Shower thoughts: Can supports be strong without adc being overpowering?

Cowseed··10 votes·749 views

Basically I'm asking, is support so chained down to the adc role that if they're ever strong there strenthly will only be outputted optimally if they make there adcs a break the game class?

I haven't been playing the game long but if support is ever strong it's usually just one support - Janna, Lulu, Thresh or item item 3504 or item 3107. Then even if one of these things are strong it usually just collapses into adcs being strong.

You never really hear people call it 'support meta'. Either they make adcs strong or its just another item meta like ardent, coin and redemption.

Can the game ever be situated where the supports are strong because of something other than getting there adc fed the fastest. I'm not sure if there was such a meta but if there was please do share.

34 Comments

Mordepool9 votes

A support that supports the team perhaps is healthier Than a support that solely supports the adc

Cowseed1 votes

Yeah but these ones are rarely ever have a meta. It's usually just some spammy support thats strong all by their lonesome.

IcyPepper1 votes

Then maybe we need itemization to reflect helping the team more, rather than more aa modifiers and shields.

Rainfall1 votes

the weakness of an adc is in the laning phase so whats the point of a support that is not strong in the lanephase? the support would just get overpowered by initiators and ap supports

Mordepool1 votes

The point would be to have a support that doesn't cater to the ADC seeing how ADC fair well in any role I don't see why they need a hyperfocused support role

Rainfall1 votes

not all adcs are the same. just because lucian can be played mid does not mean that a champion like vayne could survive without good support assistance in the botlane . enhancers are too linear and too reliable right now to exist with powerfull itemisation simultaneously countering all assasins way too much.the adcs are not necesairily overly strong right now excluding 1 or 2 particular cases.

Oleandervine1 votes

Bard He doesn't cater to the ADC at all. In fact, his main focus is roaming, leaving health packets, and setting up ambush kills with his Magical Journey and his ult. His kit is in no way designed to specifically cater to ADCs, and in fact favors roaming mid laners and junglers more.

Jie Chen2 votes

Alistar, thresh, leona and blitz are all healthy for the game because they require skill to play well.

Healing supports aka the e-girl supports are not healthy for the game because they have so little gameplay options. The healing supports are always about staying alive as long as possible to push their buttons as much as possible and being non interactive aka avoiding conflict or pvp. The engage supports are about making plays happen that put themselves in danger that starts necessary champion interaction. AKA do something organic for the game.

Support meta has existed since season 1. So I don't know what you are complaining about.

Cowseed4 votes

So I don't know what you are complaining about.

[sg-lux-2]

I don't either because I don't remember complaining about anything.

Raoul1 votes

Support Meta...

By that you mean "There was always one player who had to be the ADCs slave because this game is for 5 players, but only offers 4 ways of income", right?

Bionic Jellyfish1 votes

{quoted}

Alistar, thresh, leona and blitz are all healthy for the game because they require skill to play well.

Healing supports aka the e-girl supports are not healthy for the game because they have so little gameplay options. The healing supports are always about staying alive as long as possible to push their buttons as much as possible and being non interactive aka avoiding conflict or pvp. The engage supports are about making plays happen that put themselves in danger that starts necessary champion interaction. AKA do something organic for the game.

Support meta has existed since season 1. So I don't know what you are complaining about.

For soraka heal, she need to hit enemies with q.

I dont understand what you mean but "avoid combat"

Athenes Lulu2 votes

Except it IS a support meta right now? Their itemization is so strong now that if you're not building them, you're almost trolling. Game outcomes are still decided by whichever team's support has ancient coin and finishes ardent censor first.

We supports have never been chained to anyone ever since our existence, and we have full control of who to support so we can win, and there's much more freedom especially in lower elos.

At least we can be on our own, don't need escorts at all just to live. These little shits called "ADCs" do because the moment they are alone, they die to uselessness. Barring some of the most OP outliers in the meta, that is.

Raoul4 votes

Its a Marksmen Meta, and it has always been a Marksmen Meta.

When the community claims its a X Meta, they literally say that X is now played as much as Marksmen are all the time.

If it would be a support Meta like you claim, why are only 4 Supports really played? All the items that are supposed to be "so strong" are only "so strong" when used on the ADC. Ardents on the Bruiser is totaly fine. They dont suddendly turn OP. Nope, just the ADC.

Look at the basic team setup, everyone but the ADC is picked to protect the ADC. That includes Supports. They only but Items that buf the ADC, nothing else.

Teridax682 votes

As long as the support remains tied to the marksman, no, supports will never be able to be strong without ADCs being overbearing, because ADCs will continue to be the sole, or at least heavily majoritary, beneficiaries of the power of supports.

The problem right now with the way supports are balanced and designed is that it's almost impossible for them to not cater to the marksman. Beyond some supports giving stat bonuses that only truly work on marksmen (i.e. Janna's bonus AD and Lulu's bonus AS), support itemization as a whole is currently heavily focused on making the support give the marksman more defenses and more power. On top of this, marksmen are currently made to be the VIP of either team at pretty much all times, forcing the support to focus pretty much exclusively on them. All of this creates an environment where any power given to the support invariably bleeds over to the marksman in large part, so it's impossible to buff supports without buffing marksmen as well.

In order to remedy this, I think two things need to change: first off, the design and itemization of supports, particularly enchanters, needs to change so that they have the option to properly cater to any class, or just offer tools that any class can benefit from. We already have quite a few supports who could work very well with non-marksmen (Bard's good with strong, independent early laners, Ivern and Taric are great with durable melee champions, etc.), yet who can still succeed in a marksman-centric environment. Second, I think we need to start giving supports incentives to support more than just the marksman: putting non-marksman carries on the same level of priority as marksmen could help, and I think late-game champions with weak early games such as Karthus, Nasus or Veigar would very much appreciate the assistance. If supports get to assist their whole team, rather than just one member of a single class, they'd be able to benefit from balance changes without buffing or nerfing other classes along the way.

Because of this, I do think it would be possible to have a support meta, but League would have to change in a few respects before we can get there. I strongly believe in the possibility of an environment where supports help out more allies beyond just the marksman, and I think the only reason why it might seem unrealistic now is because we've spent so much time in a marksman-support duo bot meta that any change to it has become difficult to even imagine. A meta in which the support legitimately had to choose which teammate to help, which opponent to shut down, and which kinds of plays to make, is one where supporting would be significantly more fun and interesting than one where supporting limits itself to buying the same items and spamming utility on the marksman.

GrievousFetus2 votes

Only if they're playmaking supports who set up plays and impact the game by directly interacting with the enemy.

Janna, Soraka, Lulu etc can never be strong without the ADC being even stronger because literally their entire purpose is to be stat batteries and reservoirs of effective hp for the ADC. Janna pressing E and giving her ADC 3k gold worth of stats is a LOT FUCKING DIFFERENT from Tahm helping any ally, not necessarily the ADC, reposition radically. Whether that's peeling for the ADC, flanking with their diver, or backdooring with their Nasus/Jax/Tryndamere. Bard's tunnel benefits the entire team, so does Thresh's lantern. Taric's ultimate and Braum's shield are all good examples. Xin is actually a sort of pseudo-support now. He may not be in the support position, but he has unique utility which bolsters the effectiveness of his allies and can be used to coordinate specific plays.

The Enchanter design is fundamentally flawed, and that's the entire reason Thresh created a schism upon release where all the pre-Thresh supports (except Blitz/Ali/Leona) were point and click stat and health batteries, clearly inspired by MMO healers which are primarily balanced around PvE, and playmaking supports like Thresh with unique utility revolving around manipulating positioning or granting special conditions.

LadyDevimon1 votes

I voted. Now give me my sitcker. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Cowseed1 votes

[sg-ahri-1]

Huh???!?! Who said anything about a sticker?

Durzaka1 votes

Supports that enable their team/make plays can be very strong without ADCs being OP.

Its when the protective supports are strong that is when ADCs are OP.

When Thresh, or Alistar are strong, ADCs are necessarily OP, but when Lulu or janna are strong, ADCs are almost always strong as well.

Cowseed1 votes

Ok let me put it this way. At the moment you have people playing bot because they believe it's easier to carry from there. It also looks, LOOKS, to most people that its adcs that are strong.

Has support ever had this kind of attention or limelight. Where people would actually queue up for support even though it's not their main because they think support is the most important in the game. Maybe what I'm actually asking is if can support ever be acknowledged as a whole as a strong role.

Durzaka1 votes

Simple answer, is no. Because unlike Dota 2, no matter how powerful/skilled your support is in League, you can't carry the game from there is your carries are dead weight.

Not to mention Support is not just a popular role in general, so even if it was OP, people wouldnt flock to go play it.

DariusDemiurge1 votes

Wasn't season 3 basically the support meta? Or was it 4....

Cowseed1 votes

How did it work though. What was the situation like?

DeathBurst1 votes

Any [Some Class] Meta is bad. When the game is in a good state, it's not because it's in [Good Class] Meta, it's because all classes are balanced. And usually, that means people on the boards are split in factions crying at each other "it's Class A Meta", "no you dumbsh*t, it's Class B Meta".

So do I think the game can have a Support Meta? No, but it doesn't matter, that won't be a good thing.

Now, do I think that Support can be a satisfying position with a strong impact on the game and the ability to carry games (i.e. "be strong") WITHOUT making ADC overpowered? Yes. Because really, Supports don't carry by making ADC overpowered. They carry by warding, foiling enemy ambushes and great decision making, calling the right objective at the right time, etc.

Cowseed1 votes

I don't really play or follow metas but I am interested in the social aspect of them. Because at the end of the day its only really X meta because everyone wants to play X now. If it's an assassin meta people will queue top, jungle or mid then pick an assassin same with tanks. If it's an adc meta then people queue bot trying to be the ones that carry their games. But if its support that's strong.... then people just queue for bot again.

DeathBurst1 votes

Yeah true, and you can say it's a bit sad and a bad sign for the state of Supports.

However, it's not really important to solve that, because it's a problem that happens only when we're in a Support Meta, and it's not desirable to be in a Support Meta in the first place (or any [Class] Meta, for that matters).

Raoul1 votes

Well... no.

Right now, we have exactly 4 Supports that are considered strong picks, Janna, Soraka, Sona and Taric, and all of them literally just leech from ADCs being overpowered. Their whole gameplay is around the ADC. Rush Ardents, stay with your ADC, ignore rest of the team.

But they are also the only supports that are in a good spot right now. Tank Supports are dead because even tanks with money cant tank ADCs for more than 5 seconds, Engage and Poke supports are dead because once they are in range of the ADC, they lose half their HP and cant do anything about it... and wel, that only leaves utility supports who can stay far out of reach of the enemy ADC while making sure their own is stronger than the enemys...

Catastrop1 votes

Yes they can, Riot just needs to let them actually help other classes.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

No, there will never be a support meta that doesn't break marksmen. Supports are XP starved and gold starved. If the game ever shifts to where they can afford to have an impact, either another class will have a better advantage or their items are breaking ADCs.

Mawootad1 votes

They were strong as fuck earlier this year when mage supports were meta and ADC in 2017 was a meme.

Truly Prideful1 votes

If there were more support items to empower things like mages or your allied tanks then sure. Mage style supports have been very strong before, but the community never likes when that happens. Overall I think it's just an itemization issue, if there were things for synergy with AP champions maybe you would see an Azir or Cass go bot and be played in the duo.

Zone of Endless1 votes

Support can't be strong without making anyone overpowered. That's sorta their job is to make their team stronger. If support are stronger because of their kit or items then the team as a whole will be strong/overpowered as well.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

Supports? yes. Enchanters? only if they're breaking another role.

If your whole thing is making someone else stronger then you will never be strong yourself.

In a situation where everyone is doing what they should and nothing more nothing less without enchanters the ones who will benefit more from an enchanter being added are High DPS classes like ADC (including melee's like Yi, though they still are melee). There's no need for an assassin to have more burst if he already can 100-0, upping dps does make sense because it actually makes them kill faster. That's why Enchanters offer so much to DPS characters, i see everyone bitching about adc but have you seen a Xin go ham with a janna at his side?

Khristophoros1 votes

If they are more generally good at making plays and less about buffing the fuck out of one person that would be fine.

Titanium701 votes

No not really - If ADCs are weak you abuse this by picking Brand Zyra and firends. If ADCs are strong you can win game by dedicating an entire class on helping them even more.

But you can't really buff an Enchanter to a point where he's viable while the keeping the ADC in a place where he is not busted WITH said dude AND ok to play without that dude.

However - I consider this entire discussion lackluster. A) Coin is broken compared to the others - which elimates most of the compedition. B) Tristana/Twitch/Kog are FAR to strong early on to justify the stupid lategame they have and vice versa.

This alone defines the meta and I have no idea how thing would work without this obvious unablance in the game.

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