describe this? Look at
.
Fiddlesticks has more range, very powerful CC, very powerful sustain, and can utilize
during the middle of his ultimate.
Kat also needs no less than 4 kills to allow her combo to do more damage than a perfect WER from the scarecrow.
Prior to her rework,
's rank 5 max-range Javelin also did more damage than a full combo of rank-5 QWE on Kat. Big difference there is Nid only needs level 9 for 1 rank5 spell, Kat needs level 18.
It's also worth noting most champions that rely on throwing themselves into the middle of an enemy team are either:
A) tanks
B) can use
and still do damage (see
).
Kat's weakness is that her optimal play-style is really tactically unsound. She excels when she kills people after throwing her squishy self into the middle of an enemy team. She fails when she throws her squishy self into the middle of the enemy team and what you'd expect to happen from that plan happens.
It's a very high-risk maneuver.
She doesn't have
in the midst of her combo, her mobility only comes back if she gets a kill, she's within striking distance of everything by everyone when using her skillset.
In a nutshell, this ^
TiensiNoAkuma, arguably the best Kat player in the world, hates match ups where he has to 1v1 simply because Kat doesn't excel at them at all. Someone like
will wreck her face every time because he just does so much damage while also getting to build tanky and having some nice CC in his kit.
Kat's damage is balanced around her getting to use it twice. A single QWE from Kat can't kill anything unless you fed her. And you can't use a reset to double-up on your damage in a 1v1 because you would need that extra damage in the first place just to get the reset. The reason Tiensi hates items like
or tanky builds on Kat is because playing it safe like that on Kat means you can't kill anyone, you can only set up assists or kill-steal from your teammates.
She's good at cleaning up team-fights. I'd like to see you try and use Kat to engage a team fight.
She's terrible at 1v1 since she has the lowest damage of pretty much any mid-laner without a reset. If you lose a 1v1 to a Kat that isn't completely fed then I don't know how to help you.
All wrong. It's not CC. It's smarts. Her greatest strength is the stupidity of players. Adcs thinking they can solo her (only really one ADC I can think of that can pull this off and that is Quinn). Teams tunnel visioning in a team fight while kat goes around back and pops in. Teams not being cautious etc. etc. Blah Blah.
All wrong. It's not CC. It's smarts. Her greatest strength is the stupidity of players. Adcs thinking they can solo her (only really one ADC I can think of that can pull this off and that is Quinn). Teams tunnel visioning in a team fight while kat goes around back and pops in. Teams not being cautious etc. etc. Blah Blah.
Actually, if vayne condemns her its insta death for kat
I'm going to tell you CC. Because being cc'd 1v1 sucks, but being cc'd in a teamfight is instant death to a squishy assassin who needs the resets.
That only happens when Kata jumps in first.
Or when someone (gasp) DOESN'T blow every CC ability the team has just to initiate!
And you really believe that doesn't happen in the solo queue?
God knows how many times I had to hold on the Moonfall entire teamfight, just because I knew the moment I'd use it, we had no CC to stop Kat.
And I'm suppose to be initiating with that.
Although CC is good against everyone, it has different levels of "good". CC is highly deadly for a Kat, and she puts her self in easily cc situations in team fights. Have one person save one cc for Kat, and now she explodes in team fights without getting her ulti off for more than .25 a second.
and she puts her self in easily cc situations in team fights.
this is soooo debatable that it destroys the entire discussion
[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKsZYdtV,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-05-20T16:27:37.005+0000)
this is soooo debatable that it destroys the entire discussion
I just mean that for her to get full use of her ulti she is going to be around your squishes. Can you agree with that, or am i speculating too much? There is no reason not to have a support near your caries with CC and enough peel to stop a kat ulti. Especially in the age of Naut, Morg, Annie, Thresh sups.
I just mean that for her to get full use of her ulti she is going to be around your squishes
as i said its debatable ... your squishies should be dead or too low to even come close to a teamfight so we can only speculate here
There is no reason not to have a support near your caries with CC and enough peel to stop a kat ulti
again debatable its a possibility that kat destroyed your squishies quite fast and the are low when support breaks her ult there is a posibility that cc has a delay to it there is a possibility that kats teammates are going in to save her or finish off your squishies and start the resets
in 5v1 scenario you can kill katarina as you want ... unless you lack cc... but in actual game, its all debatable becuase katarina is an one man army with a theoretical counterplay, backed by 4 teammates, everything can happen ut i think that its more likely for her to win than lose
There are a lot of champions like that. Vlad's another excellent example.
her weakness isnt cc realy its interrupting her ultimate right when she casts it, and killing her right at that moment, and thats gets done by the use of cc
thats why katarina is so hard to counter because you need both the interruption and follow up damage the interruption needs to be insanely well timed while follow up damage needs to kill her before cc wears off, otherwise zhonyas and your effort failed
this is why katarina is so powerfull realy, because she can decimate your team in split seconds unless you are set up perfectly to kill her in split seconds and even when you are, its katarina who goes in, and she will see that
so in the end her only weakness is you being lucky enough to kill her
[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKsZYdtV,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-05-20T16:34:55.031+0000)
her weakness isnt cc realy its interrupting her ultimate right when she casts it, and killing her right at that moment, and thats gets done by the use of cc
thats why katarina is so hard to counter because you need both the interruption and follow up damage the interruption needs to be insanely well timed while follow up damage needs to kill her before cc wears off, otherwise zhonyas and your effort failed
this is why katarina is so powerfull realy, because she can decimate your team in split seconds unless you are set up perfectly to kill her and even when you are, its katarina who goes in, and she will see that
so in the end her only weakness is you being lucky enough to kill her
this is what i mean. well kind of.
don't stand all lumped together in team fights. peel for ur carries. etc.
Her weakness is a single knock up/silence/stun/suppress/interrupt on the enemy team. That's literally it.
CC screws Kat more than others. CC a tank or bruiser and they are mildly inconvenienced. CC Kat and she's dead. One second is all a lot of champions need to kill her. More than one second is certain death since she can't afford to invest heavily in health/armor/MR unless she's absurdly overfed. And CC actually stops her ult. Compare with Kennen, Morgana, and Fiddlesticks whose ults can't be stopped once they're going unless you kill them but, conveniently for them, they can use Zhonya's DURING their ults.
cc doesn't counter olaf :P
the counter to olaf is picking olaf
How so?
I take Vlad and generally own her.
[{quoted}](name=Kariu Rena,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HKsZYdtV,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-20T15:38:06.113+0000)
PLS DONT tell me its cc...it counters everyone
"Guys, I need a counter to red burn decks, but don't tell me to use white life gain."
"Guys, I need a counter to Banelings, but don't tell me to use Banshees."
"Guys, I need a counter to Warlock burn, but don't tell me to use Priest."
If you need a counter, but you don't want the most obvious one, you might not be cut out for strategy games.
so you agree that katarina doesnt have a real weakness like other assassins beside the most obvious one that counters every single champ in the game? Good glad to know that you are on my side
I said "the most obvious one", referring to counters, quite clearly, even in bold text.
But, seeing that you aren't actually interested in discussion, or counter-play tips, explaining the difference would be a waste of my time. You can go back to looking for hive-minded fuckwads that don't ever get better at this game.