The real reason why ADC's are dominant this season.

OP Garen Support·Nov 3, 2017·20 votes·1,464 views

I noticed this season that I cant carry as a midlaner. I always win 1 vs 1, thats what Im best at(for my rank). I was platinum for 2 seasons spamming mages now only reached gold 3 and the reasons for that are:

-Mages and assassins dont their their job properly. Both Mage (-500 AP, lack of proper items) and Assassins(delay burst) damage was gutted meanwhile botlane Support and ADC items buffed.

-Even then it would be salvageable, but the junglers are so damn dominant as well, that you cant win if they decide to start camping in your bush for 10 minutes. The toxic catchup exp should be removed by next season. How can they be the same level as I if Im playing 1 vs 2? (that just plain unfair).

-We cant ward either since the wards got removed to speed up the game. It only effects top and mid, since botlane usually got a sightstone so they dont care.

-BOT is dominant because every other lane is restricted.

21 Comments

Critmaster GarenNov 3, 201716 votes

the real reason adc are strong, is because riot buffed adc and their items.

yes, indirect changes like assassin nerfs and enchanter buffs were playing into it, but do peopel forget, that adc got buffed with the assassin and tank update aswell?

in every update they gave adc some new toys along with the changes to the updated class. item 3026 anyone?

and the crit item buffs and zeal item price reductions? making rapid fire and shiv passives stack again when it was nerfed before because it was op shit?

the DIRECT buffs to adc at the start of the season, like a massive buff to Tristana q?

you dont need to look for excuses or indirect buffs to marksmen, when they were buffed directly multiple times for absolutely no rerason.

YaskamasandwichNov 3, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEgxyhdb,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-11-03T14:02:04.223+0000)

the real reason adc are strong, is because riot buffed adc and their items.

yes, indirect changes like assassin nerfs and enchanter buffs were playing into it, but do peopel forget, that adc got buffed with the assassin and tank update aswell?

in every update they gave adc some new toys along with the changes to the updated class. anyone?

and the crit item buffs and zeal item price reductions? making rapid fire and shiv passives stack again when it was nerfed before because it was op shit?

the DIRECT buffs to adc at the start of the season, like a massive buff to q?

you dont need to look for excuses or indirect buffs to marksmen, when they were buffed directly multiple times for absolutely no rerason.

^ In fact it goes farther than that. Marksmen have been receiving buffs ever since the Marksmen update in preseason 6. Nerfs were hardly ever given to them. This was a response to the Juggernaut update that pushed Marksmen out of the spot light. Riot wants Marksmen to be the primary carries time and time again due to constant nerfs to other roles, from Ziggs bot lane all the way to early game tanks like Poppy. Yes Poppy is early and mid game despite popular belief. Her CC is terrible late game since it is single target only. All she has is defensive stats which is purely useless vs any Marksmen at the late game. People are fed up with being forced to worship Marksmen but feels like Riot is forcing us to do that.

Painted CeltNov 3, 20178 votes

True enough and good post. By the way, as "Critmaster Garen" what do you think about the current juggernaut itemization?

Both Juggernauts and Marksmen are supposed to be carry classes whose primary role is to deal damage, and their main difference is their method of surviving in fights (tankiness versus range/kiting). In my opinion, a Juggernaut's tankiness should be an equal exchange for a Marksmen's range advantage, while the two classes should offer virtually identical lategame damage output assuming they are both able to reach their target for the same duration (obviously, range offers an advantage to accessing targets). It feels like a full-built Juggernaut deals considerably lower DPS than a full-built Marksmen due to the way that multiplicative scaling AD items work out when considering that a Juggernaut is intended to build roughly 50% defensive itemization. That doesn't seem right to me.

Juggernauts are supposed to use base/total AD scaling to separate their itemization from Marksmen. Crit itself scales with total AD, yet Juggernauts don't typically use crit items, and their crit itemization has been slowly removed from the game (Aatma's removal + Trinity Force loss of crit). Even Garen, who has both an auto-attack reset and crit-scaling on his E, does not build any crit in his meta build. I think that we need to bring back Juggernaut crit itemization, add more crit-scaling abilities like Garen's E to Juggernaut kits, and shift around the stats of Marksmen and Juggernauts to allow clearly defined distinct pools of appealing crit items for both classes.

In my opinion, the differences between the classes base stats should be emphasized: Juggernauts = MUCH higher base AD scaling, considerably lower base attack speed scaling, MUCH higher base health scaling, not ranged Marksmen = MUCH lower base AD scaling, considerably higher base attack speed scaling, ranged

Juggernauts should scale poorly with attack speed items due to extremely low base attack speed, however, they should have insanely high base-AD and should have access to auto-attack resets like item 3077 item active effects, Garen/Trundle/Yorick Q, and crit-scaling abilities like Garen E. Juggernauts should be encouraged to itemize crit without any attack speed, while Marksmen should need to build attack speed combined with crit to keep up with Juggernaut DPS. This should mean that Juggernauts get to build defensively with item slots not used on attack speed, while Marksmen should need to use all of their slots on damage items as a fair trade-off for them being ranged. A Juggernaut with: item 3111 item 3748 item 3053 item 3031 item 3078 item 3742 Should deal the same lategame DPS (assuming no kiting involved) as a Marksmen with: item 3006 item 3087 item 3094 item 3508 item 3153 The marksmen should absolutely need to rely on their ranged advantage combined with the protection of their teammates to compete with other carry classes.

Also, I think AD armor penetration items are overtuned. I don't think item 3035 items should be a core part of any champion's build. I think should be an item you build only if you are playing against armor-stacking tanks and your team comp/build is bad, without enough magic DPS. I think that there needs to be much more specific magic APC DPS itemization available. If you end up needing to build a item 3035 item 3135 to shred tanks because your team lacks mixed damage, you should be at a disadvantage in my opinion. Obviously, that change would require re-tuning of a lot of items and new items to be created. I think item 3071 is mostly fine as-is though, and its niche should be primarily an item you build if you are a fighter/juggernaut laning against a tank.

Critmaster GarenNov 3, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Painted Celt,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=HEgxyhdb,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2017-11-03T16:19:58.586+0000)

True enough and good post. By the way, as "Critmaster Garen" what do you think about the current juggernaut itemization?

Both Juggernauts and Marksmen are supposed to be carry classes whose primary role is to deal damage, and their main difference is their method of surviving in fights (tankiness versus range/kiting). In my opinion, a Juggernaut's tankiness should be an equal exchange for a Marksmen's range advantage, while the two classes should offer virtually identical lategame damage output assuming they are both able to reach their target for the same duration (obviously, range offers an advantage to accessing targets). It feels like a full-built Juggernaut deals considerably lower DPS than a full-built Marksmen due to the way that multiplicative scaling AD items work out when considering that a Juggernaut is intended to build roughly 50% defensive itemization. That doesn't seem right to me.

Juggernauts are supposed to use base/total AD scaling to separate their itemization from Marksmen. Crit itself scales with total AD, yet Juggernauts don't typically use crit items, and their crit itemization has been slowly removed from the game (Aatma's removal + Trinity Force loss of crit). Even Garen, who has both an auto-attack reset and crit-scaling on his E, does not build any crit in his meta build. I think that we need to bring back Juggernaut crit itemization, add more crit-scaling abilities like Garen's E to Juggernaut kits, and shift around the stats of Marksmen and Juggernauts to allow clearly defined distinct pools of appealing crit items for both classes.

In my opinion, the differences between the classes base stats should be emphasized: Juggernauts = MUCH higher base AD scaling, considerably lower base attack speed scaling, MUCH higher base health scaling, not ranged Marksmen = MUCH lower base AD scaling, considerably higher base attack speed scaling, ranged

Juggernauts should scale poorly with attack speed items due to extremely low base attack speed, however, they should have insanely high base-AD and should have access to auto-attack resets like item active effects, Garen/Trundle/Yorick Q, and crit-scaling abilities like Garen E. Juggernauts should be encouraged to itemize crit without any attack speed, while Marksmen should need to build attack speed combined with crit to keep up with Juggernaut DPS. This should mean that Juggernauts get to build defensively with item slots not used on attack speed, while Marksmen should need to use all of their slots on damage items as a fair trade-off for them being ranged. A Juggernaut with: Should deal the same lategame DPS (assuming no kiting involved) as a Marksmen with: The marksmen should absolutely need to rely on their ranged advantage combined with the protection of their teammates to compete with other carry classes.

couldnt have put it better. when it comes to lategame damage of juggernauts compared to marksmen, i just think marksmen deal too much damage compared to everybody else.

i mean theyre at a point where with a couple of items they can burst out assassins before the assassins can burst them. its not going to happen every time, but its happening too much.

it depends on the individual champion, but i think generally juggernaut lategame damage is fine compared to the game as a whole. i dont really have trouble carrying against tanks, assassins or most skirmishers with most juggernauts. its really just marksmen who are over the top.

as far as crit itemization goes, id love to see more options for brusiers. one option they have of adding crit customization to the game is the new rune system.

all they have to do is gate crit runes somehow that you dont walk with crit chance into lane at lvl 1. this is really the only thing riot doesnt want. but there would be no issue of adding a rune that grants crit chance at 10 minutes, or somehow gives you extra crit chance off the items youre buying (a reverse essence reaver rune? getting up to 20% crit chance off the cdr from items?).

if you could somehow get an extra 20% crit from runes with a juggernaut, this would already make item 3031 combined with that on its own an ideal offensive option for garen at the very least.

ULTRAF0RCENov 3, 20172 votes

I think part of what makes last whisper a core part is that with only a few exceptions the adc is to not die in a team fight which means that you want to play safe and attack the closest enemy which often is either an assassin, a bruiser or a tank and in two of those cases you want something to help kill them faster, sure Vayne and Kog should be the ones that do that job the best but most adcs aren't terrible at killing tanks with lw

Painted CeltNov 3, 20174 votes

[Note: The game can't be balanced like this until full AP DPS itemization is added.]

In my opinion, if a tank stacks armor, the job of killing him should fall to a mage (or one of the few existing magic damage on-hit champs) who should have magic DPS itemization available for this purpose. If a tank builds an equal amount of both armor and magic resistance, then item 3035 item 3135 should be just slightly more than break-even efficient against just the tank while being extremely inefficient against other squishy opponents.

This would make item 3035 item 3135 optimal in only two niche situations:

The enemy team is composed of mostly very tanky champions who are building mixed resistances.
The enemy has at least one champion who is stacking one type of resistance but your team composition is poor, lacking DPS carries for the other type of damage.

If you find yourself against 3 heavy tanks, then sure, you should be able to gain a statistical winrate advantage by building item 3035 item 3135 to punish the enemy team for picking such an imbalanced composition.

If you find yourself against an armor stacking tank as a full AD team and your AP teammate(s) refuse to build AP DPS items (these need to be added), you should be screwed for picking an imbalanced composition, but item 3035 should make you screwed slightly less.

In other situations, I think item 3035 item 3135 should be far from ideal and should put you behind by building them.

Like I mentioned, there need to be AP DPS items (which need to be clearly separate from burst itemization, just as crit/attack-speed dps items are distinct from lethality burst items) available before the game can be balanced like that though.

The steam lifeNov 4, 20171 votes

I mean I do think marksmen need their damage lowered but a massive net buff to jugggernauts is really not ideal. For 1. They really aren’t that bad like Darius having a 48.8% winrate d+ in a meta he does horribly in isn’t that bad and 2. Juggernauts are insanely easy to play so any buffs you give them would not only make them way too good at low elos, it also makes them way to strong on a forced objective like baron. If the other team jumped in to contest they would get straight up annihilated.

Edit: something I forgot to mention juggernauts usually have a good early game as opposed to adc so there would be no power trade off

Painted CeltNov 6, 20172 votes

[I didn't down-vote you, so please don't feel like I am attacking your opinion.]

I am mostly suggesting that Juggernauts be given a lategame power fantasy equivalent to Marksmen and for their stats to be shifted around to help define their itemization as separate from Marksmen/Skirmishers. Also, if Juggernauts are too easy to play, then further skill expression could be added. Reducing their attack speed scaling and buffing their base AD makes properly timing auto-attack-resets and casting abilities during auto-attack down-times more important to Juggernaut DPS, which coincidentally adds skill expression.

I disagree that Juggernauts even have a good early-game compared to Marksmen, since a skilled Marksmen can absolutely abuse a melee Juggernaut in laning due to Ranged champions having such a huge advantage at CS'ing. People take top-lane Marksmen, like Quinn , specificially to dominate immobile melee champions early-game.

Juggernauts tend to have a good early game versus other melee champions, but ranged champions tend to have a safe and potentially abusive early game against any melee champion. In a solo-lane with a Marksmen versus Juggernaut, the Juggernaut only starts to have an advantage mid-game if they haven't completely fallen behind in CS and they are able to survive tower-diving the Marksmen, but even then it often comes down to whichever laner is getting more help from their jungler. If the Marksmen has a tanky front-line jungler + support on his team, then he will still outscale the Juggernaut in lategame teamfights anyways, so the Juggernaut really only excels in certain cases during the mid-game or if the enemy team has no front-line...

The steam lifeNov 10, 20171 votes

Ok so it seems what your saying is that because juggernauts only weakness is working that they should get a buff. LIke dude the only counterplay as a melee against a juggernaut is to sit under tower. you think giving them buffs, which would make them even more toxic to play against would make them fair to any melee who has to fight them. Yes marksmen top counter juggernauts but if they didnt every juggernaut would have over a 60% winrate because there would be no way to stay out of range. Marksmen top pay for their lane advantage with being majorly squishy costing their team a tank and being very vulnerable to ganks. In addition juggernauts are still powerful late game because they essentially make diving an adc without teamwork impossible. If a darius is standing right next to a tristana how is a camille eve diana or any assasin gonna get through you.

Basically what im saying is juggernauts arent weak and the reason they dont have high winrates in plat+ is because they simply are poorly designed. They cannot be buffed without changing who they are and just in general they dont need buffs so like yeah.

HeresyHorusNov 4, 20171 votes

Wtf is that Jugg build ? ...

item 3812 item 3046 item 3071 item 3742 item 3111 item 3022

Fuk item 3078 item 3053 , they dont worth their gold.

item 3031 only on fighters with great mobility like Hecarim Renekton Riven .

item 3812 item 3046 should be core on ALL AD Champs with very few exceptions.

Painted CeltNov 6, 20171 votes

I was theory-crafting a DPS Juggernaut build in a world where they are balanced around huge base AD and terrible base AS growth, with an equivalent lategame DPS scaling to marksmen at equivalent full-build item costs. I know that build isn't ideal in the game as-is.

I was also theory-crafting where more Juggernaut kits allow crit for damage, considering that Juggernauts are supposed to benefit from base/total AD scaling and crit itself is total AD scaling. Garen is an example where it looks like Riot attempted that but didn't provide strong enough numbers to fully encourage it: Q + item 3748 active auto-reset + E crit-scaling; with the right numbers, this allows crit items without building attack speed.

So, in a world where Juggernauts have massive base AD and terrible attack speed growth, they wouldn't benefit from item 3046 the % attack speed as much as Marksmen and mobile Slayers/Skirmishers would, but the 50% Base AD on item 3053 would be fantastic for Juggernauts. As for, item 3078 maybe it wouldn't be efficient for Juggernauts unless tweaked to be more appealing for them. The 200% base AD Spellblade combined with massive base AD + seems like it could be appealing in a lot of cases though.

Perhaps, it could easily be made into a core item for champions that are between Juggernauts and other Fighters who scale decently with attack speed, such as Trundle Udyr , but Riot would need to decide if that's healthy and what they want. Likely full-on Juggernauts shouldn't be perfectly efficient with item 3078 but I am just theory-crafting for a hypothetical different game-balance in any case.

Hayaishi2Nov 3, 20177 votes

Jungle is the role that carries, bot lane wouldn't snowball nearly as bad if Jungle pressure wasnt so important

StairCasexdNov 3, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Jungle is the role that carries, bot lane wouldn't snowball nearly as bad if Jungle pressure wasnt so important

You could also carry from mid by snowballing the bot Lane, people like taliyah and Katarina do great jobs at roaming bot. Problem with the top Lane is that it doesn't have too much of an influence on not Lane, and you won't have a good time trying to carry if you're something like tank poppy.

SalronNov 3, 20174 votes

ADCs wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue if shit like Knight's Vow, Locket, and redemption weren't so strong

There are too many tools dedicated to protecting ADCs which makes it too hard for mages and assassins to do their jobs

LankPantsNov 4, 20172 votes

But then we'd be right back in a place where supports struggled to find an impact and it's not like those items are overwhelming when used on other classes.

ADCs should be tuned around the game, the game should not be tuned around them.

AhrisNov 3, 20172 votes

I noticed i carry games much harder playing champs other than ahri in the midlane.

Every other carry has so much more in their kit.

hhaavviikkNov 3, 20172 votes

*every season

AL000Nov 3, 20172 votes

sup and ad items are too strong compare to most ap and tank items. ;\

ThefrostyvikingNov 3, 20171 votes

I admit, games are hella hard to win if your botlane get's crushed, but i have actually managed to carry from the midlane a number of times as long as my bot went at least even or just slightly behind.

I´ve been lucky in that aspect, only recently did i lose a number of games because my bot was stomped x)

wildfox99Nov 3, 20171 votes

The toxic catchup exp should be removed by next season. How can they be the same level as I if Im playing 1 vs 2?

what if the XP get equally divided from the near units,and making supp items ( item 3303 - item 3301 - item 3302 ) give bunos XP if near an ally (giving it both to supp and ADC),so bot XP wouldn't change but if the enemy jungler starts to sit a solo lane will make your enemy fall behind as lvl

KhristophorosNov 4, 20171 votes

Maybe Riot did it on purpose so SKT would finally lose. They left the most broken ADC favored patch we've seen in years in place for Worlds. And SKT is carried so hard by their midlaner Faker.