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"X is fine, X doesn't need changes"

BranchofSin5580·5/12/2015, 6:15:28 PM·137 votes·7,486 views

Listen up.

If a champion is nowhere to be seen, even when the Meta heavily favors that exact champion, it means said champion is not "fine".

Look at Trundle. Trundle is supposed to be the fucking Messiah that will bring an end to the tank Meta, yet he doesn't see play.

Why is that? Because, despite being "good", he is not "good" enough to compete with champions that shouldn't even be picked in the first place.

Trundle is not "fine", he is "weak", just face it.

That's why he is getting some buffs on the PBE, despite not being major changes, they might still push him into the Meta he should thrive on again.

Same with Koggers. Kog'maw is supposed to be at his strongest in this Meta, he can arguably carry harder than Vayne due to his extremely long range and having a utility tank team protecting him. The decline of the Assassins also helps.

However, Kog'maw doesn't need buffs, infact, any buffs to our cute little Koggy would probably break him in Competitive play, let alone in SoloQ.

So why does Jinx have both more Popularity and Win rate than Koggers, because Jinx is horribly overtuned.

She is infact so overtuned, she has sat on this 53-54% win rate forever, hell, she even peaked 55% win rate during the Assassin Meta, the Meta she is supposed to be at her weakest, considering she doesn't have an actual escape tool.

And no, her high Popularity doesn't come from her being "fun to play", despite that being a factor to be considered aswell.

And why is "Fun" such a Minor factor in Jinx case? Because of her Win rate.

There are many champions played because they are fun to play.

Lee Sin is very fun to play, but there are not that many people able to play him to his full potential.

That's why Lee Sin himself has High Popularity, yet Low Win Rate.

People keep picking him, not because they have a high chance of winning a game but because Lee Sin himself bring enjoyment to the player.

The same applies to Vayne.

Her Win rate is around 50% because the Meta is in her favor. She used to be around 44-47% before the Cinderhulk Changes.

But why is her Popularity so high? Because she is fun to play.

Power usually drifts into 4 different directions.

Low popularity and low win rate - Garbage champions, only a few can make them work due to the nature of their kit. Such as Elise.

Low popularity but high win rate - Good champions, people don't play them much due to them being hard or the Meta not benefiting them. Their win rate is high because only people who trully know how to abuse their power to full extent are playing them. Many of them are absolutely cancerous to deal with because of how little you can do against a well played Swain in early laning, since he has weaknesses but they are not so easily exploited as someone like, Garen.

High popularity and low win rate - Fun to play champions, people keep picking them because they are fun and not because they win games by themselves, Lee Sin is the prime example.

High popularity and high win rate - Most of them are either broken by default such as Jinx or favored by the Meta like Sejuani. The worst thing about these champions is that some of them are the very worst type of what one would call "overpowered", they are "fun".

What do you get when you have a FUN champion overpowered as all fucks?

An oversensitive playerbase who ignore the champions overwhelming strengths which largely overcomes any weakness they may find.

Oh, and many downvotes from those same people.

But that's fine.

This is the Gameplay & Balance Gold & Below board we are talking about

Here we just ask for Sona buffs and complain about Zed and shit.

TL;DR

Jinx is freelo

147 Comments

The5lacker5/12/2015, 9:25:51 PM17 votes

Knee-jerk reactionary balance is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Mandang05/12/2015, 8:38:03 PM15 votes

"Same with Koggers" "However, Kogmaw doesn't need buffs" - You lost me there. You can't work the same argument opposite ways.

If you'd argue that Jinx's strength is keeping Kogmaw down, then why can't I dismiss your call for Trundle buffs under the explanation that the tanks he competes with are simply overtuned as well?

Unfortunately, your post that started out looking so insightful seems to have just boiled down to an opinion of which champs are OP and which aren't (just like so many other posts). I don't disagree that Jinx is overtuned, but I'm not convinced the tanks aren't also overtuned in this meta. I also don't see how you can say Sej is simply 'favored by this meta', but when Jinx succeeds in it the explanation changes to 'she's freelo'.

You might be onto something here, but you need a better argument behind it.

Karcist5/12/2015, 6:39:25 PM12 votes

Trundle's anti tank capabilities are massively overrated.

LifeCyclesTWA5/12/2015, 6:46:12 PM11 votes

I may be complete and utterly wrong, but I always felt Trundle had an amazing kit but that no one would ever want to master it because how ugly he is. He needs a massive VU/a badass looking skin. All of his skins are trash and he is very hideous.

Anyways, great post.

JustMyBassCannon5/12/2015, 7:46:43 PM6 votes

Trundle just never really hit popularity. He always has been a strong champion, but he's like the Ashe of bruisers--which became a more fitting analogy with his retconned lore.

Jinx is not fine, I'll agree there. She's a bit above average, and it's her turn for nerfs.

Critmaster Garen5/12/2015, 6:23:43 PM5 votes

i kindof have a problem with trundle.

hes an anti bruiser/anti tank - bruiser. i feel like if he was strong, he would be unstoppable against half the champions in this game.

the problem is, its really hard to itemize against him, without him having turn your own strengths against you. build damage? he chunks you with q and steals ad. build resistances? thats only gonna screw you over, as he steals them when he ults. build hp? not an option either, as most trundles build bork.

im not sure what actually beats him. maybe a squishy ap who deals consistent damage like cassiopeia? just dont let him come into melee range.

maybe nasus can outsustain him, and kindof counter with wither. the damage he gets from ad on his q has little impact compared to the stacks hes building. so that might work. i havent tried that yet.

BluePolarizer5/12/2015, 7:48:27 PM5 votes

Jinx is pretty OP. if she gets fed she can actually facetank Zed and kill him without dying due to her insane damage and BT if she traps on herself as Zed ults to prevent him from escaping. I don't know of another ADC in the game that can facetank Zed.

largefish5/12/2015, 8:50:42 PM5 votes

You can have your opinion but I don't want anyone coming near my nocturne with "buffs". In this climate, buffs mean removing all the fun aspects of a champion's kit and overloading one ability, then nerfing everything else. (see zilean, cassiopeia, veigar, and many more)

The Bearded Bard5/12/2015, 6:51:36 PM4 votes

The only thing keeping Jinx as broken as she is, is her Q rockets. They give way too much. Yes, you sacrifice some attack speed, but but you also get a crazy amount of range, extra damage, aoe, and on top of all that, the extra damage CRITS, the aoe damage CRITS. This is the problem with Jinx, all of that other stuff is fine, but the extra damage should not crit, and the aoe damage should not crit.

Riot talks about how they don't like the idea of adc players "crit fishing" by poking with autoattacks and waiting for a crit to engage. How can they not see that Jinx is the absolute Queen of Crit Fishing? She pokes from afar and if she gets a crit while the enemy team is bunched up, 3/5ths of the enemy team is now half health because the AOE crit. It's ridiculous.

SirLapse5/12/2015, 10:00:00 PM2 votes

Trundle is effectively harder to play than something like Zac or Shyvana. You miss your E or even place it wrongly in one area, chances are that you're going to lose a trade or teamfight. People don't build him effectively so that they have some damage along with his free tankiness from ultimate, so there's that normally encountered issue as well (Garen players do this so often that I expect most Trundle players to do so).

What about Jinx? Let's see here:

  1. Easy to play (ridiculously).
  2. Long range kit with some early game dueling potential.
  3. Extremely powerful zone control when being chased (not many carries even have this option).

Now take Kog'Maw fresh on the carry meta:

  1. Activate W to remain safe, farm with W if necessary.
  2. Damage scales regardless of items (meaning he will have potential kill power as long as he's alive).
  3. Armor Shred.
  4. An ultimate that is equivalent to Nidalee spear in that they will not stop coming but you still need to dodge them.

Kog'Maw is extremely unsafe now because of the support meta changing. Nautilus support? If Kog'Maw gets caught even once then he's DEAD. Or at least extremely chunked. He already does terribly against all-in supports. Jinx? No, not so much. She has stun grenades that allow her some safety.

This is yet another meta-based argument that holds no actual meaning within gameplay. The moment you used win-rates to describe anything past "this champion is liked/played" is the moment this changed to a rage thread.

Present some actual evidence that doesn't involve ambiguous numbers next time and maybe it'll mean something to people who AREN'T emotionally involved with this issue.

BeerOfRoot48435/12/2015, 11:58:49 PM1 votes

You sound like you know what you're talking about. So I'm curious, what do you think should be done to Jinx to fix her?