Annie reason as to why Veigars instastun is toxic, yet Annies isnt?

BranchofSin5580·Apr 21, 2015·17 votes·1,611 views

Annieone?

25 Comments

JJI744Apr 22, 201512 votes

Basically, unlike Veigar, Annie can't sit on her stun unless she farms with AAs only. (Which is just about not an option for mages anymore)

That would be midlane. Support is a whole other matter. Riot has been trying to nerf support Annie without destroying her midlane viability, to some success.

lB2kGRlc8yApr 22, 20154 votes

Well, at least they're trying not to ruin her mid laning solely off of how her support is, Veigar didn't get such consideration.

stuartk11Apr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Basically, unlike Veigar, Annie can't sit on her stun unless she farms with AAs only. (Which is just about not an option for mages anymore)

That would be midlane. Support is a whole other matter. Riot has been trying to nerf support Annie without destroying her midlane viability, to some success.

Support Annie is annoying to play against. I think that they should change her power from her early game damage and add it to her mid game (or even just 3 ranks into the spell) or AP ratios. I don't know.

doiminat0r3600Apr 23, 20151 votes

Change the stun timer to a leveling stun timer .5/.75/1/1.25/1.5 at levels 3/7/11/15/18 and decrease her AA range to where its the range of her Q, then itll start being better to play against. As it is, its almost an instakill for the ADC if she stuns you with a level 2 Q W combo.

stuartk11Apr 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Change the stun timer to a leveling stun timer .5/.75/1/1.25/1.5 at levels 3/7/11/15/18 and decrease her AA range to where its the range of her Q, then itll start being better to play against. As it is, its almost an instakill for the ADC if she stuns you with a level 2 Q W combo.

Not sure if it's something that serious. Probably have her able to hold it for around 8 seconds and build off of 3 stacks rather than 4. Would let Mage Annie use her spells more often without feeling bad, and making support Annie less obnoxious. Don't know though, since her Q is still the way it is. I'm sure they'll be able to figure something out with changes to her Q.

CindikleApr 22, 20159 votes

Range Area of Effect Requires no setup Doesn't limit using other abilities No visual it's coming before the cast

Annie's stun does have a lot of counterplay and down sides to holding it. But it does come with it's own problems.

I think the best fix is to reduce the stun duration by half if not used in 4-6 seconds. Using E will refresh the duration(since it doesn't consume the passive).

This requires her to maintain the stun or have it become weaker.

What it'd do to her playstyle is make her either save her E to proc it or land a Q or W before using R. Holding on to her passive for a flash R wont work as well. If the enemy has vision of her activating her passive in lane they can back off for a few seconds for it to weaken.

Sir ArmaMalumApr 21, 20154 votes

First off, nice FEK avatar and pun. Kudos.

To the actual point, annie has to:

have her passive up to stun
use an ultimate grade cooldown (or use her W at a much closer range)
have a much smaller effective radius than Veigar's cage

ValyrianBladeApr 21, 20151 votes

Well, Annie gets the option of using her stun on any of 3 abilities (only 1 of which is her ultimate, and one of which is single target but is targeted and fairly long range). She can get her passive up way faster than Veigar's cage goes off cooldown especially once she has a point in molten shield. Finally, her stun is a better AOE than Veigar's cage as his really is a cage to keep you there but doesn't stun you (he has to land it on the edge to actually stun you, which runs the risk of you dodging it as he goes to cast it). If you're inside the cage you can dodge most skillshots or even Zhonya's for the duration it is up.

Honestly, I think Annie is fine to deal with when she's even/behind but is one of the most obnoxious champions in the game when even slightly ahead. I mean, the ONLY counterplay to her targeted stun + burst 100-0 combo is to stay out of range of her (unless you buy a QSS). How is not being in range counterplay?

Sir ArmaMalumApr 22, 20151 votes

Valid points, however you have more wiggle room when it comes to ultimates because the trade-off of the large cooldowns they have. The only comparable stun Annie has to old Veigars stun is her ultimate+passive combo, as old Veig stun had 1050 effective max range and Annie has a 890 effective max range. Both are fairly long range and staying out of them is hard I agree but old veig could stun someone from outside their vision range without even being in a bush. Not healthy. Annie ult+passive has counterplay in the fact that

Your team can simply stay spread out easier (290 radius on Annie ult vs. 350 radius on Veig W)
There is a comparatively large window of time she can't use her ultimate (passive yes, ultimate no)
If she is saving her stun for her ult on a teamfight she cannot use her other spells, meaning she vulnerable to poke or else you can bait out her passive and jump on her then

I don't really compare her other spell+passive combos with old veig stun because they were either short range or not instant, making it much easier to play around. (Still annoying, but at least you could plan/react around it)

Also, the fact you weren't stunned in the middle of Veif stun is less of a factor than you'd think, you're still limiting movement of several people and it's seriously easy to stun the target you want anywhere between the 0-1050 range. Such as the adc. And there really wasn't anything someone could do about it with a QSS or Veil.

The SoulforgedApr 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FG7tgLK9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-21T23:34:11.497+0000)

First off, nice FEK avatar and pun. Kudos.

To the actual point, annie has to:

have her passive up to stun

use an ultimate grade cooldown (or use her W at a much closer range)

have a much smaller effective radius than Veigar's cage

Veigar's stun however, was not true aoe. The stun created a set of walls that stunned, and you could avoid that at times. Annie, however gets to have an actual aoe stun with no cast time, resulting in some crazy stuff without the range though. Stacking Annie's passive is a lot easier than stacking Veigar's passive as well.

AbyssphereApr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Veigar's stun however, was not true aoe. The stun created a set of walls that stunned, and you could avoid that at times. Annie, however gets to have an actual aoe stun with no cast time, resulting in some crazy stuff without the range though. Stacking Annie's passive is a lot easier than stacking Veigar's passive as well.

How do you stack Veigar's passive?

The SoulforgedApr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

How do you stack Veigar's passive?

MB, I meant the cd of his stun.

DurzakaApr 22, 20151 votes

Just an FYI (I agree with your post) Her W has a LONGER range than her ult, not the other way around.

AbyssphereApr 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Just an FYI (I agree with your post) Her W has a LONGER range than her ult, not the other way around.

While that's true, the AOE of Tibbers means that if cast at max range, the AOE will outrange that of W.

qetzelApr 22, 20152 votes

Along with what everyone else has said, it may not be as easy to fix Annie. Tibbers is an ultimate - it is allowed to be that powerful - and even if you were to put a delay on it she would still have W.

ZmuecatApr 22, 20151 votes

The reason I see almost constantly on this board, which I'm sure everyone else has already said, is that Annie has to use the stun if she wants to farm minions (with spells, at least).

I don't pry too far into the logic because I think it's bullshit, but I'm also not an Annie player and I don't know if her AA range is good enough to offset the ability to stun on command from one of three spells: A single target, a cone AoE, and the Tibbers summon which has a good deal of health and a sunfire aura.

Bane of IgnorancApr 22, 20151 votes

She has the longest AA range of any mage, she can farm safely with autos. That range is also why she is a nuisance as support. I can manage the stun better than the autos.

FadedpfApr 22, 20151 votes

Veigars stun in a fight is an instant death or insane zone. You either dont fight or get stunned and die, and the teammates that do get stunned are gone before you can help. His stun also didnt take and preporation. It is a non ultimate stun that has more range than annie, she must be close or flash to do anything while sitting on 4 stacks. Not to mention veigar has 3 nukes tied with his non ultimate aoe stun to 1 shot supports, ap mid laners, adcs.

CenturosApr 22, 20151 votes

Because ult?

bradApr 22, 20151 votes

because veigar was starting to see play in the pro scene

there is no other reason

LlaniteApr 22, 20151 votes

Annie does not:

+Have 1000 AP +Her stun isn't up 100% or has to forfeit cs. i.e. laner has a window opportunity to poke, jungler has a chance to gank. +Her ult doesnt have 2.0 AP ratio.

lB2kGRlc8yApr 22, 20151 votes

Who in the game has a 2.0 ratio?

AbyssphereApr 22, 20151 votes