Rammus with 600 armor against a all ad team

ImTheSideKick·Feb 13, 2017·78 votes·7,996 views

Edit: Some one making posts about my post cant read it seems. never said anything about dying 1v5. its about losing over 400 armor just to enemy items. that's broken, period

Rammus used to be able to be able to tank all ad champions easily as he was meant to punish such comps

but now with the build every one seems to get turns that 600 armor into about 100

EDIT: its actually about 170 unless there are the following champs as shown below

and god forbit there are champions that have even more armor shreds in their kits like ... (he ignores armor but still same concept)

Edit: and I'm sure I'm missing a few

please riot. with the upcoming Tank patch. lets make tanks great again. low damage. high survivability . moderate to high cc / disruption .... tired of taking true damage even with 600 armor

126 Comments

EedatFeb 13, 201726 votes

If anyone is curious to the actual figures for 600 Armor, it looks like this.

Rammus (Lvl 18): 104 (base) + 496 (bonus) = 600

: 72.8 (base) + 347.2 (bonus) = 420
: 72.8 (base) + 190.96 = 263.76
Lethality (~70): 193.76

Now you're thinking "Wow! Thats like 400 armor gone!". But you should know that 194 Armor is still 80% damage reduction

As a 600 Armor Rammus, you still only take 20% physical damage

Now I'm not saying Armor Pen stacking isn't an issue, but to try to say " tired of taking true damage even with 600 armor" is complete bullshit

Spaceman5pffFeb 13, 20172 votes

Correct, but now do the math at a more realistic 400 armor.

You are down to about 90 armor if my memory serves me correctly.

DolasaurFeb 13, 20175 votes

OP specifically mentioned armor stacking against an all AD team. With runes, masteries, and Rammus W, getting to 600 isn't hard at full build.

agbudarFeb 13, 20176 votes

100 armor is 100% effective health 200 armor is 200% effective health 300 armor is 300% effective health 400 armor 400% effective health

losing 400 armor while having lets say 3k health is the equivalent of losing 12 k effective health the AD enemy team ignores. so how is that totally fine?

if the rammus has lets say 4 k hp instead its a whopping 16k of effective health that you ignored.

nm1010Feb 13, 20171 votes

People can only use the formula and they can't actually understand what the numbers mean which is probably half the reason why you are getting downvoted. The other half is because you are insinuating that % armor pen/reduction shouldn't be EXTREMELY effective vs a stacking armor target which is just false.

PB4UAMEFeb 14, 20171 votes

The other half is because you are insinuating that % armor pen/reduction should be EXTREMELY effective vs a stacking armor target which is just false.

Bruh, I don't even know where to fucking begin. . . You've done maths before right? You know what percentages are?

You realize if you remove a percentage of a higher number, you are removing more, than that same percentage of a lesser number right?

So, say you remove 45% of the bonus armor on a 600 armor Rammus who only has 104 base armor at 18. This gives him 496 bonus armor, of which you are removing 224 armor. If you have say, a Quinn with 150 armor, she'd only have 67 bonus armor, so she'd only lose 30 armor.

224 > 30 QED.

But, let's factor in EHP, as those above are. The formula for the effectiveness of armor, when moved around to calculate effective health is pEHP = [1 + (armor/100)]hp

Thus, removing 224 armor is then removing 2.24*(total hp) pEHP from Rammus.

Let's assume for the sake of easy math, that this Rammus has 4k hp (most armor items have a ton of health and his build here is all armor, so ~4k hp isn't much of a stretch though it may be a tad high depending upon runes/mastiers)

Thus, the armor pen in this example, factoring in just a LW item (but not the grievous wounds or LDR amplification) and nothing else is removing 2.24*(4,000hp) = 8,960 lost physical effective health.

Let's say that Quinn had 2k hp (1978 base hp, so easily obtainable through health seals, or vetern's scar's; not like she'd build much health-- particularly if the LW item was an LDR) then the armor pen is only removing .30*(2000hp) = 600 less physical effective health.

Again 8,960 > 600.

nm1010Feb 14, 20172 votes

I mistyped, you probably would've picked up on that if you looked at the comment above mine that was complaining how much armor rammus was losing from % pen and I was talking about why I downvoted him.

PB4UAMEFeb 15, 20171 votes

Oh, right, my apologies. . .

DolasaurFeb 13, 201720 votes

But you should know that 194 Armor is still 80% damage reduction

1 - (100 / (100 + 194)) = ~66% damage reduction

I mean, I totally agree with the sentiment of your post. But when you're calling someone out on excessive hyperbole, I feel the statement's a bit stronger with more precise values (like the first half of your post).

EedatFeb 13, 20171 votes

1 - (100 / (100 + 194))

Thats not the correct formula. The correct formula is here:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

DolasaurFeb 13, 201710 votes

O.o The wiki definitely confirms what I said.

"Damage multiplier: 100 / (100 + Armor) if Armor >= 0"

The 1- in front is just to change from 34% damage to 66% damage reduction.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 13, 20172 votes

meanwhile your damage against the lv 18 ADCs with 82 base armor (looked at jinx for reference) giving them 45% damage reduction without buying a single item. Your full build cuts their damage by a factor of 5, while their no defense cuts it by 2.

dunder killFeb 14, 20171 votes

Yeah but that 80 base armor is pretty much completely canceled out by lethality. Thats why the Rammus gets ~70% damage reduction while an ADC would take true damage essentially

AMYS GRAVEFeb 14, 20172 votes

I don't think you understand my post. Rammus has no lethality to apply to their adc unless you're really a forward thinker. I was pointing out the fact that Rammus's damage is reduced by armor too, so that reduction isn't one way.

dunder killFeb 14, 20171 votes

Rammus's damage is reduced by armor too

Armor doesn't reduce magic damage. Before you say it, every single ranged champion in the game with like 2 exceptions has 30 MR at level 18.

RatbertFeb 14, 20172 votes

Armor increases rammus' ad by a substantial amount so he ends up dealing a lot of physical damage.

ImTheSideKickFeb 14, 20172 votes

you forgot you can have 24 lethality runes

now you have 170

and then if you reduce it father from other means. like wu. garen. and j4 you can have next to no armor even as a ramus who built full armor to counter a team that armor is meant to counter

6SfoolFeb 13, 201714 votes

YESSS. Delete Last Whisper. And it's upgrades. I don't mind if tanks suffer very hard damage nerfs, just as long as they can actually be tanky.

DKM BismarckFeb 14, 20171 votes

Delete Void Staff, too, if we're removing the % arpen item designed for carries, we should then remove the % mpen item for carries, no? Because there are for fucking sure plenty of mages shredding tanks as well, it's not just ad champs, and nobody was complaining before Lethality got the EARLY GAME buffs. These items collectively were all as good at penetrating late game as they are right now, but because Lethality got buffed early game, on top of LW upgrades and BC actually being sort of OP, we get the same stupid post worded differently 7 times daily.

6SfoolFeb 14, 20173 votes

I don't have so much of a problem with void staff. It's much like cleaver in that it works with total armor, not just bonus armor. That way it affects everyone on about the same level. Plus it doesn't have much to stack with (and they lose out on a bunch of cool passives), seeing as there isn't as much magic pen available as there is lethality. Last whisper is just a big fuck you to anyone that is smart enough to counterbuild them, since bonus arpen is about the most bs stat in the game.

GigglesOFeb 13, 201712 votes

Ummm but There is mercurial to give mr, along with edge of the night... making W and tmail pretty much usless.

9kPluzZFeb 13, 20177 votes

"Wahhhhh, picking rammus into a full ad comp isn't a free win, waaahahhh"

ImTheSideKickFeb 13, 201775 votes

ramus was made to be a free win against all ad teams.

RewtFeb 13, 201710 votes

no he really wasnt. he was made to be EXTREMELY effective, but not a free win.

MelledoneusFeb 13, 201719 votes

Then please explain why stacking armor on him turns him into a melee ADC.

AimléssFeb 13, 20171 votes

Tanks completely shit on adcs all game, when the adc finally gets their full build and the tables are turned suddenly there's a problem? I'm not against balancing armor and penetration late game, but it needs to be balanced early game too. If you want to be tanky late, then you're gonna have to be killable early.

MelledoneusFeb 13, 201720 votes

{quoted}

Tanks completely shit on adcs all game, when the adc finally gets their full build and the tables are turned suddenly there's a problem?

You just contradicted yourself in that sentence. Nothing to see here.

I'm not against balancing armor and penetration late game, but it needs to be balanced early game too. If you want to be tanky late, then you're gonna have to be killable early.

They are killable early when they have no resistances. Or health. To be honest, the reason why lane bullies destroy tanks so hard in lane is because tanks have nothing but CC. No damage or tankiness early on.

I agree that armor should be able to be bypassed somehow, but what OP is saying is that people are actually rewarded for not balancing their damage types, and going full AD. You get punished heavily for going full AP team comp, why not for AD? Especially since Rammus, a tank whose job it is to make AD champions' lives miserable, is another easy kill for a poor team composition like that.

Snak3yesFeb 14, 20171 votes

What do you consider mao and poppy?

MelledoneusFeb 14, 20171 votes

Outliers whose numbers happen to be a bit too high.

SalronFeb 13, 20176 votes

Free wins don't exist in league

Tribbles FoxfolkFeb 13, 201733 votes

{quoted}

Wahhhhh, picking rammus into a full ad comp isn't a free win, waaahahhh

??? Did you even READ Rammus' kit? At all? He's LITERALLY called the "ARMOR-dillo". His abilities all punish AD enemies, including his damage scaling off of his Armor, which is supposed to be a counter to AD.

If the enemy picks a full AD team, then YES, Rammus SHOULD pretty much be a free win! But with how much Lethality and LW items shred through armor (LDR/Mortal Reminder + Battering Blows is around 52% Armor shred alone...), not even factoring some of the insane ADs that are building BC too. (+30% more Armor shredded.)

tl;dr: THE CHAMPION DESIGNED TO HARD-COUNTER ADs IS FAILING TO COUNTER ADs BECAUSE OF THE INSANE DAMAGE CREEP.

ModAcademy KaynFeb 13, 20176 votes

Nice hyperbole.

Second of all, Lethality is meant to suck against tanks. The only true complaints you could possible have here is the BC and LW upgrades. And even then, you're still going to have more than enough armor to reliably kill anyone with your Thornmails. Third, GP ignores armor, he doesn't shred.

ImTheSideKickFeb 13, 201713 votes

with the amount of life steal from Warlords and a BT? on top of all the shields and redemption? oh and the nerfs it took. yeah that doesn't happen anymore

you can literally have 83 lethality remove 25% of their armor and penetrate 45% of their armor on top of all the damages bonus from masteries and the hp difference

The Yetii RiderFeb 13, 20172 votes

You listed five items in the OP, none of them were BT. Are you suggesting you face carries who don't build boots?

Golden Tager XFeb 13, 201713 votes

Because top laners never build black cleaver, nah that never happens.

Darius Garen MonkeyKing JarvanIV Illaoi Olaf Pantheon Renekton Riven Trundle XinZhao

Yeah, never happens.

ItsOrvalFeb 13, 20175 votes

You forgot

Quinn Jayce Fiora Urgot Tryndamere Aatrox

Spaceman5pffFeb 13, 20174 votes

Don't forget

Graves Khazix Zed all building cleaver as well

Ariel the CruelFeb 13, 20174 votes

Janna item 3071 item 3123 item 3091 item 2045 item 3107 item 3069 Apparently I'm an ADC now. . . . Useless F'ing sheep.

AlienPrimateFeb 13, 20175 votes

If you actually do have 600 armor and they actually do have that exact build, you should be left with about 185 armor which is still around 65% damage reduction. I'm not saying I wouldn't mind a buff to tanks as I am a tank main myself, but if that build is actually a problem for Rammus the ADC or assassin is most likely so fed it doesn't really matter what you build on Rammus. I guarantee that if you have roughly the same amount of gold, Rammus will crush anyone going for that specific build.

dunder killFeb 13, 20171 votes

200 Armor is closer to 80% reduction so 185 is a bit more than 65%

AlienPrimateFeb 13, 20174 votes

2/3 = 66.666666% 80% is 400 armor

SiG DxDFeb 13, 20175 votes

Gangplank shred HAHA

doiminat0r3600Feb 13, 20173 votes

I beg to differ

IE: this vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuLksN9UaOk

Support BοtFeb 13, 20171 votes

I want to see items of those.

Try same with Riven, Yasuo, Yi and other NOT MARKSMAN ad.

RewtFeb 13, 20172 votes

The pure Lethality items there give you 50 lethality. Lethality is a base armor penetration value (ie 250 armor becomes 200 armor) black cleaver is % armor pen so building a metric fuck ton of armor is actually kind of counter intuitive. and finally Lord Dominks does damage to people with more HP than you. it gives 0 armor penetration.

Basically the item that is really fucking you here is the Black cleaver. The black cleaver is shredding 30% of your armor to make room for the 50 lethality. and you are a tank champ so you inevitably will have over 500 more HP than them so you are gonna have to deal with them doing 15% more damage to you.

In essence the only actually OP item here is the black cleaver. 300 hp. 50 ad, 20% cdr, and 30% armor shred? talk about an overloaded item.

Also champs have armor shreds in their kits because they are relics of season 5 and 6. where tanks roamed around 1 shotting squishies who were dumb enough not to just build tank Jinx and conform.

Unreformed ShacoFeb 13, 201713 votes

LDR gives 45% bonus armor pen you degenerate

KoggyStyleFeb 13, 201711 votes

you forgot 24 lethality from runes.

Spaceman5pffFeb 13, 20172 votes

item 3142 item 3814 item 3147 item 3071 item 3036 will penetrate 110% of purchased armor at the 400 armor point.

Explain how that is balanced, removes MORE THAN all of the purchased value of a stat?

Buying armor has AMPLIFIED the Physical damage dealt to you.

Glory ln DeathFeb 13, 20171 votes

It really hasnt, though. If you hadn't bought armor, most champions would effectively have 0 armor against that build. So, building as much armor as you did at least leaves you with just under your base armor (which is better than the 0 armor you would otherwise have). You probably would be better off building mostly health in this case, though.

Spaceman5pffFeb 13, 20172 votes

I guess it was poor wording. 110% is a BIT absurd though.

And that isn't a result of % pen, because that caps at like 75-80% (masteries) Lethality is just TOO damn strong in the lategame.