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Rengar revert

Imperial Japan··3 votes·1,103 views

As many of you may know, Rengar has been reworked for the reasons of being toxic to play against. Some may think his rework may have fixed that but I personally believe that the rework wasn't executed as smooth as Riot believes it had.

I cannot represent the thoughts of everyone but I have heard from many users that they still think that Rengar is as toxic if not MORE toxic than he used to be. < this problem mainly stemming from his CC immunity and his passive AD scaling as they both can be abused in a solo queue type situation where both teams are unorganized.

I also cannot represent Rengar Mains old or new who has played this game but I believe that a quick look at the RengarMains subbreddit and the amounts of high Elo one trick Rengar Mains (Priest, etc. if you'd like to see more names who left, view the subreddit.) who've left will show you their opinions but A reccuring point I see in the subreddit is mainly that the players do not enjoy the Q changes at all as many argue that "Rengar does not feel as smooth as he used to feel", or "I miss the skill depth that the Q allowed in combination with his other spells."

Who I can represent is myself though. Although I am not quite a Rengar main, I've played enough Rengar to the point where I can make this argument. Rengar needs a change. A change where both Mains and non Mains can agree upon. A change that will lead Rengar into the right direction.

Rengar needs a rework that'll allow the Rengar Mains to still be able to preform tricky combos that are both satisfying and smooth with the depth old Rengar had while allowing for counterplay. Riot knew this and tried to rework Rengar for the better and tried to give him lots of counterplay but instead made him extremely hard to play against with the addition of the CC immunity and other tools given to him. I think that Riot should revert the rework and change some minor details or give Rengar another rework that'll make him both fun and rewarding to play as but with having counterplay

18 Comments

LankPants1 votes

Rengar shouldn't be reverted because old Rengar was terrible. The kind of "depth" that Rengar's Q had was inappropriate for a multiplayer game. It was an input test, if you were fed enough and pressed buttons in the correct order quickly enough the enemy died and there was nothing at all they or their allies could have done about it.

Rengar's rework should never be reverted, the rework was 100% in the right direction. Rengar's burst needed to be slowed down, the problem isn't that Riot slowed his burst down, it's that they didn't go far enough.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Honestly New Rengar is a lot better. The whole counterplay in his kit is before the ulti now, not after. Is it that hard to understand?

Imperial Japan2 votes

{quoted}

Honestly New Rengar is a lot better. The whole counterplay in his kit is before the ulti now, not after. Is it that hard to understand?

Explain to me the counterplay he has.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Well the Q is dodgeable now (not really sidestep, but you can burn the ss) and rengar can opt for losing some damage but get a more reliable experience by using the snare (Which is also avoidable). Also if you are near a teammate, and rengar tries to kill you, he'll reveal himself before the jump; therefore allowing you to stop him.

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

Well the Q is dodgeable now (not really sidestep, but you can burn the ss) and rengar can opt for losing some damage but get a more reliable experience by using the snare (Which is also avoidable). Also if you are near a teammate, and rengar tries to kill you, he'll reveal himself before the jump; therefore allowing you to stop him.

His E always has been avoidable and his Q is barely avoided and even if you might've flashed out of it, the dash and speed boost he gets can allow him to catch up to you to kill you. His jump range is only a slight bit smaller than the vision range and he can just simply walk around you and then jump if he is targeting one of you. He now does more damage with up to 20% scaling AD and has more mobility. He can now be immune to cc and stay in ult for several years longer which also allows him to have less skillful decision making as his old ult used to have to have you dive a short amount after you pressed it. Please go on with your counterplay

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Yes he can catch up to you, but he would lose the cc cleanse, therefore making him peelable.

He is also no longer CC immune, it has been removed.

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

Yes he can catch up to you, but he would lose the cc cleanse, therefore making him peelable.

He is also no longer CC immune, it has been removed.

He can use ghost blade. You know, that item that he's used for a while now? not to mention the fact that he'll most likely have flash too. (Chilling smite sometimes)

Rengar Top Lane1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly New Rengar is a lot better. The whole counterplay in his kit is before the ulti now, not after. Is it that hard to understand?

What counterplay before...? If you're speaking of seeing one person only and seeing him while camo'd, that could have EASILY been added to the old Rengar.

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

Rengar shouldn't be reverted because old Rengar was terrible. The kind of "depth" that Rengar's Q had was inappropriate for a multiplayer game. It was an input test, if you were fed enough and pressed buttons in the correct order quickly enough the enemy died and there was nothing at all they or their allies could have done about it.

Rengar's rework should never be reverted, the rework was 100% in the right direction. Rengar's burst needed to be slowed down, the problem isn't that Riot slowed his burst down, it's that they didn't go far enough.

His old Q was an enhanced auto attack. My argument is that Rengar feels shitty to play and that they need to change Rengar back, or in a different way as to allow both Mains and opponents happy with him.

His old form used to be able to get CC'd which added counterplay (like it does against most assassins) and he had to position in such manner that he couldn't get collapsed on easily. His new form allows for more of a assassin tank which lets him still insta killing while getting rid of the counterplay (w=CC Immune)

Rengar Top Lane1 votes

{quoted}

Rengar shouldn't be reverted because old Rengar was terrible. The kind of "depth" that Rengar's Q had was inappropriate for a multiplayer game. It was an input test, if you were fed enough and pressed buttons in the correct order quickly enough the enemy died and there was nothing at all they or their allies could have done about it.

Rengar's rework should never be reverted, the rework was 100% in the right direction. Rengar's burst needed to be slowed down, the problem isn't that Riot slowed his burst down, it's that they didn't go far enough.

  • Old Rengar was not more oppressive as current one. Flat heal did not beat the double %heals he has on reworked. Old Q was not an aoe that could destroy multiple squishies at once. Ultimate was more informative and did not place Rengar in horrible scenarios when leaping.

  • What depth are you speaking of? It was a single target focused ability with aa speed steroids. Rengar ultimate is the biggest reason he is supposed to be a SINGLE target assassin. His reworked Q goes against that. To this day, I have no clue about his W. It seems to be a "we cannot think of anything to add for his roar because a fear would be too strong". Even his E is a single target ability. Simple way to balance the as speed after was the speed only applied to the target Rengar used empowered Q on.

  • The input test only applied when you reached the point at which you can one shot, agreed. Same goes for other burst champs as well. If you have enough damage, the enemy should die. New Rengar is just press R, leap, E, dead. Or you are bruiser and need to use Q. Nothing special to do.

  • Rengar revert should be reverted simply because it failed and it's not doing any better since the changes either. He's still at his strongest as a bruiser when he's supposed to be at his strongest as an assassin.

  • His burst isn't slowed. In fact, it is extremly deadly at level 1 in top lane. Late game doesn't feel satisfying since his kill combo is leap and bola or Q to kill.

Calabok1 votes

no revert. but maybe add a nerf?

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

no revert. but maybe add a nerf?

..

Rengar Top Lane1 votes

{quoted}

no revert. but maybe add a nerf?

He's going to be olaf'd if they continue nerfing him..

Aptest1 votes

1

I fear there is no real middle ground between what rengar mains want and what adc / support players thing rengar is acceptable with.

I've been debating the topic of Rengar for years and the stealth insta-gib is the single most important thing rengar mains want and the one thing they won't give up.

when rengar main bitch about the Q changes what they mean is that they expect a Q combo that results in insta-gib. with respect to Q changes, a Rengar main's definition of "smooth" "rewarding" and "skill depth" boils down to "can do insta-gib combo?"

OTOH the stealth insta-gib is the one thing ADC / sup players will not yield on.

so there is no middle ground here.

2

The core problem with giving something like an assassin twitch-response counter play is that as rengar you are always going to meet the correct counterplay. Basically it's a binary situation where if there is coutnerplay you end up seeing it used all the time and you don't have any reliability on your champion's high point.

I.E. you end up with a "wtf junk character can't kill anything" problem.

3

this leaves us with the solution that your team has to help you. the questions are what they can do before the Rengar jumps to restrict access to their ADC, and after the jump to make sure ADC survives.

4

This means Rengar has to be made to perform 2 iterations of his combo spaced 2-3 seconds apart. (not 0.5 seconds, that is too short). This means there has to be 2 distinct and different combos that rengar drops on the ADC, which gives the support and ADC some kind of response time.

Since Rengar has to wait out the cooldown for his second combo, the question is, what happens during that time? how does Rengar stay alive and on target, and what kind of skill check is permitted for the support to force on rengar during that time? Should the support have 100% reliability in stunlock+kill VS rengar? or should there be some kind of skill check that rengar can assert? if there is something like a skill check, how accessible it should be?

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

1

I fear there is no real middle ground between what rengar mains want and what adc / support players thing rengar is acceptable with.

I've been debating the topic of Rengar for years and the stealth insta-gib is the single most important thing rengar mains want and the one thing they won't give up.

when rengar main bitch about the Q changes what they mean is that they expect a Q combo that results in insta-gib. with respect to Q changes, a Rengar main's definition of "smooth" "rewarding" and "skill depth" boils down to "can do insta-gib combo?"

OTOH the stealth insta-gib is the one thing ADC / sup players will not yield on.

so there is no middle ground here.

2

The core problem with giving something like an assassin twitch-response counter play is that as rengar you are always going to meet the correct counterplay. Basically it's a binary situation where if there is coutnerplay you end up seeing it used all the time and you don't have any reliability on your champion's high point.

I.E. you end up with a "wtf junk character can't kill anything" problem.

3

this leaves us with the solution that your team has to help you. the questions are what they can do before the Rengar jumps to restrict access to their ADC, and after the jump to make sure ADC survives.

4

This means Rengar has to be made to perform 2 iterations of his combo spaced 2-3 seconds apart. (not 0.5 seconds, that is too short). This means there has to be 2 distinct and different combos that rengar drops on the ADC, which gives the support and ADC some kind of response time.

Since Rengar has to wait out the cooldown for his second combo, the question is, what happens during that time? how does Rengar stay alive and on target, and what kind of skill check is permitted for the support to force on rengar during that time? Should the support have 100% reliability in stunlock+kill VS rengar? or should there be some kind of skill check that rengar can assert? if there is something like a skill check, how accessible it should be?

  1. If we explore the possibilities then we could probably find a place close to the middle ground. Rengar Mains like their Q because it gives them a feel of accomplishment when they manage to pull a "insta gib combo". If riot is able to give Rengar more depth and a skill ceiling, many Rengar players will be happy due to their champion being able to reflect on the time they put in. Besides if they just implemented the ult changes and nothing else, Rengar players will stay remain happy while allowing players to fight him off before being dove on.

  2. At least old Rengar had counterplay. Now this new Rengar has easily avoidable counterplay that almost never affects the in game.

  3. This argument has some sense but if you think about it, the jump range is only slightly shorter than his vision range. If Rengar simply flanked he'd be able to kill their ADC easily anyways.

  4. His AD scaling still allows him to 1 shot pretty easily. I believe Mains and non Mains will agree that his burst doesn't have to be with 0.5 seconds and that 2 seconds is a good amount of time but the thing is A. He still one shots with the insane AD scaling passive B. The current state of his kit allows him to get away with what he used to do, just in a more linear non thought out way

Thank you for the -actually thought out- answer though. It's much better than "don't rework" or "Rengar is busted so stfu"

Aptest1 votes

1

To the best of my knowledge, old Rengar had quite a bit of complexity in his kit and play style. The idea that Rengar was a triple-Q-instagib-bot was probably never correct.

However this ability of his overshadowed all other arguments in any of the discussions I've had with his mains.

3

Assuming we are looking for middle ground, Rengar ends up as an assassin. This means that Rengar should be able to kill specifically the ADC if they 1v1 (if there is no interference from the ADC's team).

Imperial Japan1 votes

{quoted}

1

To the best of my knowledge, old Rengar had quite a bit of complexity in his kit and play style. The idea that Rengar was a triple-Q-instagib-bot was probably never correct.

However this ability of his overshadowed all other arguments in any of the discussions I've had with his mains.

3

Assuming we are looking for middle ground, Rengar ends up as an assassin. This means that Rengar should be able to kill specifically the ADC if they 1v1 (if there is no interference from the ADC's team).

  1. It really wasn't but people won't believe as such

  2. The middle ground isn't that Rengar stays an assassin. Him being an assassin is part of his kit. The really middle ground would be how his abilities work

Aptest1 votes

It really wasn't but people won't believe as such

I am not a rengar player. But i talked to quite a few of them and they all confirm that there is a lot of strategy into how to skill him and how to use the skills.

however, this is separate from what is the high point of Rengar. What is expected from a Rengar by his players. What is annoying to the people on the other team.

In all my explorations of this topic, mechanical complexity appears as a good nice to have or as a red herring to derail conversations away from "QQQ-dead".

whereas QQQ-dead is the must-have.

The middle ground isn't that Rengar stays an assassin. Him being an assassin is part of his kit. The really middle ground would be how his abilities work

the specific function of his abilities is irrelevant. What is important is what qualities he brings to the game, what kind of high and low points does he generate for his players, and what kind of low and high points does he generate for the players on the other team. In addition to that what other qualities he has that are endearing. What kind of power fantasy he is fulfilling? Does he fill the theme that he is supposed to fill?

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