0/1/1 vs 1/0/1 and a 19 CS difference equals 650 Gold Bounty

Syrile·Jan 25, 2019·93 votes·18,984 views

Soo.. In GRF vs DWG, top lane match-up, Jayce has a 650g bounty despite not having a kill, having a death and the same number of assists as the enemy Viktor. So, 0/1/1 vs 1/0/1 (300 gold bonus from the kill alone) and a 19 CS lead at one point, providing a 650 gold bounty. Even if you put the average CS at 20g per CS, this is not even close to the amount of gold given by the bounty, much less the gold Viktor has for the kill (which gives no bounty).

So this is not a catch-up mechanic at all. This is a "you are farming better so we want you to be put behind by a ton when someone kills you" mechanic. It is not even slightly balanced and is ridiculous.

69 Comments

TesladinJan 25, 201939 votes

Yeah that was the fishiest of their new ideas

SyrileJan 25, 201922 votes

{quoted}

Yeah that was the fishiest of their new ideas

I cannot believe that it is was simply "miscalculated." In fact, it is impossible to believe this if you believe they even, one time, put the numbers in a machine or played a single game of League ever, in their life before putting it on a live server or even the PBE.

This was a deliberate troll and is nothing but a game-ruining change.

Nea104Jan 25, 20194 votes

They can't do any math: no theoric calculation, no computing simulation, no empirical testing / data analysis. They proved themselves being totally incompetent at their own job thousands of times.

That's why you see buff/nerf like twice or half the previous value (Brand 1 year ago, Nasus now, Tahm cd, Yasuo's announced ulti buff and so on). There's no technologic nor scientific field or application where you modifiy a whatever system that way, basically as a woodcutter uses his axe. The only method that could be similar, but it's not the case, is a sort of cut-and-try, where you intentionally try to find the 2 extreme limits of a feature (ie. overbuffing and overnerfing something), and then proceed to find a fair mean value in between.

These guys don't know anything about applied math :P

UncaringNonchalaJan 25, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yeah that was the fishiest of their new ideas

Hard to say for sure though, since every idea they've had for the past 2 years has been fishy.

Sheemo on e621Jan 27, 20191 votes

implying that riot had any normal ideas the past couple of months [sg-zephyr]

PoskeJan 25, 201914 votes

Its anti good player mechanic. One of many league has

HensetsuJan 25, 20198 votes

Depends how you look at it.

Like if you watch the whole game you'll see Nuguri at multiple points have +20 CS with no bounty.

We also don't know exactly how much of that CS is minions compared to jungle camps.

Nuguri secured a turret plating.

The point you're bringing up is kind of the mid game where the map has opened.

I don't like the bounty system, but I feel like you're being a bit nitpicky here with your specific example.

Votable JesterJan 26, 20191 votes

I think his point is that that specific example shouldn't come up. Regardless of other reasonable examples, one unreasonable example is a problem.

I don't know all the details though (for instance the turret plating and jungle camps and all that), so it could be much more reasonable than implied. Even so if all the details included in the post are true, it seems a bit ridiculous.

SanKakUJan 25, 20194 votes

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SyrileJan 25, 201911 votes

{quoted}

I honestly don't care if your presented facts are true or false or or if it feels fair to players on average. I play with mostly balanced builds and mostly balanced champions. I try not to die and I try to get myself and my allies kills. Increasing bounties for various champions benefits me regardless of whether the numbers are in my favor. The fact of the matter is my careful strategizing is securing bounties for my team and denying them for the enemy team, so such changes only benefit me from my perspective.

If you are reckless and put little thought into the strategies you're working with, then it's to be expected that increased bounties hit a sore spot for you, whether such bounties are fair or not, you're going to feel like you're being treated unfairly. Maybe you should adjust how you play instead of whining about getting messed up by the changes.

It is not a matter of not wanting to learn a new strategy. In fact, there is very little strategy in getting a kill in current League. Also, I will say, if you really want to discuss something, probably best not to waste your breath insulting people while doing it. That just invalidates your entire statement more than being incorrect does. What it is, is a clearly broken change to the game that even Riot employees make fun of because it is not consistent with the way the game has been meant to be played. You specifically get rewarded by a larger amount, for doing less work than someone else.

SanKakUJan 25, 20193 votes

[deleted]

SyrileJan 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

There's no insult in my comment. I called your post whining because that's clearly what it is. I've seen no evidence of the new bounty system having numbers clearly out of place with what they mentioned they would be. And there are a large number of players commenting here not just me that you are ignoring important variables.

If you think your win rate is not suffering but you think there's still something unfair going on then I don't know what to tell you. It doesn't seem like you actually want to rant about the game being fair enough or not but you just want to rant about nonsense.

Except you literally insulted me. And if you have not seen numbers out of place, then how about watch the game I posted about? What I said is exactly what happened. Even the commentators make fun of it because it is absurd. The system punishes proper play to help make up for people who are bad.

ĘsdeathJan 25, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I honestly don't care if your presented facts are true or false or or if it feels fair to players on average. I play with mostly balanced builds and mostly balanced champions. I try not to die and I try to get myself and my allies kills. Increasing bounties for various champions benefits me regardless of whether the numbers are in my favor. The fact of the matter is my careful strategizing is securing bounties for my team and denying them for the enemy team, so such changes only benefit me from my perspective.

If you are reckless and put little thought into the strategies you're working with, then it's to be expected that increased bounties hit a sore spot for you, whether such bounties are fair or not, you're going to feel like you're being treated unfairly. Maybe you should adjust how you play instead of whining about getting messed up by the changes.

If you don't care then why did you even answer him with literal bullshit? By the way, you provided little to nothing other than "if you don't work hard [mentally] you deserve a bounty up yo'ass."

SanKakUJan 25, 20193 votes

[deleted]

ĘsdeathJan 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What are you even talking about? I swear, so many of the people that flame me for no reason on these boards are from EUW.

He's claiming that him dying gives the enemy way too much gold, right? So my solution is to simply die less and then he doesn't have to worry about the unfair bounty, which doesn't exist in the first place as far as I know. Sure, there might be a bug somewhere for a bounty rarely providing too much gold, but I doubt it and that doesn't seem to be what he's trying to assert here. And that's why his post is BS and my comment isn't.

He isn't exactly complaining (at least not directly or meaningfully) that the bounty system rewards enemies way too much (when you die). What he is primarily complaining is the fact that farming punishes you, when it shouldn't. He just [wrongly (imo)] illustrated it in an example where they were 1/0/1 (with no bounty) vs a 0/1/1 with 650 G bounty - Which probably justifies your misconception on the whole topic. However, to a certain degree surely dying less would have fixed the situation ... or maybe not. Because the 0/1 Jayce would be still farming (probably better tbh) waves and gathering up an unnecessary, unexplainable and obnoxious bounty up his ass all because he is farming. It's unjustifiable and he is being punished for having a greater skill than [ALL] his opponents (which is farming - It's critical and useful knowledge in this game).

The fact Jayce is 0/1 vs a 1/0/1 only re-enforces this view, although blindly hiding it behind the idea that we are probably complaining about the fact of dying rewarding enemies too much instead of the bounty system affecting farming in general.

Hope I have cleared up any confusions, though, saying "I honestly don't care if your presented facts are true or false or or if it feels fair to players on average" does not feel really caring and doesn't show much interest from your part towards this issue - Thus my answer.

By the way thanks for judging me by my regional positioning and nationality. You must be better just because of that, right?

SanKakUJan 25, 20192 votes

[deleted]

ĘsdeathJan 26, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Your post is not particularly clear in what it is attempting to accomplish, and I'm not judging you. I'm just wondering why you guys are the ones acting so xenophobic. I swear, every single time I am posting a legitimate opinion, someone is there to flame me, and a lot of the time, it's someone from EUW. I can't make this up. You could have just posted this...rewrite of my post or whatever it is the first time, and maybe made it easier to read, too. Instead you flamed me, and then you posted this and added on that unnecessary part at the end that just validates my observation.

I don't think you understand just how different NA people are. I wasn't talking to you over in EUW, I was addressing the NA post here. That's why it's so annoying that you butt in here and call me rude and all that when I was just trying to communicate to that other guy, not any of you, and not anyone else on these boards for that matter.

I have never had a problem with people in NA but somehow, you seem like an exception (or the ["muh! I am always the] victim here["] kind of person). Must be because you are different right? Please ... How exactly do you expect people to embrace your act as "communicating" when you literally went straight ahead starting!!! the topic with this sentence "I honestly don't care if your presented facts are true or false or or if it feels fair to players on average." That's like being in a court as a jury, standing up at the very end of the court session (considering you even had such a right) and saying: "I don't care about any of the arguments and statements displayed here, but my decision will be this one: [random decision]". That's how I embrace your statement ... more precisely, that's how your words make it look like.

I wasn't talking to you over in EUW, I was addressing the NA post here

Not sure what's your intent with this, but I will go ahead and say that probably you are telling me I should shut up because you are posting in NA - Or simply telling me just because you are in NA you can say anything, and EUW-located (I came from the US btw) people should refrain from answering you ... If those are not your intents, then I seriously wonder why that sentence is in there. But that's enough for me to close this situation and not respond you anymore, after all, seems I am communicating with an individual who seems to like judging people by their regional stereotypes.

SanKakUJan 26, 20192 votes

[deleted]

ĘsdeathJan 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You're being absolutely ridiculous. It's like you have no comprehension of the difference between facts and opinions.

Let me make this exceedingly clear for you and if you still don't get it, then you should just admit that you haven't even bothered to read any of my messages properly.

It is my aggressive opinion that increased bounties make the game so much more fair than how the game used to be.

It is amazing to me that you keep throwing up completely irrelevant walls of text and have absolutely no point of your own other than to try to paint me as some kind of horrible person. It's as if "I don't care" is some kind of horrifying trigger phrase for you. Well, I'm sorry I triggered you, but you need to learn to read messages properly instead of being triggered by phrases within perfectly normal sentences.

Seems the judgement of regional stereotype has suddenly disappeared, guess you indirectly agree with it.

It's as if "I don't care" is some kind of horrifying trigger phrase for you

You just proved you didn't understand anything I told you (plus, you didn't read anything - Maybe work out on yourself before telling what others need to learn ...?). But that's fine, some people tend to require more time to process things than others. But, in case you can't compete with it, I will give you a resume: There's no opinion when you nullify everyone else's ideas / statements before you literally give out your opinion. That isn't civil, nor even communicative at all (but you insist it is totally normal ... and I am the one being ridiculous ... lel). And also, I didn't say your phrase has/doesn't have bad/normal sentences, I said it gives the wrong idea. But anyway, I won't bother continuing this conversation towards an aggressive individual. After all ... you just said it: "my aggressive opinion" (thanks for burying yourself).

//::: SHUTTING OFF ::://

Aloexx RatfootJan 26, 20191 votes

Truth is your being a dick for no reason other then the internet. In all your posts you dont seem to be making a point, just personal attacks

ĘsdeathJan 26, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aloexx Ratfoot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EscQiqQM,comment-id=000300010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-26T15:26:47.123+0000)

Truth is your being a dick for no reason other then the internet. In all your posts you dont seem to be making a point, just personal attacks

If you say so ... I already said what I had to say.

ROYALR3IGNJan 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Killing enemies lately is pretty hard with all the mobility present in modern day champion kits. Have you tried killing Pyke recently when he gets to a high level? It can feel like a nightmare if he's good. Imagine just getting enough gold for a Longsword for him while in the current system he's worth over 1000 gold.

Riot's fault. Stop with the mobility creep. Lock mobility down to 1 ability. Ahri is a perfect example of this. She has good mobility, and yet it's not unfair and she can't/isn't spamming it every 7 seconds.

The addition of bounties based on minion kills doesn't appear to be out of order.

Being able to lane is a skill. Learning wave management, being able to CS under pressure, learning when to trade, and learning when to NOT take should be rewarded. We should reward players for taking the time to learn how to play the game properly, not punishing players for playing it well. This is way out of order in terms of scaling and . If Riot really wants to make a change in this direction it definitely needs to be toned down.

Do you realize what this means? It means that if you're ahead, you can let your allies catch up and then your personal bounty won't increase so much.

???? Csing has nothing to do with letting your allies catch up?? If you're top you have 80 cs at 10 min, but your bot sucks ass and has only 30 at 10 min it has nothing to do with you being selfish. You're just playing better than your bot lane. Also if you're referring to the late game scenario, and the differential is the same, I'd rather have the person that actually has CS continue taking that cs cause they're more likely to carry than the 100 cs bot lane at 25 min. Odds are that type of player isn't gonna carry anyways. No offence you can't always share resources and expect to win especially if the skill gap between players is high. It's actually more efficient for that jax to hit that 4th item vs an crit adc getting their zeal item 35 min in.

I got a 400 gold bounty for a kill. You know why? The person I killed spent more time killing minions than fighting our team.

Most people do usually spend more time farming than laning. This is true even at a professional level.

So he didn't know how to fight a proper team fight and died.

Spending more time farming does not mean he doesn't know how to fight in a team fight.

He's playing selfishly and getting punished for it. The same kind of player I imagine you to be.

It's not selfish to farm up and get your items to spike before fighting. Its common sense; you fight when you're strong and avoid it when you're weak. Otherwise stronger early game champs will abuse you if you keep diving willy nilly into them. This is intended as a shot at who you're talking to but he's doing the right thing.

Let me break down the math for you. A normal bounty of 300 was applied because he had no champion kills recently. But, his gold from minion kills was between 400 and 550 more gold more than our team's average gold gain from minion kills. So 100 gold was added onto his bounty. If he had a kill streak of 2 kills then he would have given me another 150 gold, for a total of 550 gold. In order for him to be worth another 150 gold without getting any champion kills, he would have had to kill approximately 450(minus whatever the true value was between 550 and 400) gold worth of minions without anyone on our team killing any minions at all. Approximately doubling his profit advantage only earns his killer enough extra gold to buy 2 control wards.

The game has changed a lot in recent years, and every time Riot makes a very good change, people find a way to pretend it's a bad change. It amazes me that you have so many up-votes on this post.

No no no no no no no no no no no no. it's not a good change. People take issue with this change because there's literally no other way to create an advantage without risking death. This change hurts the people who are playing the game well, and rewards people making mistakes and not farming. That's why it's an issue.

I think tbh even kill bounties should be lowered, and kills should also grant less gold overall. This will slow down the game and encourage people to make better macro decisions instead of the constant burst - one shot meta we have right now.

There's probably gonna be an edit to this post cause I'm at work and don't have time to properly revise.

WolfeurJan 25, 20194 votes

The bounty amount comprises the usual kill gold. The bounty itself is really just 350.

Also, the CS difference is calculated based on the average of the enemy team, not just the lane opponent.

VerxintJan 26, 20191 votes

So with 20g per cs, 19 cs is 380 gold for a 350 gold bounty. That's still ridiculous

WolfeurJan 26, 20191 votes

the CS difference is calculated based on the average of the enemy team, not just the lane opponent.

MLDzXnRRRJan 25, 20193 votes

Don't measure champion vs champion cs and kills. It's based on how well do both team and how ahead is a certain player compared to everyone

SyrileJan 25, 201912 votes

{quoted}

Don't measure champion vs champion cs and kills. It's based on how well do both team and how ahead is a certain player compared to everyone

DWG was behind so that is not any indication at all. But no matter what, there is zero excuse for providing a bounty higher than the amount of gold that the CS lead provided, in addition to already being behind in kills and likely other things considering the death.

SweedishGunnerJan 25, 20193 votes

Farming well can legitimatly be a bad thing which is insane.

FixHealsRemoveGWJan 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Farming well can legitimatly be a bad thing which is insane.

Especially against kennen top who hits you with klepto everytime you take cs.

SavvyalJan 26, 20193 votes

Players should not be punished for csing better than their enemy laners.

DuskDaUmbreonJan 25, 20192 votes

It's not just the 1v1, but their CS compared to the entire enemy team's average CS (not counting support)

SyrileJan 25, 201926 votes

{quoted}

It's not just the 1v1, but their CS compared to the entire enemy team's average CS (not counting support)

Except I already addressed this, in multiple ways. DWG was behind, not ahead. And no matter how you break it down, that person had a bounty that was worth more than whatever tiny bit of gold they were "ahead." It is, in no way, balanced. Nor was there any attempt to balance this. Even the commentators make fun of it because they know how stupid this is.

TsunamiSSJan 25, 20192 votes

They buffed turrets (modestly, at best) and needed the classic compensation buff(s). So they placed waves worth of gold on turret plating as well as implementing the bounty system to arrive at a net buff to snowball mechanics.

I used to be a Riot apologist but at this point, they are either inept at listening to feedback, or are purposefully taking the game in the direction of shorter overall game time to appeal to a larger base. If the latter is the case, then its up to me to decide if I want to keep playing or not.

MjaumjaukittenzJan 26, 20192 votes

Had a 0/0/0 Lucian with 200 cs around 22 minutes who had 1000G bounty.

VelgamJan 26, 20192 votes

Just played a match vs a poppy, nearing the end of the game she was 1/6/2, she was farming heavy, had 213 while I had 143, she had a country of 550g....this is the dumbest system ever, for FARMING you raise your bounty? that needs to be removed.

MarshbouyJan 25, 20191 votes

yeah I understand the idea behind the changes to the bounty system but the values are screwy.

SyrileJan 25, 20192 votes

{quoted}

yeah I understand the idea behind the changes to the bounty system but the values are screwy.

I even disagree with the change entirely but no matter what, the numbers are seriously an issue. They make zero sense at all. Even if you can justify giving out a bounty (which I do not like) for CS, giving out more gold than the CS earned is ridiculous.

WolfeurJan 25, 20192 votes

Even if you can justify giving out a bounty (which I do not like) for CS, giving out more gold than the CS earned is ridiculous.

Except it literally doesn't… You build a bounty of 50g for your first 250g of CS difference plus 50g for every extra 150g earned that way. The bounty is equal to 20-33% of the gold gathered that way, so shut up, please.

SyrileJan 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Except it literally doesn't… You build a bounty of 50g for your first 250g of CS difference plus 50g for every extra 150g earned that way. The bounty is equal to 20-33% of the gold gathered that way, so shut up, please.

Saying shutup does not make your post accurate. I posted the actual numbers in the game, for a person on a losing team. Go look it up before you decide to make a comment about what you feel is truth over what is actually there, on screen, that the commentators are mocking.

WolfeurJan 27, 20191 votes

Saying shutup does not make your post accurate.

No, saying how bounties work does. Have you ever bothered to look up how bounties work exactly?

SyrileJan 27, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No, saying how bounties work does. Have you ever bothered to look up how bounties work exactly?

You are saying numbers based on something that is written somewhere. What I posted is video proof, of an actual professional game, watched by hundreds of thousands of people, commentated on by Riot's own employees. What I said, actually happened. Is known by hundreds of thousands of people. Numbers on a website mean nothing compared to actual reality.

WolfeurJan 28, 20191 votes

Numbers on a website mean nothing compared to actual reality.

Oh sorry, I guess the patch notes have been mistaken, then…

The reality is there, and what I said is how it works. That you don't understand the context enough is irrelevant, that's how it works.

SyrileJan 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Oh sorry, I guess the patch notes have been mistaken, then…

The reality is there, and what I said is how it works. That you don't understand the context enough is irrelevant, that's how it works.

Then tell Riot how it works. Specifically, prove that it did not happen, in a professional game, recorded, watched by hundreds of thousands of people, commentated on by Riot's own employees. Prove the actual reality of what happened wrong.

WolfeurJan 28, 20191 votes

I'm not saying it did not happen. I'm saying that it's normal that it happens. There is a simple system that calculates your bounty, and whether you accept it or not is your problem.

Bounties on CS are basically the same as bounties on kills, even on the gold-earned-to-bounty ratio, yet no one ever complained about those…

SyrileJan 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying it did not happen. I'm saying that it's normal that it happens. There is a simple system that calculates your bounty, and whether you accept it or not is your problem.

Bounties on CS are basically the same as bounties on kills, even on the gold-earned-to-bounty ratio, yet no one ever complained about those…

Except the formula is nonsense and is way more beneficial for the enemy than proper farming. As was pointed out by Riot's own employees. This is not me not accepting it. It is a fact that the system makes no sense.

ZaneShadowJan 25, 20191 votes

1 minion averages 20 Gold. 20x20 means about 400 gold advantage plus Xp. Then 1 kill=300 gold.

You were about 700 Gold ahead of your opponent, and a 650 Gold bounty. I’d say that’s too close, but not by much. A much more appropriate bounty would have been 550-600 Gold.

Also, was your team stomping? Bounties scale harder on teams that are winning multiple places at the same time. If your team was winning 7 to 1 for instance, the bounty might be explained.

FletchJan 25, 20191 votes

I went 0/0/0 as Kayn with 0 damage dealt to champions and had a 1000 gold bounty

ModAcademy KaynJan 25, 20193 votes

It's not that I don't believe you, as much as I'm in awe that you managed no damage to champions at all, as Kayn. The heck was their jungler doing.