Stop ruining the game by favouring ADC role

OP Garen Support··35 votes·2,541 views

Here are the reason why ADC focused meta is bad for the game and finally a few idea for solution :

  1. Forcing the support role

ADC as a class generates toxicity at all level of play. They require a slave(support) to be kept alive, locking down 2 people. People are forced to go support when they are auto-filled. Most of us dont like to play support with an inferior ADC who is worse then us. (either the adc is not as skilled, we do not have synergy, our style do not align, 1 of us have a bad game, we are bad support) . If any of these conditions meet the game is good as lost since it will result in a 3 vs 5 where the enemy botlane is fed. People will start arguing between each other loosing the game and they will carry their anger over to the next few games where they might be the new origin of toxicity. (they will have less patience toward others, they will tilt harder, throw harder, they might even do things they detest themselves). Forcing 1 person to a role so that the adc can have his fun is a toxic design.

  1. Meta is boring

ADC and Support are forced meta. It should be duo BOTLANE. Riot could easily implement a function to give equal gold to those in the same lane and they should pick or build whatever they want. I had so much fun with duo mage botlane with my friends. We easily dominated the adc+support "meta". League of Legends is a game, the most important thing is to have FUN. I do not have fun playing meta botlane.

Solution to make botlane appealing to people : Make a support item that gives the same amount of gold/exp that the NEARBY ally farms. (no more gold or exp starving). This item could have a fixed range so that other classes could not abuse it. (junglers)

This would also open up more interesting champion choices in botlane. ADC and SUPPORT role should be deleted overall instead should be the role called BOTLANE for 2 people.

  1. Items are nerfed favoring the ADC's

In the last couple of patches I noticed that every item that was focusing on AP or Tanks got nerfed to the ground meanwhile AD items got buffed.

item 3026 became an AD item only while it was a universal item used by other classes as well.

No multiple item 1056 for mages, meanwhile item 1055 still has its life steal passive. item 1054 nerfs because the ADC's buy it.

In the tank update almost every tank item got nerfed to the ground and AD items got buffed.

ADC players cry about dying in seconds while building full glass cannon, meanwhile the tanks die almost as fast while not building any damage.

item 3053 got nerfed to the ground because ranged champions built it.

Solution : simply make some items melee only and we need more items. (if you make a new item each season dont remove the old 1's the more variety the better)

  1. No counter play against ranged basic attacks

ADC players cry about dying against an AP carries full rotation of spells, meanwhile their auto attack deals more damage which cannot miss then the AP carries ultimate ability. The basic attack even follows people trough space and time after they flashed away. Basic attacks as a whole should not work as a rocket that follows you everywhere.

Solution : Remove the point and click basic attack on ranged champions, instead introduce the system of Smite where basic attacks travel far but only in the direction the marksman/ADC attacked. This way basic attacks would finally have counter play. (and they could be adjusted properly in damage as compensation)

  1. Pro play is boring and predictable

With these changes in the Meta(or deletion of it) would make new combination of champions be played other then the same old combos.

What do you guys think? [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

57 Comments

Big Lincoln7 votes

i agree they should favor juggernaut role

Power Cosmic5 votes

Protect the ADC comps are boring to play with and against unless you are the ADC. Marksman being strong in solo lanes means their mobility needs nerf bc carries shouldn't be strong and safe early.

Vallalan4 votes

adcs aren't the reason there is a support.

the fact is its just more efficient to have 3 carries and a jungler with one champion not having a gold income rather than 2 carries, a jungler, and 1/2 carry + 1/2 carry.

you'd basically have two champions who are behind and useless rather than one who does a lot compared to the enemy team that ran a support.

the meta is what it is because it works.

as for adcs being mandatory I'd argue we are a lot closer to diverse bot lane options. we are still far from being able to pick any champion in bot, but its not what it used to be when I First started playing.

now a days you got shiptur bringing out Ziggs bot, and from what I've heard a wild ap sona plays sona in the bot lane to much success even in challenger. mordekaiser STILL works bot lane and isn't broken anymore. thats only 3 champions, but we're getting closer.

Marksman are simply so valued because their late game is a safety net and insurance for you if you get there and they take objectives super fast.

I mean you can play without an adc but you better be good and know how to close out the game on them quick as well as having someone with sustained dps to take down baron/drag/towers. or have a way to take towers quick at the very least (like ziggs!)

Erockandroll2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charlie Loves U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Euwc3FXt,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-06-06T08:51:19.890+0000)

adcs aren't the reason there is a support.

the fact is its just more efficient to have 3 carries and a jungler with one champion not having a gold income rather than 2 carries, a jungler, and 1/2 carry + 1/2 carry.

you'd basically have two champions who are behind and useless rather than one who does a lot compared to the enemy team that ran a support.

the meta is what it is because it works.

as for adcs being mandatory I'd argue we are a lot closer to diverse bot lane options. we are still far from being able to pick any champion in bot, but its not what it used to be when I First started playing.

now a days you got shiptur bringing out Ziggs bot, and from what I've heard a wild ap sona plays sona in the bot lane to much success even in challenger. mordekaiser STILL works bot lane and isn't broken anymore. thats only 3 champions, but we're getting closer.

Marksman are simply so valued because their late game is a safety net and insurance for you if you get there and they take objectives super fast.

I mean you can play without an adc but you better be good and know how to close out the game on them quick as well as having someone with sustained dps to take down baron/drag/towers. or have a way to take towers quick at the very least (like ziggs!)

I mean, the closest thing we have to a Half carry and Half carry, is if both duo laners bought Relic shield. That would leave the support (ish) champion a lot more gold. Though so far, mord is the only melee alternative in the bot lane.

And part of the reason the carry and support combo even works, is because the support, isn't even item dependent. (Or at least shouldn't be) They rely on the utility their abilities offer, with out much need for scaling.

But for a bit of theory crafting, if your looking for an alternate bot laner. Try someone who has synergy with multiple targets, (Imagine anyone you would hate to face in ARAM) something that can do more damage with multiple targets. Perhaps someone already used as a support mage. (Thinking Brand in particular)

OP Garen Support3 votes

Solution to make botlane appealing to people : Make a support item that gives the same amount of gold/exp that the NEARBY ally farms. (no more gold or exp starving). This item could have a fixed range so that other classes could not abuse it. (junglers) . Basically 1 lane produces double gold and it is shared fifty-fifty between the targets.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

Solution to make botlane appealing to people : Make a support item that gives the same amount of gold/exp that the NEARBY ally farms. (no more gold or exp starving). This item could have a fixed range so that other classes could not abuse it. (junglers) . Basically 1 lane produces double gold and it is shared fifty-fifty between the targets.

I can think of at least 3 problems with that.

For starters, You start to become that much more dependent on your ADC. (Assuming this item discourages farming in some way) And honestly as a support, it sucks when your success is determined by how well the ADC Farms. To a certain extent, that item could be interchangable with either role, or maybe both will pick up such an item, if it allows either class to benefit from the other CSing.

The second issue is it's duo lane synergy. You mention it in a sense that Junglers can't abuse it. But will we even have Junglers if a duo lane can produce solo lane gold for both parties? The reason we have a dedicated Jungler is the same reason we have a support. Because it's the next best option for dividing the team's resources. But if such an item is available, it may just be best to have a duo top lane. Such a duo laner might still take smite for the neutral objective control later on, but ultimately would have more gold and xp being a duo laner.

And the third issue would be how the item works itself. If you make a single item allow you to leech gold XP from somebodies farm. What if a third person had the same item? You could very well end up with a 3 man bot lane if you don't work that out exactly right. Or maybe later on in the game, you have two plus people farming the same lane, (such as in a push situation) Who's gold do you get? Do you get both their gold?

Just buy an large, there are too many factors. And the very nature of such an item would completely shake up the meta.

OP Garen Support2 votes

Good point on the 3 people botlane. Well the item could function like the kallista passive item. You choose who to join up with. If your joined partner goes afk well you can still do solo farming on your own. Resulting in duo toplane would this be such a bad thing? (it would broaden the possibilities). On my opinion junglers exist to gank and take dragons/baron/rift herald.

Truly Prideful4 votes

You do realize even if there weren't ADCs there would still likely be supports right? There are still only 3 lanes and a jungle so it would still be most efficient to have a low income class in favor of a strong carry. You get rid of ADCs, pros will just put mages down there or something and everyone will bitch about the same thing but with a different class of champions.

Rainfall2 votes

there was a time in league of legends when you could play an apc as a support and it was cool for everyone,then riot released the absurdly broken locket and redemption,now if you dont sit behind an adc all game and dont rush these 2 items youre garbage.

BarbaJhini1 votes

maybe it was cool for supports xd do you need to remember malzahar cheesing in the bush solo killing both enemy adc and support alone? not to mention that zyra and brand are still perfectly viable.

BarbaJhini2 votes

Alright this might be quite long.

  1. Make a support item that gives the same amount of gold/exp that the NEARBY ally farms.

If u actually do something like this:

  1. none is ever going to pick supports as the entire kit and items in the shop for these champions are based on the fact that they gain lessgold 2)the meta would be even more botlane focused as 1 person getting fed automatically becomes like having 2 3)none would play adc as without having a support to keep them alive it would just be better to play other things such as mages, the lack of adc would also lead to a lack of assassins as there are less target to assassinate. there are many more consequences but to not make this too long i'll go straight to the enxt.
  1. Items are nerfed favoring the ADC's

item 3026 Riot said that having item 3026 + item 3157 on ap was unhealty for the game as that would mean 6 second statys and the item was generally too good on tanks and not for ADC (which are the one supposed to build the item) and this led to fight being too long and boring with unkillable tanks

item 1056 is getting nerfed because tanks abuse passive stacking to clear waves endlessly without having mana issues, and this is surely not what tanks are supposed to do, item 1055 is not getting nerfed because the stacking of those is rare and it never happens on adc, (sometimes jayce fiora or some other top laner can buy 2 of those), item 1054 "is getting nerfed because ADC are using it" denies completely the affirmation that items are nerfed to help adc. The nerf on item 1054 is required as it's kinda too strong and everybody can have a too easy and risk free laning phase.

In the tank update almost every tank item got nerfed to the ground and AD items got buffed. 1)Giving more armor and less hp is not a nerf in favour of ADC it just helps mage bursting down tanks as generally everyone builds more armor than magic resist 2)item 3143 + item 3047 reduces 30% of the incoming damage by critting autoattacks not to mention the 90 armor. 3)item 3071 item 3036 item 3033 and armor pen in masteries decreased.

item 3053 Got changed to not allow ADC building it as now it scales with bonus hp (that no adc buy item 3071 aside) and there again this goes against ur affirmation.

Solution : simply make some items melee only and we need more items. item 3074 item 3748 Are great options allowed to melee only and item 3022 item 3124 and Fervor works better with melee.

ADC players cry about dying against an AP carries full rotation of spells, meanwhile their auto attack deals more damage which cannot miss

  1. The class itself is designed so that in late game the sustained damage outlcass any other kind of damage, this is why you generally focus Ashe over Annie because even if Annie has an higher burst the one that will destroy your whole team if given time is Ashe .

Remove the point and click basic attack on ranged champions, instead introduce the system of Smite where basic attacks travel far but only in the direction the marksman/ADC attacked.

1)Would u really want to see basic attacks flying from that far hitting in fog of war and being kited from 25 miles by Ashe slowing you with every auto landing, and every ranged champion would build item 3022 as that would make u uncatchable? 2)Not to mention this would radically change the game. 3) think it as you want but it's a well known fact that on a pure mechanical level adc is probably the most difficult role.

NiamhNyx1 votes

{quoted}

Here are the reason why ADC focused meta is bad for the game and finally a few idea for solution :

  1. Forcing the support role

ADC as a class generates toxicity at all level of play. They require a slave(support) to be kept alive, locking down 2 people. People are forced to go support when they are auto-filled. Most of us dont like to play support with an inferior ADC who is worse then us. (either the adc is not as skilled, we do not have synergy, our style do not align, 1 of us have a bad game, we are bad support) . If any of these conditions meet the game is good as lost since it will result in a 3 vs 5 where the enemy botlane is fed. People will start arguing between each other loosing the game and they will carry their anger over to the next few games where they might be the new origin of toxicity. (they will have less patience toward others, they will tilt harder, throw harder, they might even do things they detest themselves). Forcing 1 person to a role so that the adc can have his fun is a toxic design.

  1. Meta is boring

ADC and Support are forced meta. It should be duo BOTLANE. Riot could easily implement a function to give equal gold to those in the same lane and they should pick or build whatever they want. I had so much fun with duo mage botlane with my friends. We easily dominated the adc+support "meta". League of Legends is a game, the most important thing is to have FUN. I do not have fun playing meta botlane.

Solution to make botlane appealing to people : Make a support item that gives the same amount of gold/exp that the NEARBY ally farms. (no more gold or exp starving). This item could have a fixed range so that other classes could not abuse it. (junglers)

This would also open up more interesting champion choices in botlane. ADC and SUPPORT role should be deleted overall instead should be the role called BOTLANE for 2 people.

  1. Items are nerfed favoring the ADC's

In the last couple of patches I noticed that every item that was focusing on AP or Tanks got nerfed to the ground meanwhile AD items got buffed.

item 3026 became an AD item only while it was a universal item used by other classes as well.

No multiple item 1056 for mages, meanwhile item 1055 still has its life steal passive. item 1054 nerfs because the ADC's buy it.

In the tank update almost every tank item got nerfed to the ground and AD items got buffed.

ADC players cry about dying in seconds while building full glass cannon, meanwhile the tanks die almost as fast while not building any damage.

item 3053 got nerfed to the ground because ranged champions built it.

Solution : simply make some items melee only and we need more items. (if you make a new item each season dont remove the old 1's the more variety the better)

  1. No counter play against ranged basic attacks

ADC players cry about dying about dying against an AP carries full rotation of spells, meanwhile their auto attack deals more damage which cannot miss then the AP carries ultimate ability. The basic attack even follows people trough space and time after they flashed away. Basic attacks as a whole should not work as a rocket that follows you everywhere.

Solution : Remove the point and click basic attack on ranged champions, instead introduce the system of Smite where basic attacks travel far but only in the direction the marksman/ADC attacked. This way basic attacks would finally have counter play. (and they could be adjusted properly in damage as compensation)

  1. Pro play is boring and predictable

With these changes in the Meta(or deletion of it) would make new combination of champions be played other then the same old combos.

lotta 1st reasons there buddy.

OP Garen Support5 votes

Well that is not my fault the boards automatically changes the other numbers to 1.

NiamhNyx1 votes

{quoted}

Well that is not my fault the boards automatically changes the other numbers to 1.

suuure.

1zseni4 votes

Not giving anything meaningful to the discussion only arguing about the boards function :D Autistic screeching

Yaśuo Main2 votes

Watch this

something

something

something

http://orig08.deviantart.net/1b78/f/2017/157/6/b/capturegr_by_leagueofragers-dbbqltg.png

Obviously the boards dont' function right sometimes.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Use \ before the number to escape that functionality.

Alternatively, use another format such as [1].

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Good sir, i have read through your arguments somewhat and i wish to object to some things.

First off,item 3053 .

You claim that this item was nerfed because ADC´s were using it, i´d argue that it was made for them, even if riot did not realize it at first which was the issue.

It was cheap, had a low CD and gave both health and AD.

It also made it extremely hard to burst whoever had it on them, which is pretty much the wet dream of any ADC hence it was like custom made for the marksmen of league who were made to be vulnerable to burst.

Then item 1054 .

This item's effect is so simple really, it negates poke, mainly early on.

When does ADC's struggle? Early game and one of the main predators currently are poke supports and some marksmen like Caitlyn or Draven.

This shield negates a lot of that and makes laning nice and comfortable.

Another item was like custom made for marksmen.

Then item 3026 , the item reworked because marksmen just die instantly anyway, this is the one case i´d argue was a bad move on riot´s part because mages used it too.

But item 3053 was buffed for those who build a lot of health and item 3102 became mandatory for long range mages it kinda ends up alright albeit debatable.

And no amount of Dorans swords or shields will make a marksman capable of dealing with a mage that has a nigh infinite amount of mana from items worth 1,2 k gold. Many mages and tanks just bough those and then mindlessly shoved lane. A single ability would deal 150 damage or more while being spammed against a target with 1 k health.

This was mainly a thing toplane for tanks like galio that were able to mindlessly shove and push lane because there was no way to counter this.

Thus nerfs were needed to open up the lane again.

Meanwhile the marksmen even with 3 dorans swords heal like.....10-20 health per hit. While taking 200dmg hits constantly.

And then on to your statement that marksmen are the more toxic players.

Dude.

Toxicity exists on all levels and roles of league, the only ones that are rarely toxic are the support mains (bless them). If you have seen more toxic ADC's then that's probably just RNG at work, i´ve seen it from everywhere.

Disclaimer, i play all roles, i have over 12 champs at lvl 7. With 2 of them being marksmen, 1 support and the rest as mages and fighters.

Finally, you wish to remove targeted ranged auto attackers, this would effetively remove 30 something champs from league and result in a sluggerfeast of melee and mages just bashing oneanother and then you would most likely start hating mages too.

Then you would want the mages removed, because they can kite and make it too hard to siege towers for your tanks and fighters.

This what you are suggesting for the long term, this would kill diversity more than anything.

###TL.DR:

Removing around 30 ranged AA reliant champs because you dislike them for the sake of "diversity" is not really a great idea. And turning this game into one were we essentially have fighters and mages which would be the two remaining strong roles after ranged AA champs are gone because assassins need squishy targets and mages don't need support.

With marksmen gone, supports would also gradually disappear with a few exceptions and then assassins would be pointless too since all the mages would just copy the old marksmen style of stacking the available defensive items and just mindlessly farm and wait for a time when the assassins are too weak to do anything and get a free win of it.

Then the people who hates ranged champs would petition to have mages removed, particularly the long range and the point and click spells or the easy to land ones. Leaving us with tanks and fighters.

Oh and any mages with waveclear would also have to go.

Then the sneaky ninjas and backstabbers of league would cease to work, because assassins wont' work if the other team has a ton of beefy melee busters, this is a cycle that would kill diversity harder than anything else.

Go and play for honor if you have such a boner for melee combat :(

Ralanr13 votes

Steraks was not designed for ADCs. ADCs do not benefit from base AD like juggernauts or fighters would. ADCs were primarily building it because of the burst shield (and were combining it with maw). If Riot wanted it to stay for ADCs, then they would have changed the item to fit them. And it being cheap was so that fighters and juggernauts could get their items faster as durability tends to fall off so they spike earlier.

As for shield negating poke, it was originally for champions who had little ability to fight back. I'm talking Garen vs Teemo. Marksmen already get Doran's blade for early lifesteal and offensive power, but now they are getting by with shield which seems to be helping their life regen more because of their lower health pools. Making it much harder to punish their lanes.

Ahristocats3 votes

i already said it multiple time but

doran shield was bought on adcs for years before it was trashed so saying that doran shield was intended to little fight back champions and then saying that it's not intended for adcs is incredibly dumb

how is lifesteal from doran blade will help you against urgot? yes, when urgot was broken in early s2 adcs took doran shield against him

you have early game marksmen with no lane presence at all, them taking doran shield is completly intended

Ralanr3 votes

Though doesn't that mean late game marksmen are much less punishable in laning?

Ahristocats4 votes

late game marksmen aren't meant to be killed 6 times in lane late game marksmen are just meant to not do anything in early game

then if those late game marksmen have no counterplay in late game like twitch and kog, it's not doran shield fault

Dreadlocks1 votes

The game has evolved my friend, and Adcs should still be able to use dorans shield but at a cost.. Now they get very little drawbacks due to the passive regen for taking damage, 5 on hit and an extra pot..perhaps dblade just needs an ad buff

Ahristocats4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Euwc3FXt,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2017-06-06T13:51:48.079+0000)

The game has evolved my friend, and Adcs should still be able to use dorans shield but at a cost..

the cost is giving up the AD from doran blade

Dreadlocks2 votes

Which clearly isnt enough if most lcs players are going shield.. I even saw it on a caitlyn.. Thats kind of a red flag to me.

Ahristocats5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Euwc3FXt,comment-id=000300000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-06-06T13:57:25.483+0000)

Which clearly isnt enough if most lcs players are going shield.. I even saw it on a caitlyn..

not enough for what? building doran shield means you want to survive the lane, that's all i don't see why more discussions are needed

botlane also revolves around poke right now instead of all-in doran shield is extremely strong against poke and extremely weak against all in

it doesn't give armor or what so ever, it doesn't block 8 damage like before

Dreadlocks1 votes

They both give 80 hp so how can u justify dblade being that much better vs all ins? Dshield at least gives you 2 pots.. Dblade u have to be in a position to auto attack all the time to make equal to what dshield gets for just taking dmg and being cheaper...

Im not saying dshield rly needs a huge nerf either but if its outclassing even dblade in bot lane, 1 of the 2 need tuning..

BarbaJhini1 votes

1)Dshield at least gives you 2 pots.. having 2 pots is almost useless in all ins as those do not last 20 seconds. 2)They both give 80 hp so how can u justify dblade being that much better vs all ins? dblae gives 8 ad that boost your damage on autoattacks and abilities by a considerable amount as base ad is around 80 and the 3% life steal will do more than 2 healt regen 3)Dblade u have to be in a position to auto attack all the time to make equal to what dshield gets for just taking dmg and being cheaper... this is why he said that against poke is better dshield because u regen a lot of that poke... 4)Dshield is getting nerfed next patch becoming a 450 gold item

Ralanr1 votes

Huh. Honestly thought he was being sarcastic.

Welp, guess I'll admit I'm wrong there.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

{quoted}

Steraks was not designed for ADCs. ADCs do not benefit from base AD like juggernauts or fighters would. ADCs were primarily building it because of the burst shield (and were combining it with maw). If Riot wanted it to stay for ADCs, then they would have changed the item to fit them. And it being cheap was so that fighters and juggernauts could get their items faster as durability tends to fall off so they spike earlier.

It was not intentional which i wrote, but just looking at the effects and anyone would have known it might as well have been.

It was essentially a cheaper and better version of GA, doesn't take a genius to know the marksmen would all jump at it.

As for shield negating poke, it was originally for champions who had little ability to fight back. I'm talking Garen vs Teemo. Marksmen already get Doran's blade for early lifesteal and offensive power, but now they are getting by with shield which seems to be helping their life regen more because of their lower health pools. Making it much harder to punish their lanes.

The issue here is that Dorans blade actually sucks against sustained poke, any mage support will make quick work of a marksman thinking that healing with auto´s is a good idea.

Not to mention it's like 5 health per auto.

Meanwhile item 1054 gives the same amount of health, HP regen for the points when you can't go near minions.

More damage to minions, even a little helps.

Then the health for taking damage, the perfect counter to poke.

Any ADC will struggle against a AP support mage or a enhancer like lulu, karma or Sona.

Because they poke endlessly and slowly wear the ADC down, which is only made worse by any caitlyn or Draven or who else poking.

Which is beautifully solved by the shield, if you constantly take just a little damage then this shield is worth several health potions, you can save tons of gold and exp with it.

Do you really think Riot would not have though about marksmen using it when they made it this way?

An item that just conveniently counters poke which half the marksmen are made unplayable by?

I shall attempt to write out my thoughts clearly.

It's simply utterly, completely and absolutely impossible in any and all worlds that Riot did not understand that marksmen would use the shield when it was made to be like that. There is just no way in heaven or hell.

Ralanr3 votes

I have already admitted that I was wrong on shield.

As for Steraks, yes it highly benefited ADCs more than it harmed them. This is honestly a problem I have whenever ADCs start building bruiser items, the negatives just don't feel obvious. They don't seem to lack damage and now they have attained extra durability.

Melee champion need that durability because they are going to be taking damage in every fight they enter. ADCs have the range and kiting ability to avoid taking damage in fights, hence why they are encouraged to go glass Cannon. The moment they start functioning with bruiser items they become much more frustrating to fight as they better survive their weakness (dealing with people who catch them) without making a noticeable trade off.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

I have already admitted that I was wrong on shield.

As for Steraks, yes it highly benefited ADCs more than it harmed them. This is honestly a problem I have whenever ADCs start building bruiser items, the negatives just don't feel obvious. They don't seem to lack damage and now they have attained extra durability.

The one item i can remember being truly abused (at least for a time) was item 3071 . But this was more because the item is really powerful more than anything.

And when playing a ADC there are two things that truly feel awful, the first being not dealing any damage.

But this is rarely a problem unless strong tanks are in play against a ADC that isn't specialized.

The second is being instantly deleted with 0 chance of doing anything.

This is probably the worst feeling ever, the marksman trying to approach a teamfight and then suddenly a Zed, fizz, kassa, zac or lee etc just jump ontop of you and damn near instantly kill or send you off to die moments later.

With you having gotten 1-2 shots off.

This is why those who main marksmen are so obsessed with defensive items, because they and the rest of us that also play marksmen absolutely want to avoid dying so quickly because of matters we can't control.

Melee champion need that durability because they are going to be taking damage in every fight they enter. ADCs have the range and kiting ability to avoid taking damage in fights, hence why they are encouraged to go glass Cannon. The moment they start functioning with bruiser items they become much more frustrating to fight as they better survive their weakness (dealing with people who catch them) without making a noticeable trade off.

With sterak this was truly the case, it was so powerful that with the sterak for protection the ADC was essentially pefected as a champion. Damage, durability, sustain and range.

Altho is was unintentional so it was patched, but still it's silly that it got though play testing.

And honestly.

Just a few hours ago i played Cait, on the other team there was a galio who kept diving me.

At one point we were both a alone, i shot at him more than 10 times and i barely got a third of his health.

I didn't take any damage either though, not until enemy vel koz ulted and killed me from outside my range, and this wasn't the first time that had happened.

Every time vel Q-R'd and hit me i would die next to a half a second later, it was incredibility frustrating but i wrote it off as bad positioning on my part of being hit.

And in every fight i stood there auto attacking galio and a enemy wukong, and while i could deal with wukong i couldnt do anything about galio at all.

But i though it was simply because Cait is bad at dealing with tanks.

Then i tried thinking of a ADC that might have been better, but i came to a realization.

That no ADC would have been much better, because all the tank killing specialist ADC's are extremely lategame focused and are utterly terrible at surviving early-midgame without a support like lulu.

I started remembering why i found ADC to be such a frustrating role to play :(

Ralanr3 votes

Believe me, I understand how frustrating ADC is to play. I tend to play squishy immobile marksmen when I get stuck in the role. But when I play adc, I am not obsessed with defensive options. I am obsessed with not dying while doing damage.

ADCs are frankly supposed to die easily, hence why they are given a support to protect them while they farm up. Hence why they are given peel priority in teamfights (in theory because I've seen enough "supports" chase down a low health target while the assassin bends me over). They need protection, that's why we need to guard them.

The moment ADCs start needing that less is when the start to become overbearing. Suddenly we have assassins who can't kill a lone wandering adc because they are too durable for their combo. Or we have teamfights where the adc survives a successful flank from the backline all because of an item shielding them.

The moment you remove the main weakness of the adc you get a bunch of bullshit. ADCs mains will often claim how "we're finally good" or something like that, when in reality they are becoming oppressive.

The adc needs their team to survive. Remove that weakness and you have a high damage, ranged, and unkitable monster.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

Believe me, I understand how frustrating ADC is to play. I tend to play squishy immobile marksmen when I get stuck in the role. But when I play adc, I am not obsessed with defensive options. I am obsessed with not dying while doing damage.

This is actually something i´ve found interesting at times, the squishy and immobile ones are the best at dealing damage and tend of offer the most utility....or just a ton of damage.

But they all suck so hard against assassins and divers it's pitiful :( I used to main Ashe but it's become increasingly difficult to just not feed like hell.

ADCs are frankly supposed to die easily, hence why they are given a support to protect them while they farm up. Hence why they are given peel priority in teamfights (in theory because I've seen enough "supports" chase down a low health target while the assassin bends me over). They need protection, that's why we need to guard them.

It´s not fun to die instantly, and frankly it´s possible that the marksman being so dependent on the support cripples both of them.

Except for times when they together become monstrously strong.

The moment ADCs start needing that less is when the start to become overbearing. Suddenly we have assassins who can't kill a lone wandering adc because they are too durable for their combo. Or we have teamfights where the adc survives a successful flank from the backline all because of an item shielding them.

Yeah, in these times there are plenty of items that supports can build that make it hard to kill the ADC, not to mention boost the effectiveness of shields and heals and more. I play support too so i know just how strong these items are.

The moment you remove the main weakness of the adc you get a bunch of bullshit. ADCs mains will often claim how "we're finally good" or something like that, when in reality they are becoming oppressive. The adc needs their team to survive. Remove that weakness and you have a high damage, ranged, and unkitable monster.

This i will argee to, and it's also one of the reasons i find myself sad about the role.

ADC's tend to only have 3 states, godly or garbage, sometimes mediocre.

Rarely are they just flat out good but not too much.

But then again, people have started saying that Orianna is the games most OP mage for DPS,burst, zoning and utility and here i thought she was balanced so....what do i know?

Iźuku Midoriya1 votes

if they made dorans shield only able to be purchased by melee champs, i think that would stop alot of the problems

OP Garen Support6 votes

You make some good points but you only focus on what you want to understand from what I wrote and dont see it as a whole. I dont mean adc players are toxic what I mean is forcing people to go support so adc's can have fun is toxic.

This item item 3053 came with the juggernaut update for juggernauts. The fact that it fixed the only weakness of ADC's being squishy is riot fault for nothing implementing melee only.

Punishing mages every patch possible and not implementing anything in exchange is not right. (Im biased a bit though toward mages since I like them more)

removing and modifying is 2 totally different things.

Giving better range to ADC's makes them stronger in the right hand then the current braindead rick-clicked and got easy kills. While they can miss they can also kill enemies before they can harm them.

Riot's idea of implementing ammunition like Graves Jhin has is more interesting and offers counterplay.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

{quoted}

You make some good points but you only focus on what you want to understand from what I wrote and dont see it as a whole. I dont mean adc players are toxic what I mean is forcing people to go support so adc's can have fun is toxic.

This item item 3053 came with the juggernaut update for juggernauts. The fact that it fixed the only weakness of ADC's being squishy is riot fault for nothing implementing melee only.

if they felt that was a good and simple solution they would have patched it thus, but they did not which ought to be something to consider.

Instead they made it so that only those that build bonus health can use it and it gradually get's better.

This implies simply that they mainly want tanks and juggernauts to build it, and they felt that it's early game was too strong. With these two assumptions in mind the changes make perfect sense.

Punishing mages every patch possible and not implementing anything in exchange is not right. (Im biased a bit though toward mages since I like them more)

And despite this mages are still among the most played classes across all elos.

They were nerfed because they were strong, not because Riot felt like bashing mages for the sake of it, even now most mages are still very strong but thankfully most are not overly so.

Now it seems that it's just tanks lagging behind a bit in general winrates.

Then. as far as i understand the main weakness of mages are divers and skirmishers, meanwhile those classes are vulnerable to strong DPS.

I have no idea how many mages would have to be reworked and how much for mages to be able to handle that if marksmen were to be patched away.

removing and modifying is 2 totally different things.

Due to the sheer amount of work needed it's more efficient to outright remove the current system if they wish to change it, not that it's plausible due to how everything is interlocked.

Giving better range to ADC's makes them stronger in the right hand then the current braindead rick-clicked and got easy kills. While they can miss they can also kill enemies before they can harm them.

Better range? You sir, have not been on these boards for long.

People here already feel that Vayne has too much range.

Riot's idea of implementing ammunition like Graves Jhin has is more interesting and offers counterplay.

While this is a interesting idea and also highlighted by how strong Twitch is....it's far from good still.

Because marksmen's auto's need to be unblockable for the sake of teamfights, then they also need to be impossible to miss or at least very difficult for the sake of laning phase.

Then we also gotta factor in just how many marksmen are balanced around having a metric ton of attackspeed.

And while it's easy to talk about change and ideals it's far harder to first create them, and then actually implement them without breaking something, which ties into the next point.

While your idea's here are somewhat interesting and ties into issue's like Twitch (Issues of his ultimate and it's function) it´s still not plausible to to the sheer amount of work in first creating an entirely new system from scratch, then balancing and implementing it.

I can't even begin to describe how much work it would take, not to mention that the reload mechanics don't make sense for a number of champions.

Those champions would need their own unique systems, which would mean even more work and balancing.

And while i understand the frustration that follow the fact that auto´s can't be avoided you must consider....

Marksmen need that mechanic because otherwise they cant farm, there is simple no way around this. And even if you somehow made it so that auto's become something like a point and click skillshot it would be needed to rework the entire auto attack speed system.

Which would then need all crit and and attackspeed items to be reworked too.

The sheer volume of work needed to do anything of what you suggest makes the idea impossible from the very start. There are simply too many difficulties in doing anything at all.

dolce de leche2 votes

TL;DR adcs would be hella weak with your suggestions, and they aren't even that good. This is why the boards aren't taken seriously. (A little bit of/s)

It is quite obvious that you are biased, as adcs need supports more than supports need adcs. However, despite the fact that adcs are pathetic early, and are therefore dependent on a support, also because they need items but not xp they can afford to have another champ in their lane as long as they get the cs, the whole team is largely reliant on the consistent dmg they bring to both champs and objectives late game. The reason adcs are given point and click dmg is that if it wasn't none of them would be played. Despite a plethora of nerfs Ap is still a super strong stat, and most mages have great scaling. This compounds upon the issue that many AP items give health/mana/armor/mr/ useful passive s. The reason mages were nerfed is that they were too strong. They had too much sustained damage for their burst damage and were still tankier than adcs. Adcs also tend to have less utility cc and mobility, so making the non-burst-no cc super-squishy low mobility class skill shot reliant would kill them. Oh yeah, and their items get nerfed a lot, even though some get buffed, whenever they abuse an item it gets nerfs

1zseni3 votes

"Go and play for honor if you have such a boner for melee combat :(" This post is not even about glorifying melee did you even read the whole post ? :D

Thefrostyviking2 votes

{quoted}

"Go and play for honor if you have such a boner for melee combat :(" This post is not even about glorifying melee did you even read the whole post ? :D

I wrote out the reasons why removing all those ranged AA champs would result in a massive spike in melee champs, thus it's valid.

Because juggernauts and skirmishers share the one weakness of being vulnerable to DPS while resistant to burst, they would heavily negate the presence of most mages.

Then in such a situation people would hate mages with zoning and waveclear because they make it hard for melee to push and siege, thus waveclearers would be nerfed or fighters buffed to be able to deal with it.

Assassins and supports wouldn't have much of a place without marksmen, there wouldn't be anyone for them to target or help.

Fighters, juggernauts and tanks would end up beign utterly dominant since their only weakness is powerful sustained DPS.

And many of those champs can counter eachother,and they are both mobile with plenty of damage ontop of that.

Something that most mages wouldnt be able to handle, thus melee would overtake mages.

And with mages gone the game becomes a melee bashing party.

fuffychan1 votes

tl;dr

{quoted}

I am bad at this game

I agree

OP Garen Support4 votes

[deleted]

fuffychan2 votes

Anyone who thinks ADCs are OP is bad

Why would I bother reading your worthless opinions?

OP Garen Support4 votes

You came here to insult me and then report me for saying it is useless :D

AirKingNeo4 votes

ADCs are really strong right now, unless you're the few that are shit.

I hate when this happens.

MoldyCheese11 votes

WAIT ADC META IS BAD? HAHAHHAHA IM NOT EVEN AN AD MAIN AND I CAN SAY THAT I MUCH PREFER SOME KILLING ME IN A SUSTAIN FIGHT WITH AUTO ATTACKS THAN A GOD DAMN ASSASSIN META WHERE RENGAR FUCKING ULTS THE 3KHP 200 ARMOR DARIUS PRESSES Q AND FUCKING KILLS HIM OR THE 1000AP LB 3 SHOTTING A GOD DAMN DRAGON.

OP Garen Support1 votes

Except ADC melts tanks and is bursting people left and right with sustained lifesteal to keep them alive.

Most assassins are bad now meaning ADC dominate games.

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