The problem with nerfing champs because of a strong mastery is...

ZGM Dazzling·Dec 6, 2015·35 votes·3,206 views

Now if wanna play with Stormraiders Surge you still get nerfed.

55 Comments

Aeolian MelodiesDec 6, 201528 votes

The problem with nerfing a mastery that's broken on one single champion is that you ruin it for all the other champions on whom the mastery is balanced.

See: Soraka and Windspeaker. If they end up gutting the mastery, they'll hit all other healers/shielders that aren't breaking the game with the mastery but did enjoy the buff.

Sona PingDec 7, 20152 votes

Then that just means that they should fix their mastery and help assist all the other healers who are doing so poorly to the extent that they need said broken mastery.

Aeolian MelodiesDec 7, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F4FXtAxi,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-07T01:16:00.640+0000)

Then that just means that they should fix their mastery and help assist all the other healers who are doing so poorly to the extent that they need said broken mastery.

But the mastery is not broken. Soraka is broken and the mastery further enhance her state of brokenness.

manbearswineDec 7, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F4FXtAxi,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-07T01:54:45.770+0000)

But the mastery is not broken. Soraka is broken and the mastery further enhance her state of brokenness.

Nah,both the mastery and soraka are broken.

Mind you most of the champions who benefit the most from it could use the buff anyway,so...eh

Aeolian MelodiesDec 7, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Nah,both the mastery and soraka are broken.

Mind you most of the champions who benefit the most from it could use the buff anyway,so...eh

You don't see Janna Sona Nami breaking the game with it.

manbearswineDec 7, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F4FXtAxi,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-07T13:24:12.835+0000)

You don't see breaking the game with it.

And where were these guys before this mastery?(honestly,I would be surprised to see much of them when things settle down(not that it would stop riot from nerfing them/the mastery,as we all know: riot works in mysterious ways)) As I've said,mastery is broken,but most of the people using it needed the buffs anyway,so...eh

Aeolian MelodiesDec 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And where were these guys before this mastery?(honestly,I would be surprised to see much of them when things settle down(not that it would stop riot from nerfing them/the mastery,as we all know: riot works in mysterious ways)) As I've said,mastery is broken,but most of the people using it needed the buffs anyway,so...eh

Janna was, as she still is, a consistent pick in higher elo: http://champion.gg/champion/Janna she's pretty stable as always.

Sona was nowhere to be seen post gold elo, but her "comeback" is also in good part due to item 3303 being buffed, and its final upgrade, item 3092 , not sucking major balls. Her playrate is the biggest increase of them 3 http://champion.gg/champion/Sona but again, Windspeaker blessing is not the only factor benefiting her. Her highest win rate mastery set up does not even include it. Lichbane is both in her highest playrate and highest winrate core build, and the item arguably got buffed for her with the added CDR.

Nami's playrate has always been pretty stable, she increased only a little with 5.22 http://champion.gg/champion/Nami and she is also affected by the Spellthief buffs; she's still played less than the average support, not being a "facestomp" champ ( Annie / / Leona etc) and not having any inherently broken mechanics ( Thresh / TahmKench for instance).

manbearswineDec 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F4FXtAxi,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-08T01:33:53.058+0000)

Janna was, as she still is, a consistent pick in higher elo: http://champion.gg/champion/Janna she's pretty stable as always.

Her winrate rose 2%,that's pretty much why riot nerfed her last time. If you are referring to people not complaining,they didn't really complain last time either,that's not to say janna is a problem,as I don't think she was a problem before either,but she clearly rose in power.

Sona was nowhere to be seen post gold elo, but her "comeback" is also in good part due to being buffed, and its final upgrade, , not sucking major balls. Her playrate is the biggest increase of them 3 http://champion.gg/champion/Sona but again, Windspeaker blessing is not the only factor benefiting her. Her highest win rate mastery set up does not even include it. Lichbane is both in her highest playrate and highest winrate core build, and the item arguably got buffed for her with the added CDR.

She also lost talisman(which got basically deleted) to gain FQC,so no,she didn't really win there,the changes to lichbane are also of little relevance to her,most of her gain is from that mastery,but she deserved to be buffed anyway.

Nami's playrate has always been pretty stable, she increased only a little with 5.22 http://champion.gg/champion/Nami and she is also affected by the Spellthief buffs; she's still played less than the average support, not being a "facestomp" champ ( / / etc) and not having any inherently broken mechanics ( / for instance).

Winrate rose,also pickrate rose(both quite notably),mind you nami doesn't gain as much as others from windspeakers,as her heal does more than just heal,and doesn't hit as many targets as sona,she as well lost talisman and gained fqc,so that isn't particularly interesting either.

They all got stronger,they all were weak before(except soraka,but we aren't talking about soraka),YES EVEN JANNA,they won't just become overpowered from a mastery alone since they were too far behind before,and still are behind now(except maybe janna).

Also don't bash support annie,she isn't faceroll,she's not even strong,she just has synergy with kalista,that's the only reason we saw her at worlds.

Aeolian MelodiesDec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Her winrate rose 2%,that's pretty much why riot nerfed her last time. If you are referring to people not complaining,they didn't really complain last time either,that's not to say janna is a problem,as I don't think she was a problem before either,but she clearly rose in power.

She also lost talisman(which got basically deleted) to gain FQC,so no,she didn't really win there,the changes to lichbane are also of little relevance to her,most of her gain is from that mastery,but she deserved to be buffed anyway.

Winrate rose,also pickrate rose(both quite notably),mind you nami doesn't gain as much as others from windspeakers,as her heal does more than just heal,and doesn't hit as many targets as sona,she as well lost talisman and gained fqc,so that isn't particularly interesting either.

They all got stronger,they all were weak before(except soraka,but we aren't talking about soraka),YES EVEN JANNA,they won't just become overpowered from a mastery alone since they were too far behind before,and still are behind now(except maybe janna).

Also don't bash support annie,she isn't faceroll,she's not even strong,she just has synergy with kalista,that's the only reason we saw her at worlds.

I'm not referring to people "not complaining", I'm referring to the fact that pre-5.22 Janna was already considered a strong pick in higher elo with her peel and BF sword shield. She wasn't "MIA" as you seem to believe.
Sona didn't build Talisman in lane - she always had superior synergy with items due to her poking nature. It is by far the one who synergizes the most with her playstyle. Any buff to Spellthief and its upgrades is an indirect buff to Sona because it's always been her favored gold income item. Lichbane, while I don't build it myself, seems to be a popular and successful pick on her, the fact that it gained CDR is a good point for her. As for her synergy with WIndspeaker, while I do use the mastery myself, her highest winrate mastery set up opts for Thunderlord's instead, so I don't think it's Windspeaker that's helping her so much.
Nami, like Sona, has better synergy with Spellthief's items as it complements her playstyle better than the passivity and lack of combat stats of the Coin and its upgrades. Her heal hits 2 people like Sona's (granted Sona has an aura shield but % increase on such a low base isn't doing much imo).
I did not say faceroll, I said facestomp. As in, if you're competent with her, you can cheese your way up the ladder easily because Annie's potential to stomp a lane with little to no contribution from her ADC, then either keep stomping or roam and stay ahead is huge. Compared to Nami who needs to land skillshots to CC, and who is hardly a threat by herself and needs her ADC to actually work with her to obtain the same effect. Mind you I do think she's a faceroll champion, but that's out of the discussion at hand.

manbearswineDec 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F4FXtAxi,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T02:10:58.550+0000)

I'm not referring to people "not complaining", I'm referring to the fact that pre-5.22 Janna was already considered a strong pick in higher elo with her peel and BF sword shield. She wasn't "MIA" as you seem to believe.

Views on her strength started to go bad after the nerfs,and eventually settled down on "not good anymore",I remember that due to watching streams at the time

Sona didn't build Talisman in lane

She doesn't build fqc in lane now either,as laning tends to end first.

she always had superior synergy with items due to her poking nature.It is by far the one who synergizes the most with her playstyle.

Through laning generally yes,but out of laning she had better synergy with talisman,as the speedboost allowed for better use of her ult.

Any buff to Spellthief and its upgrades is an indirect buff to Sona because it's always been her favored gold income item.

Unless that buff is accompanied with a nerf to talisman.

Lichbane, while I don't build it myself, seems to be a popular and successful pick on her, the fact that it gained CDR is a good point for her. As for her synergy with WIndspeaker, while I do use the mastery myself, her highest winrate mastery set up opts for Thunderlord's instead, so I don't think it's Windspeaker that's helping her so much.

Sona always had ways to easily cap cdr,ranged supports never had issues with cdr itemization,as far as winrates with masteries go,the sample size is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too small to tell anything.

Nami, like Sona, has better synergy with Spellthief's items as it complements her playstyle better than the passivity and lack of combat stats of the Coin and its upgrades. Her heal hits 2 people like Sona's (granted Sona has an aura shield but % increase on such a low base isn't doing much imo).

It's not the increase on sona shields,it's that she can spam the armor/mr boost on her entire team,oh,and that shield really isn't low. ...I wonder what's gonna be with alistar... Nami probably did gain from fqc,but as I've said,she doesn't make as much use out of windspeakers to begin with.

I did not say faceroll, I said facestomp. As in, if you're competent with her, you can cheese your way up the ladder easily because Annie's potential to stomp a lane with little to no contribution from her ADC, then either keep stomping or roam and stay ahead is huge. Compared to Nami who needs to land skillshots to CC, and who is hardly a threat by herself and needs her ADC to actually work with her to obtain the same effect. Mind you I do think she's a faceroll champion, but that's out of the discussion at hand.

Yeah have fun outtrading nami on annie without the adc helping,or easily poking against a tank,yes if the enemy lane is afk you will stomp it,but any champion can do that,aside from that-she's pretty good with kalista,that's it.

ThumpinDec 7, 20155 votes

The masteries are new and are obviously going to shake things up a bit. Assuming they stick around it's entirely reasonable to rebalance champions around the new masteries. I don't get people who just demand that old champions remain untouched despite a new addition pushing them over the edge. The objective isn't to gut them, it's to bring them in line with the way the game is currently played.

Sona PingDec 7, 20151 votes

Let me put it this way:

You have Situation #1 as the status of everything. Everything is fine and hunky-dory.
A new element, Element A, is introduced.
A bunch of crap breaks and causes a bunch of problems.

Now, logically, this heavily implies that Element A is the real problem. It caused things to break and made more problems, after all. So again, logically the best thing to do would be to fix that element especially if you are intending to keep it around.

If a window is broken, the sensible thing to do is to just fix the window, not turn up the thermostat to try to counter-act that.

I don't get people who just demand that old champions remain untouched despite a new addition pushing them over the edge.... it's to bring them in line with the way the game is currently played.

Because they were in-line with how the game is played because, after all, it is "a new addition pushing them over the edge", not anything else.

Porta NovaDec 7, 20153 votes

What's the point of it existing when it's so powerful that every healer should take it? Why not just buff every healer and not punish the poor noob that might be dumb enough not to take it.

The Bearded BardDec 7, 20151 votes

The reason soraka is so strong right now is the new masteries on top of the fact that GW now doesn't effect her heals. You can't gut GW and expect powerful healers not to be strong.

KotexDec 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F4FXtAxi,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-06T19:53:02.207+0000)

The problem with nerfing a mastery that's broken on one single champion is that you ruin it for all the other champions on whom the mastery is balanced.

See: Soraka and Windspeaker. If they end up gutting the mastery, they'll hit all other healers/shielders that aren't breaking the game with the mastery but did enjoy the buff.

Thats WAY too much common sense for riot.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs] But at least you get it

Faith BreakerDec 6, 201510 votes

that nerfing the champion leaves them exceptionally weak when using other masteries, and spotlights a problem with the masteries themselves and not the champion. But hey Riot is perfect man can't complain about a free game right.

ErockandrollDec 6, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Faith Breaker,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F4FXtAxi,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-06T19:59:56.985+0000)

that nerfing the champion leaves them exceptionally weak when using other masteries, and spotlights a problem with the masteries themselves and not the champion. But hey Riot is perfect man can't complain about a free game right.

the problem their is that, many champions are balanced around doing one thing really well. Then their power curve is based entirely on one particular Mastery. Yet the masteries, need to set the base line for champs that fit that particular style. Which is why the outlIers need to be toned down.

Then there's the inverse problem. If you nerf the mastery and champ A is still good. Then the problem would be the champ, while every other champ gets nerfed thanks to that mastery.

Faith BreakerDec 6, 20156 votes

Except no, the champions have all been around for anywhere to one to four/five years. If a mastery is nerfed and champ A is still good, Champ A is balanced and the masteries are not. Any argument where you tie in the balance of a champ to the new masteries is inherently wrong. The new masteries are the recent change, the balance issue lies with them. You have to balance the Masteries AROUND the Champs, not balance Champs AROUND the Masteries. Do you understand?

qetzelDec 7, 20156 votes

Not necessarily true. If you want to change a system then obviously some champions will be affected more positively than others.

The change to the mastery system is arguably good - the power granted by the masteries is noticeable. For a large number of champions, the power is in the right place - not too strong, not too weak. It therefore makes more sense to keep the masteries and balance the outliers than it does to remove the masteries or balance them independently making far more champions weaker than you need to.

Faith BreakerDec 7, 20151 votes

Well, let us say we have both brought to light more then one view point on the subject =)

3TWarriorDec 7, 20152 votes

lol...riot gave yasuo free life steal, nerfed twisted fate, a universal favorite, never complained about champion, nerfed swain, a champ no one played(apologies to the Swain lovers out there, I like him too), mundo and rammus, champions who were formerly around 40-50% win rate became 60%, graves is an unconditional ban containing ridiculously high burst, ridiculously high sustained damage, and tank base stats;

the only champions riot took precautions with that I can remember for this update are: Ashe and Kogmaw

ashe's critical system was reworked and her Q is now even weaker when she can't be in a sustained fight and kogmaw was an unintentional change due to his very high carry potential late game, but late game hardly comes around anymore when the opponents can be in your base at 20 minutes

this season is fun, sure, but they're messing with some of the fundamentals of league

AnidanDec 7, 20153 votes

Just posting to comment that TF has been complained about a LOT in the past. The only reason people don't complain now is because there's much bigger fish to whine about breaking your line.

Remember: everyone has been complained about. Even that champion that immediately popped into your mind to try to contest that assertion.

3TWarriorDec 8, 20151 votes

I recall actually, mostly about the success of his gold card.

I like twisted fate because he is reliable in a team fight for damage and single target crowd control, but most people complain about his laning phase where his gold card is not at optimal effect

compared to most mages, his damage is also quite low, but as I stated, he makes up for that in a team fight and when late game arrives his ratios make him feel more like a burst champ than a mage, but while on cooldown(as any mage), his damage is significantly reduced and forces a vulnerable situation

though there's no point to arguing about it, as most of riot's decisions have been set in stone

ZGM DazzlingDec 7, 20151 votes

actually used to be a brand main lol...

Porta NovaDec 7, 20158 votes

Yeah it's a huge problem for me with the new masteries. They are way too strong and specialized. There is zero choice for most champions on which one they should be using as other options are radically sub par. Now if they're getting into nerfing champions based on the strength of them it's escalating the problem. Is that what masteries should be? A giant noob trap? Might as well not even have them if you have no choice in which ones you take.

RaithofhelDec 7, 20153 votes

^ this right here is right on, but won't be listened to. The idea of 'meaningful choices' is a joke on 80% of champs.

AnidanDec 7, 20151 votes

The idea of 'meaningful choices' when it comes to masteries/talents on most games at all is a joke. There is almost always an objective 'best' build for your goal.

RaithofhelDec 7, 20156 votes

So as a quick disclaimer, I'm a super-casual ranked player and by no means a grinder in competitive; I climb the bottom to the top of Bronze and then quit for ARAM since they refuse to let the other fun modes stay out longer. But I've also been in occasional ranked games since s2. I picked up for a dozen games in s2, and started maining him in s3. In s3 I was 34-31 (52%), in s4 I was 24-18 (57%), and last season I mained him hard going 45-30 (60%). My next most played Ranked champ last season was jinx at 16 games.

As soon as the preseason update came out, I was upset first and foremost because I could tell immediately that despite making no changes to Brand himself, and despite the fact that the mana pot removal actually hurt Brand a decent little bit, the mastery changes was so strong on him that they were gonna nerf him. It took 1 whopping game for me to tell.

People who say that Brand has always been OP or is designed wrong are just ignorant. No clue what they are talking about. But for the last couple season and the last several 'balance' (TM) updates Riot has made, they never ever actually reconsider their whole design once they implement it - they just 'fix' the shit out of whatever makes it not work. So I can already tell you that they wont adjust their mastery system update unless it fails for an entire season - and more than a few champs get gutted. That's how they role. If you don't like the direction Riot has been taking for the last season or two (I, as an older player, hate the hell out of it), too bad. I can promise that Brand will get smacked. And since he is frankly an old and immobile champ (this is a weakness, but it makes for less flashy plays so Riot doesn't care much) who doesn't do a lot of fancy looking (key-word) wombo-combos, they will probably nerf the hell out of him and let him fall to non-viable.

And as a long time Brand main, I will probably quit Ranked for good and just dick around in fun modes. But the writing is on the wall for this one.

3TWarriorDec 7, 20152 votes

lol, then there's poor DrMundo , he's been almost untouched ever since season 2 to 3, now his winrates have skyrocketed because he can actually perform his role as a stick to them fighter

he's not a burst fighter(jax or riven), he's not a tanky fighter (nasus, renekton, lee sin, reksai), he's not a trade-winner (aatrox, tryndamere, olaf, and several others)

he became strong mostly because tank stats were nerfed at the same time marksmen damage was, allowing his sustained sticktoitiveness to keep him in the fray long enough now that he makes a difference

mundo, the original ubertank...he's doing his job, just like rammus, yet...there's talk of nerfs in the air X.X

Pup BaeDec 7, 20158 votes

Except DrMundo E was heavily buffed. and tanks got hugely buffed with the mastery/item changes. Also DrMundo is very tanky and he wins trades easily.

Merkel x TsiprasDec 7, 20153 votes

Brand is retarded and need nerfs one Q and you lose 2/3 of your hp after the dots

SO FU dude that you pretend that brand is balanced or how much you were playing brand before preseason

When your account have 0 brand games the last 5 seasons and you only brand now

SO GTFO from here

RaithofhelDec 7, 20155 votes

willing to bet you never complained about Brand until this season either. Except now 'he is retarded because I can't ~~dodge skillshots~~ err, ~~don't know his E range~~, I mean.... F it, NERF HIS SAME AS LAST SEASON WHEN NOBODY PLAYED HIM ASS!

Merkel x TsiprasDec 7, 20153 votes

i explain why he need nerfs this SEASON because atm one Q takes AWAY 2/3 of your hp after the dots WHICH THAT WASENT A THING BEFORE THE PRESEASON

SO YEAH HE NEED NERFS along with the mastery because if youdont nerf brand and nerf the mastery only you will need TO DESTROY the mastery in order brand to be normal again

THAT HOW THE THINGS work

3TWarriorDec 7, 20153 votes

that's a flaw with the mastery system, not brand...his damage was already that high but no one played him because he was immobile and had a conditional crowd control for one enemy

now, he gained a significant unintended buff to his damage and people want him nerfed for what the mastery caused

examples of last season dread for brand: zed, ekko, leblanc, chogath, ezreal, talon, anivia, ahri, diana, fizz, velkoz, VEIGAR!!!

potential dread: xerath, ziggs, twisted fate, morgana, malzahar, GALIO

quick question, how is it the champion's fault when literally every matchup EXCEPT yasuo and katarina would outperform him in the game

his damage is all he had

thankfully they mostly nerfed the mastery, but a nerf to him hurts as well, even if only slightly

TransgressorDec 7, 20155 votes

I don't really see an argument here. You're listing assasin matchups against Brand, Veigar(what for, he hurts everything with alot of AP), Chogath, Galio, immobile mages that function the same way he does.

What is the point? Twisted Fate has a conditional crowd control for one enemy, Xerath as well, Leblanc as well. Brand's raw waveclear can only be matched by Xerath and Ziggs, the others need items to do what those 3 do so naturally. He's extremely safe and error friendly.

He has a low skill floor, he's very easy to get familiar with, he barely has a learning incline of 8%(nowhere near a curve to beggin with) and a somewhat high skill cap because he requires great positioning and decision making. Ofcourse, to get to that point you don't really have to master any of his mechanics in particular, you just have to be good at the game and his type of champion in general, which in turn hurts his mastery level.

He's not really heavy about mechanics, unless you count 2 skillshots as mechanically intense. He is very flexible with his skills and his build paths.

quick question, how is it the champion's fault when literally every matchup EXCEPT yasuo and katarina would outperform him in the game

What now?! Where did you see that? A fed Yasuo is cancer as is Yasuo in general. Both Yasuo and Katarina, if bad, are a hinderance to the team and turn the game into a 6vs4. Brand's raw damage and the way he spreads it evenly across multiple enemies from the same spot is what makes him ridiculously powerfull; just sit at the back and combo your stuff. As for the unintended buff, I don't know; Riot's shown some rather extreme incompetence and incoherence when it comes to game balance for the past year and a half; last season was AIDS up untill post-cinderhulk nerfs where we had the greatest fun of the whole year for a couple of months and then it went back to shit. They have the money(disgusting amounts of it at that), the infrastructure and the workforce to handle such issues. You're telling me, they didn't know the isolated abuse cases of their masteries weren't known?

How on earth did they miss a mastery that can pop from Dots on champions that are built around Dots, and a mastery that pops from crits on champions that are built around crits? We have 4 dot champions that are extreme abuse cases: Anivia Cassiopeia Swain , and 3 champions that are extreme crit-chance abuse cases: Yasuo Tryndamere MasterYi

They missed 7 isolated cases? You're partially aggreeing with this yourself, a couple of posts bellow where you talk about Swain, Twisted Fate and stuff.

3TWarriorDec 8, 20151 votes

I listed all mid-lane matchups a brand is likely to encounter

if he is support brand(which arose mostly as an off pick and can now function with the updated support items), then it is an entirely different role than his intended lane but not a role that will negatively impact his playstyle or the game

if they want to hit brand without hurting other supports, they should change his passive's coding so that it doesn't give him free gold in combination with spellthief

I only referenced that 2 champions (that I knew of) were actually changed to handle the new masteries and season

for instance, Ashe

the way the mastery was originally released, ashe would be able to heal 14 hp per auto attack at level 1 even against minions

Aeolian MelodiesDec 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

if they want to hit brand without hurting other supports, they should change his passive's coding so that it doesn't give him free gold in combination with spellthief

Let me tell you how to stop the abuse from Brand, Morgana and all other DoT champions with item 3303 without hurting in the slightest legit use of the item. Add this to its description and coding: "Tribute can only trigger once per champion hit per spell".

There you fucking go. Morgana and Brand now need to do more than tickle you with the tip of a spell to gain all three stacks, and champions/players who actually play aggro and use all the stacks via different spells and auto attacks don't even notice anything was changed.

3TWarriorDec 8, 20151 votes

well, they would have to change the passive still or else brand would still receive 2/3 of the stacks with one spell because his passive currently counts as a spell

it would be best to change everything so it's all in line XD

TransgressorDec 7, 20153 votes

So you're going to intentionaly ignore his point and selectively address him by mocking him out of context to show how wrong he is according to your standards, with headache inducing english to boot?

I don't care about the way he worded his argument, I'm not 12. But he made a valid point about the Brand experts sprouting like mushrooms out of nowhere talking bullshit. OP has had 38 games with Brand during season 4 with horrible cs, and 22 games during season 5 with the same horrible cs. He finished Bronze 1 in season 4, finished silver 4 for season 5 and now he's climbed up to silver 2. He has 910 freaking ranked games with a 50% winrate.

From this we can deduct that OP has nowhere near the skill and experience in general, and especially not with Brand in particular, to be able to talk and judge about Brand's state in the game.

Ooops, never mind, according to this https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Raithofhel you're a dedicated bronze Brand main, sorry for doubting your expertise.

Ayy lmao.

EcchiOtakuTMDec 7, 20152 votes

"The problem with nerfing the abuser then the abused item"-fixed

HabitzDec 7, 20152 votes

That extra 20 mama just makes brand so unplayable

TragicTrajectoryDec 7, 20151 votes

Make ~~Dfg~~ Deathfires Touch not work with passive abilities and give wind speaker's a non global range. TaDaaa

SeenanDec 7, 20151 votes

I honestly think if they just made Brand's stun scale up and maybe sinch the damage on his geyser (it just does too much damage atm), he'd be more in-line than he ever was. That 2s stun cd at all levels is brutal as all hell for melee champs that can hardly avoid it/foresee it.

PrinceOfStormsDec 7, 20152 votes

You do realize that if they made brand's stun actually scale with level he'd be able to permastun you, because the cooldown of his Q gets very low at max rank?

It'd be like Ryze, but worse because he'd be able to do it at any time.

Doctor JarvisDec 8, 20151 votes

I think he's saying it should scale up to 2, not scale up FROM 2

PrinceOfStormsDec 8, 20152 votes

But then that would destroy brand's ability to do his job, bully people out of lane. Also, 2 second stuns really aren't that cancerous, when they're both a skillshot that requires another ability to be landed first.

The thing is there's a lot of counterplay with Brand at the moment, because deathfire touch got nerfed, and nearly all of his damage comes from skillshots.

SpoofghoulDec 7, 20151 votes

My main issue with Riot's balancing is o look champ X has tons of winrate

NURF DA SHIT OUT OF IT!!!1!

But then they not only nerf what makes the champion strong DFT for example but also the champion itself along with other changes which also hurt the champion etc etc

And after 10 simultaneous nerfs the champion is no longer viable . . . Who would have thought. .

But the main issue here is that you, after all the simultaneous nerf wont know what actually made the champion do well and which nerf was the right one.

Riot could have just changed DFT without nerfing any of the champions whom benefitted the most and then see how it plays out. Or they could do the nerfs without changing the mastery or item(s) which make the champion(s) strong well you get the point.

It's like they never learn

Feral flare & Cinderhulk are some previous examples

HabitzDec 7, 20152 votes

20 mana is nerfing da shit out of it

Doctor JarvisDec 8, 20151 votes

They're nerfing DFT, and the Brand nerf is hardly even a nerf. Its like a love tap because they KNOW they're nerfing DFT

SpoofghoulDec 8, 20151 votes

Yes i know Brand is a lovetap nerf but. . It isn't just Brand who is getting nerfed Anivia Swain Malzahar to name a few.

These champions now get the nerfbat in their face because DFT made them strong. Similar to how jungle Sion got strong with cinderhulk, they nerfed him, his e got shafted his w got shafted but this primarily hit lane Sion jungle SIon still did somewhat ok even tho this changes hurt him alot then they nerfed cinderhulk. And don't forget about the nerfs to the items he used.

Instead of just nerf after nerf after nerf Riot can better just take thier time and see what it is which makes these champions strong rather then straight up nerf them.

If it is certain items or masteries, then a closer look at these first might be better. One thing at a time is just the better way to balance.

Sometimes metashifts cause champions to be strong like Rammus and Malphite are now. I believe somehwat the same is true for the dot champions.

All the champions whom are getting nerfed do quite well vs assasins and fighters, and those are abundant now. Their counters are currently not doing all that fantastic since the new masteries don't favor them.

The DFT nerfs would be enough to make these champions balanced again. The thing that is missing is a few good masteries for long range zone controll mages.