Why is Smite still a summoner spell? (And other Jungle tweaks)

The5lacker··2 votes·1,205 views

So a quick preface: I like the new Jungle items. On a conceptual level, at least. I think the four Smite derivatives are playing with some fun concepts, and the Enchantment system offers some flexibility based on what the jungler scales on and intends to be doing (though some obviously work better with others) My question, however, is why Smite hasn't just been moved to an Item active for the jungle item line?

Summoner Spells are there to offer choices for high-stakes plays. They almost universally have long cooldowns and potent effects that aren't gated by the capabilities of the champion themselves. The exceptions, of course, are Flash (which everyone takes because it's stupidly powerful) and Smite (which is only taken by junglers and more or less must always be taken by junglers) So we've got the illusion of choice taking up a valuable spot for an archetype of champion who's got enough problems to deal with anyways.

So how about we just migrate it over to the Jungler line?

item 1039 Passive - Jungler - Deal 30 bonus magic damage over 2 second to enemy monsters on spells and basic attacks, and restore 7 health and 3 mana per second while in combat with enemy monsters. Active - Smite - Deals 390 - 1000 true damage (based on level) to target enemy monster. Grants bonuses based on the monster targeted. (60 Second Cooldown) (750 Range) Only one Jungler item can be owned at a time.

This seems like a pretty reasonable change. The new jungle is a harsh place, after all, and allowing players to bring Barrier or Exhaust would allow them to focus on certain aspects while remaining flexible in others.

Now I can already hear the complaints. "But wouldn't that mean everyone can pick up a Jungler item and upgrade it to get some cheap and powerful stats on top of Smite!?" Well yes, if we just left it at that. But I there's a fairly straightforwards solution to this problem: Prevent players from Enchanting their Jungling items unless they're actually jungling. Lets, for example, bring back the stacking system from the old Feral Flare. Not in the "infinite stacking" capacity, of course. That'd just be silly. Instead, lets have it take a certain number of stacks to "unlock" the enchantment slot for the item, and then have stacks gained from killing large Monsters.

Passive - Enchantment - Killing large monsters awakens the power of this weapon. Grants a stack with every large monster kill, Smite use against large monsters, and Champion kill or assist. At 20 stacks, can be upgraded with one of 4 enchantments.

This limits the Jungling items to, you know, junglers, but offers enough flexibility for all junglers to upgrade them in a timely manner.

Now that we've got my main point wrapped up, a few other quick things:

  1. item 3711

Poacher's Knife is a massive risk with rather piddling reward. The bonus gold and whatnot is nice, but ONLY working in the enemy jungle more or less means telegraphing your intent about a sneaky activity and then begging your face pounded in because you telegraphed your intent to only counter-jungle. This is bad. Counterjungling is very risky, and making an item that only does a single risky thing just doesn't work.

Instead, lets focus Poacher's Knife on taking out priority targets while implicitly focusing it on counterjungling.

Active - Ravaging Smite - Deals 390 - 1000 true damage (based on level) to target enemy monster. Grants bonuses based on the monster targeted. In addition, marks the Monster with Ravage for 6 seconds, doubling the Jungler bonuses against that monster. If the monster dies while under the effect of Ravage, grants 15 bonus Gold, restores Health and Mana equal to 15% of the champion's missing Health and Mana, respectively, and grants a 175% Movement Speed bonus that decays over 3 seconds. (45 Second Cooldown) (750 Range)

Is now much more of a "quickly take a big thing" as opposed to a "Hopefully don't get murdered while stealing." Additionally, all upgraded Smites gets a 45 second cooldown, and Ravaging Smite gets the needless heal from Blasting Smite. Speaking of which,

  1. item 3713 Blasting Smite does way, waaaay too much. On top of AoE damage and AoE stuns, offers a rather potent heal. Moving that to Ravaging Smite will help even out their relative powers and keep Ranger's Trailblazer from being the go-to for everyone and their mother.

10 Comments

Leti the Yeti3 votes

I dont think I want my junglers having both flash or ghost AND exhaust/ignite/teleport ;l....

that and what about gank heavy junglers... iI went like 80 cs rammus and 11 kills ffs

The5lacker1 votes

Why not? Sure it'd be a buff, but not nearly to the degree you make it out to be. All it's doing is leveling out the playing field. Enemy has two summoner spells? Jungler has two summoner spells.

Cindikle2 votes

I believe they say it's for clarity. So you know who is going to jungle.

Also right now, I don't want just any lane getting all those stats and a smite.

Passive lanes would just start with it for the cannon minions to help farm.

Push lanes would require it. Lanes fighting push would require it to counter push lanes.

Everyone would buy it because 5k true damage on baron/dragon is far stronger than 1k. Only way around this one is to make it so same teams can't smite the same target within x seconds. But this would create troll problems.

Basically. Everyone would end up buying it. It's that powerful. Something with that kind of power would require giving up something. Say a summoner spell.

No one would start in a lane. Everyone would clear a camp at the start to enter lane at level 2.

I didn't read much of your post. I'm sorry if you covered this already. But in the end smite has to stay a spell. It's too powerful. If they up the cost of the items that come form it then junglers would suffer from it. There is no win-win.

The5lacker1 votes

As usual I have to remind people to READ THE ENTIRE THREAD.

No other summoner spell outright screams intent. You could see someone go Clarity+Heal, and then go top.

There's no way to get the stats without actually jungling. Or getting 20 kills. In which case, probably better things to be doing with your gold.

How about rather than form your entire opinion on an issue around a title like some sort of semi-literate fucktard, read the thread. It makes you look like less of an impatient simpleton. I've address all of your concerns already. "Everybody would buy it?" Nobody but the jungler would buy it because nobody but the jungler would be able to put actual stats on it, and nobody is going to buy an item that doesn't grant stats. Nobody. Ever.

Plus, limited it to Monsters only on the targeting, so can't even smite minions anymore, because that was only used as a stupid "jungler tax" so there would quite literally be absolutely no reason for anyone but the jungler to start the game with one.

I didn't read much of your post. I'm sorry if you covered this already. But in the end smite has to stay a spell. It's too powerful. If they up the cost of the items that come form it then junglers would suffer from it. There is no win-win.

This anti-intellectual mentality needs to stop. It's only used by lazy people with superiority complexes to justify their ignorance. "Well I didn't read all of it." Well you should have. Always read the entire post before replying, because otherwise, you're going to miss things like the rather crucial changes I made to smite and the jungle items that counteract every single complaint you have.

Cindikle1 votes

Would seem I hit the spot on that post.

You're only solution is to put a stacking effect on it.

Sure this keeps it off the laners in the early game. But it doesn't.

Having that smite will mean more to a lanner than anything a doran's item could give them.

Having that smite would mean that they would have more free team from clearing lanes.

Having more time would mean they could go clear a jungle camp here and there. The jungle isn't farming 100% of the time. If they're up ganking top and wolves just popped. Why shouldn't they go take it? On top of that it adds the free vision for doing so. If it's the other way they can get a free oracles and clear a ward making it easier for the jungle to gank.

Now we added utility on top of all of this. Sure they can't get the free stats right away. But they will get it in time. The jungle is expected to be able to upgrade this within a reasonable time so that it's worth doing. A lanner wont get it as soon, but they will get it.

And the biggest problem to your idea. If a jungler gets behind they are fully screwed on this time. We're talking some important stats that the other jungle will get much sooner. Because it's not based on gold but instead your effectiveness in the jungle. Which will also only support more afk-farming junglers.

You'll have to find a better solution than that. One that wont hurt the junglers and wont benefit the lanners. I just don't see a way for that to really happen.

The best thing I can think of is that it reduces all damage you to to minions till you get the full upgrade. Which still hurts junglers if they need to hold a lane while their teammate is running back from base or roaming. There is no Win-Win.

I didn't read much through your post the first time because I could already guess what you had to say. This isn't a new topic. And I'm sure Riot has put their heads together for it multiple times.

The5lacker1 votes

If by "hit the spot" you mean "Irritated the fuck out of me by being dumb as shit" then yes.

My solution solves the problem. That's why it's called a solution.

What laner wants the ability to only smite monsters? Because again, if you bothered to read, only effects monsters. Not minions. No laner is ever, under any circumstances, waste 400g on the ability to do nothing in lane. Nobody.

Nothing you have said makes any sense. You're operating under the assumption that people are going to drop 750g and an item slot for the theoretical potential of having five junglers. Just...what is your major malfunction?

If "Riot has put their heads together multiple times," why is there a feedback section? Oh, right, to suggest ideas they haven't thought of and give the community a voice. It's just that some people choose to use their voice for ignorant ego-stroking, while the rest of us try to come up with actual solutions to actual problems.

Face it, you've formed an opinion and are frantically scrambling to justify it. That's not how discussions work. You fail at discussions. You're throwing together edge-cases that are neither relevant nor damning towards the idea.

Also, you still have to pay for the enchantments. You ignorant motherfucker.

Cindikle1 votes

You said nothing about 750g. Only need 400g for the item. 750 would only give you the smite upgrades.

And again, a lanner taking smite would make farming easier and faster for them. As well as they can walk out and take a jungle camp here and there when the jungle is on the other side. As well as be able to assist in counter jungleing.

Top it off with the efficency this would give the lanner they would also gain the upgrades after time. They don't have to upgrade right away.

I've pointed out multiple problems with your idea. It piles up to more problems than solutions. I'm sorry you take such offense to me discussing these problems. Only to get backlash for it.

Changing to monster only would hurt it's worth as well. As it works on pets, turrets and Zac. But that's it. Even with that loss. Making it into an item is just far too strong. It doesn't have to be a starting item. But can easily be taken on the first back.

You're solution doesn't solve the problem. Making it only effect monsters only weakens it in fights vs some champions. This is fine. Making it require stacks of monster kills only slows behind jungles and lanner can still get it in time. 750 for the upgraded smite effects ALONE is worth more than 750g. You're vastly underselling the worth of smite right now. And that's just the effects. We're not adding in walking to a monster camp and smiting it just for the buff and going back to lane. Mid lane can use their smite to clear a ward and allow the jungle to gank who used his smite to secure red buff and get some HP. We're talking massive utility here.

I cannot think of a way to balance it into an item that wont hurt junglers or making lanners too strong. And no you're plan doesn't fix it. Stack limits only hurt junglers who got behind. This alone is bad. And it only delays lanners. It doesn't stop them. A 2200g item that gives all those stats and an active that is so powerful it is currently limited to a summoner spell. It'll become mandatory on everyone to pick one up at some point.

Even now there are videos of pro's taking smite into lanes.

Rebonack2 votes

The Jungler items should be strong because it costs a Summoner Spell to use them.

That is a really big deal.

The5lacker1 votes

But they aren't. They're all gold efficient, but aside from their interactions with Smite they don't really do anything. All of the enchantments except Devourer are pure stat sticks.

And more importantly, how is that related to the discussion at hand? At all?

The5lacker1 votes

MY SMITE CANNOT TARGET LANE MINIONS

MY SMITE CANNOT TARGET LANE MINIONS

MY FUCKING SMITE CANNOT FUCKING TARGET FUCKING LANE MINIONS

Do you get it yet? Have you wrapped your mind around this whole "reading" concept yet? Spending 400g would do NOTHING in ANY CAPACITY for anyone not jungling. NOTHING. Do you no what the word nothing means? It means "not anything." As in "Anything that any other item could do against minions, Hunter's Machete still wouldn't." It wouldn't help with farming. It would do nothing to help with farming. It would be a 400g investment that would do nothing other than motivate people to leave lane (getting their tower pushed down) and steal jungle farm (which sets the jungler back.) The only way of using Hunter's Machete early game is actively detrimental to your team if you aren't the jungler.

And you can't just buy it late game for objective control because, again, it takes up an item slot and cannot be upgraded unless you are jungling. Or unless you get 20 kills, in which case you've probably already won.

What would you be willing to give up to get Smite? Would you be willing to set your NLR back a few minutes? Or maybe just trade in your Doran's Ring? I'm sure that would get you completely and utterly buttfucked in lane. Nah. Having an item that does nothing for you is so OP.

More from Gameplay

More by The5lacker