Expectated outcome for immobile Mage reworks

Solideus··48 votes·7,459 views

Edit: "Expectated", lol. Just throwing out what my gut expectations are for the immobile mage rework ~3-4 months from now. Comment on what you agree or disagree with!

On top of what I listed below, my guess is some champions could get something entirely new on top of what they have, like Skarner and Corki did. For example, Brand seem like he wouldn't need much work, but could still get some crazy wildfire mechanic, or whatever, in spite of that.

In summary, I think MalzaharVladimirHeimerdingerZyra will see the most significant changes, and AnnieSwainAnivia becoming a notably modernized.

Pick-Off Mages Malzahar Major. Improved play-pattern and and ability behaviors, redistributed power budget, overhauled Voidlings. Annie Moderate. Overhauled E, "travel-time" on R, possibly new mechanics on Tibbers. Lux Minor. Tweaks, possibly on W. Morgana Minor. Tweaks, possibly reworked Passive.

Tanky Mages Vladimir Major. Several overhauled abilities and better defined niche. Swain Moderate. Improved play-pattern and some new targeting paradigms.

Hypercarries Cassiopeia Minor. May see some tweaks. Syndra Minor. Retuned power-curve and improved Passive. Viktor Minor. Tweaks to Passive.

Zone Control Heimerdinger Major. New Passive, a fair amount of kit changes. Better counterplay and 1v1 gameplay. (A **tough **nut to crack, don't know at all how they'll do it.) Zyra Major. Better gameplay with her plants; should really be the squishy mages' answer to Illaoi. AniviaModerate. Improved play-pattern and and ability behaviors. Clarity improvements for kit synergy. XerathMinor. Tweaks to R, maybe little more than aesthetic ones. . . . Extra: Some mages that likely won't be included, but could use some love

Major Fiddlesticks A really weird character overall, really needs significant kit improvements and better distributed power budget. TwistedFate A unique character, but desperately needs an entirely new Passive and E. His Q might be better off reworked a bit too.

Minor Azir Skill floor is really a bit too high. Rumble Could possibly see them do tweaks to Heat mechanic. Lissandra Could use a Passive that's more interesting, but not much else. Kennen Mechanics could do being condensed a little bit. . . Edit: Some commenters suggested "utility mages" may not be included in the rework batch, which makes me less sure of what will be included. The line between mage and utility-mage is blurred at best. However, this could suggest that Annie BrandKarthusMalzaharVelkozSyndraXerath currently have a better shot at a rework spot than others, but that could of course change down the line.

189 Comments

LankPants19 votes

I find it odd that you list Syndra as a hypercarry, considering she was always considered as an early game bully who fell off hard if she didn't snowball before her nerfs and has not received any buffs to her late game since.

I'd agree that she probably should be a hypercarry based off of her thematics, but something tells me it would take more than minor buffs to make her one.

I do think that a minor rework (ala Ashe) to help shift her in that direction would be a good idea though.

Solideus3 votes

True! She isn't really a hypercarry right now. As you said that seem to be the implied fantasy of the character, though, which I've seen a Rioter or two say as well. The reason I expect to to be a "minor" rework is because it might mostly be numbers changing, similar to LeBlanc's power-curve tuning during season 4. Changes to the passive might go along with that, but that could end up being mostly numbers changing too. I'd certainly be surprised if she gets anything beyond the scope of Ashe's rework.

Solaxo13 votes

Don't touch Malzahar . Just don't.

7ha7guy77727 votes

According to his dance, you can't touch Malzahar

TeCoolMage2 votes

Malzahar is my bae and they better not give him a Marksmen or Juggernaut level change, which practically reworked their entire playstyle.

That being said, Ashe Lucian Vayne Varus etc level changes are perfectly fine. Especially in terms of voidlings, as AD Malzahar is getting pushed out with all the attack speed and crit chance being dumped onto most AD items.

LaoBushido11 votes

Riot considers anivia a utility made and she will not be considered with the immobile major rework

Solideus2 votes

I'm not sure I believe that, but if you could link to where you saw a Rioter say that I'd really appreciate it!

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure I believe that, but if you could link to where you saw a Rioter say that I'd really appreciate it!

They said it. They specifically said they'll be working mostly on the "damage-focused" mages, leaving out utility ones like Anivia.

As for what defines a damage mage vs a utility mage... who knows.

Solideus3 votes

In my mind "utility mage" would refer to the likes of Lux or Morgana. Anivia certianly skirts the edge between immobile mage and utility mage, if utility mages are excluded from the rework.

Vistha Kai4 votes

Lux wasn't even standing next to the "utility", mate. She's a walking 100-0 machine with an odd shield spell.

Solideus4 votes

She also has a slow and a root!

Vistha Kai3 votes

Syndra has a slow and a stun. Viktor has a slow, a stun and a channeled spell breaker. Etc.

Also, I believe you should put Viktor in the "zone control" category.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

Anivia is a utility mage she packs in-kit slows and a huge wall that disrupts the enemy team.

Solideus1 votes

I think she's an edge case; lots of immobile mages have CC and slows. She has a lot of damage, too. Creating terrain is also on champs like Trundle and Jarvan, whom certainly aren't utility champions.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

Actually trundle can be a utility champion because of his terrain and debuffs, while jarvin is more of a tank due to hard cc, utility and high defenses.

Smithney7 votes

I disagree that Cassiopeia will be getting only minor changes. She is pretty much just an E-spambot atm and needs some serious updating on her gameplay fantasy (she is supposed to be a hyper-carry poison mage afaik). On the other hand, Heimerdinger might not be satisfying enough, but I think his kit can't get much better than it is now.

As to which other champions do I consider to be top contenders for major udpate, I'd place my bets on Zyra, Malzahar, Galio, and Brand. For less significant changes, there are plenty to consider, most importantly Syndra, Vladimir, Annie and Swain.

Edit: Aside from that, I would really like to see an update on Fiddlesticks, but as OP said, that isn't likely to happen soon.

therealdragon6 votes

Why is Velkoz not listed here? Besides his base ms he has literally no mobility whatsoever and is punished for it just like the rest. Even moreso I might think as literally ALL his abilities are skillshots so if you miss them all due to the enemy champ moving, you're screwed for the next 10s.

I'm pretty sure he's a definite candidate for being an immobile mage.

Hemulen Magi43 votes

Vel'Koz has a great kit. He functions without needing mobility due to the amount of range, damage, AOE impact, and CC in his kit. Don't homogenize him just to fit in with mobility creep. Mobility isn't his thing. If he needs buffs, give him more damage, range, or CC.

PS. It's possible that I misunderstood you. It looks like you are complaining about Vel'Koz's immobility, but if that's not the case, then please confirm. I agree that he is immobile, but I think that is a good thing since not every champion should be. Like I said, if he needs buffs, he should have his strengths emphasized instead of adding mobility to homogenize him.

therealdragon4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GyiRaOhk,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2015-11-30T14:56:10.738+0000)

Vel'Koz has a great kit. He functions without needing mobility due to the amount of range, damage, AOE impact, and CC in his kit. Don't homogenize him just to fit in with mobility creep. Mobility isn't his thing. If he needs buffs, give him more damage, range, or CC.

They all have great kits. The reason I asked why he wasn't listed because he does fall under the category of immobile mage. He has no mobility spells and does damage from afar with some cc in there. He's exactly the same as, say, brand. Both are immobile mages.

Hemulen Magi2 votes

Okay. I misunderstood you then. I had edited my post to add a note asking for clarification right before you replied. I thought you were asking for him to be homogenized but if you are just stating the fact that he is immobile, then I agree.

therealdragon2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GyiRaOhk,comment-id=0004000100000000,timestamp=2015-11-30T15:07:37.995+0000)

Okay. I misunderstood you then. I had edited my post to add a note asking for clarification right before you replied. I thought you were asking for him to be homogenized but if you are just stating the fact that he is immobile, then I agree.

Yeah. I was just stating that he should be on this list as he classifies as an immobile mage. He shouldn't be getting huge buffs like the top of the list (in OP's opinion) malzahar, but should be getting something added to him so he's not left out of the loop after the rework is all done for them. This is where I said mobility adding but if the rest aren't getting mobility then neither should he lol.

Come to think of it, it's actually already kind of easy to land your e w combo after you q as vel. The slow lasts long enough and if it actually hits, that pretty much means you're already close enough or can get close enough.

P.S The reason I say in OP's opinion is because riot probably has a different immobile mage at the top of their list as they prob think differently than us lol. I'm also guessing that that mage is gonna be cass as they said they were gonna work on her as she didn't meet their requirements of a poison mage.

WarlockLaw3 votes

I think Vel'Koz doesn't need any changes to his kit. He is one of the few immobile mages I would consider viable without being oppressive. His damage is high enough that he can win a teamfight despite having a Zed/Vi/Lee dive him if he hits everything

Curling Veigar6 votes

Veigar ?

Knoyle5 votes

What's wrong with Veigar? Don't get the wrong Idea, I am seriously asking if he really needs any reworks. To me it just seems like he stands fine where he is as the late game "Magic Glass Cannon"

xSleepy2 votes

i think he's in a good place, if you can dodge his baby cage he's pretty easy to kill, and his burst damage is crazy but you can still get to him before he carries the teamfight

Spoofghoul9 votes

Veigar needs more evil stuff in his kit

Knoyle3 votes

Veigar "I AM evil! STOP LAUGHING!!!"

The0neBarWarrior6 votes

Please not Malzahar; he's fine right now. Malzahar is one of the few mages who can get away fairly well with no mobility. If they did give him some speed boost on one of his skills, his power budget would have to be rebalanced which inevitably means ratio nerfs.

Solideus3 votes

In all likelyhood, none of the updates will add mobility to the champions. Rather, they will try to differentiate between the immobile mages as well as giving them other things that make them as useful as mobile mages.

Auz the Ripper3 votes

Malzahar really doesn't need any differentiation though, his kit is unique and isn't problematic

M0b1us5 votes

Galio Ziggs Zyra Syndra Karma Fiddlesticks Xerath

Those are my guesses as the most probable choices. Syndra and Ziggs on the lower end while Galio is on the upper end. I would love to see a new passive for Lissandra or at least a minor change.

Solideus4 votes

Do you think Galio is closer to a mage than a tank? There are mage-y poke elements to his kit, but fundamentally I think he works more like a tank, especially considering his ult. Do you disagree?

Packun Flower5 votes

"We realize immobile Mage are in a bad state, so we are helping them out by giving them 5 ad and buffing their attack speed by a few ticks." - Riot Balance team.

Bijorn4 votes

You forgot Brand in there, one of the mages that is defined by his immobility.

xSleepy4 votes

i would LOVE if Zyra somehow got her plans to work like Azir 's soldiers. i'm a huge fan of zyra but her plants just are not reliable, and while i understand how the ai is complicated and riot has tried in the past (with some recent success) to improve the targeting ai, i feel like Zyra would be at least 3 times more viable if she could directly control her plants.

Solideus3 votes

I hope they take the lessons from Azir and Illaoi and try to improve Zyra's plants. It's a bit weaksauce that her spells just spawns low-interaction variations of plants rather than somehow interacting more integrally with them. I'd love to see the plants growing on their own and her using spells through her plants instead, for example.

Yma S3 votes

Since rammus was nerfed due to ADC reworks

Galio will most likely be gutted after the mage reworks

Vistha Kai2 votes

Do you really believe they will change Cassiopeia? Like "really"?

Solideus6 votes

Seems like an opinion-posed-as-a-question-comment. She does fit the bill for an immobile mage. They have a decent base to work with since last they worked on her, too.

warpenguin5552 votes

who i wanna see get changed: Swain Zyra Vladimir Fiddlesticks Anivia Cassiopeia and maybe some minor stuff goes to: Annie Karthus TwistedFate Syndra Heimerdinger Malzahar (makes me nervous when i think of the things riot could do to him)

MilfHuntUnitXJ92 votes

How about you delete that Vladimir rework part? I dont want you giving Riot any ideas. I like my main how it is, dude, and im certain his niche is completely fine where it is.

Teridax682 votes

I think the distinction between utility mages and other types is that utility mages already offer something that is totally unique and that mobile mages don't have really good access to (e.g. no mobile mage could have Anivia's area denial, Orianna's ally wombo combo potential, or Morgana's massive CC and utility), whereas most immobile mages tend to suffer mainly because, due to both mobile and immobile mages primarily supplementing damage, there's less of a distinction between the latter two's contributions, which makes immobile mages feel bad when mobile mages can do more or less what they're meant to shine at, on top of having more maneuverability. For that reason, I also think Xerath and Lux are unlikely to receive too many changes, if any at all, because their unparalleled range is also a clear factor that sets them apart from mobile mages. On the other hand, Swain and Vlad are likely to receive changes eventually, despite having power mobile mages don't (i.e. sustain), mainly because their self-healing is really poorly gated and not as cool as it could be.

A lot of what you posted looks fairly spot-on, though, and on top of that I think/hope the immobile mage pass might put an emphasis on their AoE and/or combo capabilities, something you brought up especially on Brand: a common feature of all mobile mages (e.g. Ahri, Azir, Leblanc, who probably counts more as an assassin overall, Lissandra and Ziggs) is that their damage tends to be mostly focused on a single enemy. Mages like Brand, Heimerdinger and Karthus all have tremendous AoE potential, but so far have also remained mostly focused on killing enemies one at a time, which not only limits diversity of gameplay, imo (if there's one class out there who should encourage catching multiple enemies at a time or nuking different opponents over the course of a fight, it should be mages), but also forces those immobile champions to set themselves the same goals as mobile mages (i.e. "kill this one target"), but with fewer tools and power that doesn't directly help when achieving said goals (often, killing multiple targets at once feels more incidental to focusing a specific enemy, when it should likely be the main goal of those champions). Enabling greater AoE potential on these champions, at the cost of other factors (e.g. less single-target burst, combo gates on their AoE potential, etc.) could help them distinguish themselves as great anti-crowd damage dealers.

On the opposite end, champions like Syndra, Viktor and Veigar are capable of popping certain champions in a single ability rotation without needing to be too far ahead (Brand too, though to a lesser extent, so he might need to lose some burst in order to have more AoE, or vice versa, in order to differentiate himself more), which is already something mobile champions are less likely to do without a large gold and level lead, but that ultimately means a mobile mage can do everything an immobile combo mage can do if they snowball hard enough, except with supplemental mobility to make their own comboes easier to set up. I'm less sure of what could be done for them, but I think the main lever to pull should be their ability to punish people for falling into their combo trap: immobile mages have no tools to set up their comboes other than their range, unlike mobile mages who can get themselves at just the right spot, so if they do manage to pull off their comboes, especially against a roster of champions who's become increasingly mobile, and therefore better able to evade their abilities, they should be able to dish out some of the best, if not the best burst in the game, perhaps to a level that could nuke even tanks. They should likely be less effective if their comboes get dodged, e.g. via longer cooldowns, slower nukes, weaker AoE and the like, as a result, but with a heavy focus on punishing comboes they should be able to provide power mobile champions couldn't touch (area denial, at the very least).

As for sustain mages (Fiddlesticks, Ryze, Swain, Vladimir, perhaps Cassiopeia and Morgana, though they rely a lot less on their self-healing), they already have pretty visible and unique strengths (self-healing, great DPS, superior resilience for a mage) and weaknesses (sub-par range and burst for a mage, low mobility for any champion), but the main issue with most of them is their gameplay: the Cass and Ryze reworks didn't quite hit the mark, Fiddle's been abandoned by recent jungle itemization and has a ton of anti-synergies holding him back (e.g. his Q making enemies run away from his W, once fear was made non-random), and both Swain and Vlad have such poorly controlled self-healing that they'd be absolutely horrible to deal with if they received proper buffs. A big part of the issue here likely comes down to the problem of drain tanking (how do you balance a champion whose durability is based on healing over time?), and if Riot manages to find a way to give these champions proper sustain and DPS, with both sufficient power and counterplay, they could potentially also solve the issue of other sustain champions, like Warwick and Dr. Mundo, without having to resort to Grievous Wounds, which isn't a good mechanic and hasn't proven to be very intuitive since its recent reintroduction to marksman itemization.

BreadSammich2 votes

I dont really think that the "Immobile mage" is a bad thing. This may be an unpopular opinion but these types of characters are what feels most like a mage to me. The crazy mobile ap midlaners are not what the mage archetype is supposed to envelope...

Canastus2 votes

What Cass needs are some major changes, not some small "tweaks". Cassiopeia

NazZomLord2 votes

Orianna is perfect <3

Cyrus Du Couteau2 votes

You don't understand what a hypercarry is.

DoFr2 votes

i legit love xerath the way he is, if anything, i wanna do extra damage equal to the amount of mana gained when AA with his passive.

only Ten of you? how disappointing Xerath

Bootleg Gay1 votes

Malzahar and Fiddlesticks ate my concerns. They have about the same theme; mow them down with DoT.

doombotMECHA12 votes

nah man, fiddle's theme is "shit im out of mana" it's one he shares with yorick

Meep Man4 votes

Fid's theme is, "Inconsistency"

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